Rodnok
Prince
I like the new Storytellers build-ups (just 1 education point early), thanks for it. I prepared a rant when I discovered they give 6 per turn and there is no limit for them, few hours later there was another version, thanks TB 
Range and sources of education property
- Thread starter Koshling
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
lol... yeah I'd noticed it was somewhat problematic and Faustmouse pointed it out as well. I probably need to do the same (tech limits) for the crime and disease buildups too - I'll note that to be done here.
Noriad2
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,153
I found that the current Education property makes the game a lot more challenging at Deity/nightmare. So well done!
What I'm missing though is an Educational Achievement from a culture hero.
The historical precedent would be Charlemagne (the "Father of Europe") who conquered a large part of Europe during the Middle Ages. He also loved books. Europe was mostly illiterate at that time, and Charlemagne set up a series of schools and libraries that had a major effect on European literacy level.
P.S. I dont think Charlemagne is in de game at this moment as a hero. Nor his ancestor Charles Martel who stopped the Muslim invasion of Western Europe.
What I'm missing though is an Educational Achievement from a culture hero.
The historical precedent would be Charlemagne (the "Father of Europe") who conquered a large part of Europe during the Middle Ages. He also loved books. Europe was mostly illiterate at that time, and Charlemagne set up a series of schools and libraries that had a major effect on European literacy level.
P.S. I dont think Charlemagne is in de game at this moment as a hero. Nor his ancestor Charles Martel who stopped the Muslim invasion of Western Europe.
IronClaymore
Warlord
Charlemagne could arguably have done any of the National Achievements, not just education. But a lot of the actual civilisation leaders were the same. As an aside it's always fun to build a hero (or even better, birth a general) who is the exact same person as the leader I am actively fighting!
An education achievement producing some baseline +education property per turn is all fine. Yeah, it's good, whatever, spend a hero to get positive effects of high education or avoid negative effects of low education, easy. But it's boring! We create a problem and create a hero effect to solve it and return to normal.
Maybe create something like Ordinance: Education (use a different name) in every city. But an education foundation is only as good as the people who staff it. Obviously this would require fixing up that stubborn graphical limit to assigned specialists, and the ordinance could do some minor +education on its own, but leave several slots open for potential Teacher specialists.
And you don't want to micromanage those guys either, as in only use a specialist as a teacher when you're close to the threshold for the next education level. They'll have some other benefit of their own, like a high (+4 or +5) Great Person bonus and a +1 science maybe?
If game mechanics are changed or added the AI needs to be changed. Sadly the AI has no real knowledge about PropertyBuildings and other AutoBuildings.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
hmm... I thought Koshling had included some consideration for that. I was noticing that the operational range for Education may need to be tweaked in the xml (or the way he setup unit evaluations needs much closer analysis.) We'll have to soon take a deeper look at what he did (or did not do) to let the building and tech evaluation mechanisms know about the value of property control factors.
Properties only have the AIWeight tag to force on the AI to handle them. The AI has no code to see e.g. the real difference 'caused by PropertyBuildings' between -500 and +500 Disease.
Since we have no such code the AIWeight must be changed in case of changes to the effects or the amount of those PropertyBuildings or other related changes.
Rodnok
Prince
But they do not play at Deity level
By the way, this means that +5 just for the civic (and no cost of revolt at higher difficulties) is too much. Games shouldn't have no brainers. Even at deity/nightmare the education swings to 100+ after oral tradition quickly (considering you build other no-brainer buildings), maybe even 250+.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Right and I'd thought we'd been keeping up on that to a fair degree but I do need to understand more how the AI weight should be established properly. I was thinking education in particular needs a deeper look into with that.
I agree. The civic bonus is simply too strong to fit with the current model and should be adjusted.But they do not play at Deity level
By the way, this means that +5 just for the civic (and no cost of revolt at higher difficulties) is too much. Games shouldn't have no brainers. Even at deity/nightmare the education swings to 100+ after oral tradition quickly (considering you build other no-brainer buildings), maybe even 250+.
I'd very much appreciate it if those playtesting could give some specific value adjustment suggestions to civics (and negatives from buildings hasn't been addressed either.) I just need to know which civics to change and what values to adjust them to based on play experiences.
I am sorry but I have tried a few starts now and the negative Education right from the beginning is just no fun at all. If trying a harder game difficulty on large map and Eternity game speed it basically takes 500 or more turns before you can even start growing your city. 500 turns of watching the game do absolutely nothing other than tick up a few tech points per turn, and maybe have a unit or two to wander around with and get killed against animals or barbarians (as you can do no better than 1 strength units).
No fun at all.
I understand the thought of negative Education but from a game perspective it makes no sense as I would think 0 (zero) Education would be as far negative, lethargy, as one can get.
Having negative Education and the negative Education Buildings feels like the citizens are actively going around destroying ideas, killing people with some creativity, burning anything that can hold knowledge, breaking apart tools, in short destroying anything that could help educate the people in any way.
Just having negative Education per a turn by turn basis is ok, meaning you need to overcome the lethargy to have it start growing above 0, but having it reach negative numbers, grant negative Education buildings, and thereby destroy a civilizations potential for developing in the early game, sorry, tried a few times and it is still just boring.
Cheers
No fun at all.
I understand the thought of negative Education but from a game perspective it makes no sense as I would think 0 (zero) Education would be as far negative, lethargy, as one can get.
Having negative Education and the negative Education Buildings feels like the citizens are actively going around destroying ideas, killing people with some creativity, burning anything that can hold knowledge, breaking apart tools, in short destroying anything that could help educate the people in any way.
Just having negative Education per a turn by turn basis is ok, meaning you need to overcome the lethargy to have it start growing above 0, but having it reach negative numbers, grant negative Education buildings, and thereby destroy a civilizations potential for developing in the early game, sorry, tried a few times and it is still just boring.
Cheers
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Noted. Many have applauded the same thing you complain about. So I suppose the compromise would be to play on an easier setting... or adjust the xml on your end. I'm not lacking any compassion here, just saying in balance to the rest of the comments made on the subject, we'll be needing a lot more standing in agreement with you to invite change.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
It is only fine if you play with TD and have a rival near by. Otherwise it would be really really frustrating I guess. I enjoyed it, but only with tech diffusion.
Unfortunately on easier settings I steam-roll the AI, or rather if I go down to where negative education does not break my fun the first few hundred turns or so then the AI is no match.
I already went down to Emperor setting (from Deity) on Nightmare setting.
Maybe it is just the Nightmare that overdoes the negative Education by Pop?
How about having the first pop exempt from negative Education?
Does not Tech Diffusion only work when you have met other civs? I usually play with farther between starting civs and I seldom meet other nations during this period where I would need TD due to Educational minus, and even IF I did (and used TD) I highly doubt sucha system should be used to make up for lack of Education. Seems silly if the population is not interested at all in learning (-Education) they still learn from other nations (whom if on Minor Civ Start they hate and are at war with).
I have adjusted the XML on my end, removed the minus education buildings and pushed the positive ones further along in the Education Scale (once removed, so start on 25 for EQ1).
Cheers
I already went down to Emperor setting (from Deity) on Nightmare setting.
Maybe it is just the Nightmare that overdoes the negative Education by Pop?
How about having the first pop exempt from negative Education?
Does not Tech Diffusion only work when you have met other civs? I usually play with farther between starting civs and I seldom meet other nations during this period where I would need TD due to Educational minus, and even IF I did (and used TD) I highly doubt sucha system should be used to make up for lack of Education. Seems silly if the population is not interested at all in learning (-Education) they still learn from other nations (whom if on Minor Civ Start they hate and are at war with).
I have adjusted the XML on my end, removed the minus education buildings and pushed the positive ones further along in the Education Scale (once removed, so start on 25 for EQ1).
Cheers
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Nightmare does have the goal of being impossible to win. Regular Deity is fairly tough with education but not overwhelming to the point of ridiculous.
Yes, negative education levels can counter the additional free specialists attained in other ways.
Still, education should never be perceived as impossible. Rush immediately for storytellers and you can build sources of education to your heart's content. They will likely pay for themselves despite the upkeep costs. Right out the gate if you make your goal to address education, you should find you will not be completely shut down with research progress. It IS possible... its just very demanding of being addressed as the ultimate priority in the first stage if you're on the hardest settings.
Yes, negative education levels can counter the additional free specialists attained in other ways.
Still, education should never be perceived as impossible. Rush immediately for storytellers and you can build sources of education to your heart's content. They will likely pay for themselves despite the upkeep costs. Right out the gate if you make your goal to address education, you should find you will not be completely shut down with research progress. It IS possible... its just very demanding of being addressed as the ultimate priority in the first stage if you're on the hardest settings.
It is the rushing for Storytellers, and to Oral Tradition (which completely removes every problem I have with negative Education completely), that is frustrating and takes too long, at 5 science per turn on Eternity it almost "forever".
Cheers
Cheers
Noriad2
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,153
Early in game, turns go fast. So it doesn't take *that* much more time, compared to the length of an average game, as you can just "enter" through. However, I usually play snail speed as that is the recommended setting.
On deity/nightmare it gives the AIs some time to establish themselves so they are not complete push-overs.
Until recently, C2C was considerably easier than vanilla BTS, and as a result, I usually abandoned a game every time as soon as I had some ocean-sailing capacity and explored most of the world, and concluded (again) that I was so much ahead of the rest of the world that my victory was already inevitable. Education changed that a lot.
Early in the game turns go fast, yes, but it is still 500+ turns and a game I feel should be fun from the start, not after having gotten past a few artificial speed bumps.
The negative Education buildings for a player do give the AI a chance to get a good head start BUT I feel that it would be better to fix the AI to be more competitive than setting up artificial means for it to get enough of a head start to be competitive for a longer time. If the AI is tweaked enough over and over again and possibly fixed at some point then the various artificial bumps that have been set in might need changing again anyway.
In several threads the issue of realism vs playability and fun has come up, and I feel this is one such. Yes, if looking for that early challenge of struggling and coming aeons behind the AI (enough that if it learns to attack cities again it will waste any player completely) the negative Education
start is perfect. How many play for that?
Maybe I should go back to the normal difficulty levels then, if the Education is not "fixed" for the Nightmare properly?
Cheers
The negative Education buildings for a player do give the AI a chance to get a good head start BUT I feel that it would be better to fix the AI to be more competitive than setting up artificial means for it to get enough of a head start to be competitive for a longer time. If the AI is tweaked enough over and over again and possibly fixed at some point then the various artificial bumps that have been set in might need changing again anyway.
In several threads the issue of realism vs playability and fun has come up, and I feel this is one such. Yes, if looking for that early challenge of struggling and coming aeons behind the AI (enough that if it learns to attack cities again it will waste any player completely) the negative Education
start is perfect. How many play for that?
Maybe I should go back to the normal difficulty levels then, if the Education is not "fixed" for the Nightmare properly?
Cheers
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
If I understand it correctly SO has not done any work on Nightmare for sometime now.
JosEPh
JosEPh
