Rate the Policies - part II: The Religious schism

[kaspergm]

Thanx to all who voted so far in part I. This time I'll pitch two incompatible policy trees against each other: Piety and Rationalism.

When voting, I'll ask you to evaluate the strength of the social policy mainly in context of a game where the tree fits your current game style. Thus, when you rate a specific tree like for instance Freedom, consider it within a frame where you would normally pick this tree (cultural game) and not in context of a game where you wouldn't pick this tree (conquest), and give your scores based on how much you benefit from the tree in this context. That being said, rating can also be flavored up and down by how universal the tree or policy is - if a tree/policy is extremely situational (could be Piety), you might rate it lower than one that is beneficial in almost any type of game (could be Rationalism). Also of course, how well it suites your playing style or personal likes or dislikes also should influence your vote. It is your decision how you will weigh these different factors, but I've tried to outline some general thoughts here to establish some sort of common base. I'll try to make some statistics when people have put in some votes to see how things distribute.
As an experiment, I'll ask you to rate both the individual policies and give an overall score for the policy tree.

I'd ask you to put your vote before the name of each policy, like this:
3 - Aristocracy: +15% Production when building Wonders and +1 happiness for every 10 Citizens in a City.

Give votes between 0 and 5, where 1 is worst and 5 is best, like this:
5 = Excellent
4 = Very good
3 = Good
2 = Decent
1 = Poor
0 = Bad or Very Bad


The policies for part II are:

Piety:
_ - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%.
_ - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples.
_ - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies.
_ - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age.
_ - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%.
_ - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%.
_ - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture.
_ - Overall tree rating.

Rationalism:
_ - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
_ - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist.
_ - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School.
_ - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities.
_ - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
_ - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
_ - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.
_ - Overall tree rating.


Please place your votes by copying above and putting in votes in place of _
Feel free to comment on your votes.

 

[black213]

Piety:
1 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%. (Meh...)
1 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples. (I only use Piety when going for cultural victory, and this policy doesn't really benefit tall empires much.)
2 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies. (It's decent but not that powerful, however extra culture is always welcome.)
4 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age. (The best part of Piety along with Religious Tolerance IMO.)
1 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%. (No comment.)
4 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%. (Tied with Reformation for being awesome.)
2 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture. (Would be a 3 if the bonus to Holy Sites doubled with Freedom finisher.)
3 - Overall tree rating. (A must have if you are going for cultural victory. Otherwise useless. Also has some serious synergy issues.)

Rationalism:
4 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy. (Extra science is always delicious, despite what victory condition going for.)
4 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist. (See Opener.)
2 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School. (Not that good but not every policy should be powerful in an already very powerful tree.)
4 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities. (See Opener.)
1 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings. (See Humanism.)
4 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
5 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.
4 - Overall tree rating. (A good tree that fits any victory condition, even cultural victory because you will get to key techs earlier although your culture output would be lower due to lack of Piety... I'll have to try Rationalism instead of Piety in a cultural game sometime.)

 

[ense7en]

Piety:
1 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%.
1 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples.
3 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies.
3 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age.
1 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%.
4 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%.
2 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture.
2.14 - Overall tree rating.

This tree got turned into garbage with the release of G & K.
I used to love this tree in vanilla. Was great for cultural victories, great for domination, etc.
Now it's just crap.

Opener reduces the time it takes to build buildings you've likely already built by the time you can open this tree. Horray.
Organized Religion, wow a whole +1 faith for them.
Excess happiness into culture, yes, quite useful in cultural games.
33% more culture in cities with a wonder? Great stuff in tall cultural games.
Temples increasing gold by a piddly 10% needs a buff.
Reduced policy costs? Absolutely imperative in cultural games.
Closer isn't terrible, but i wish it included great person purchase costs. As it is, it's a lackluster closer to a terrible tree that no one ever touches unless they are going cultural.


Rationalism:
4 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
4 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist.
3 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School.
3 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities.
1 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
5 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
5 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.
3.57 - Overall tree rating.

Unlike Piety, this tree got nerfed post-G & K, but in a good way.
It was OP previously; now it's much more balanced.

Solid opener is always helpful and forces you to keep an eye in happiness.
Extra specialist science is extremely useful in either tall or wide games.
More happiness is always nice, and can often come at a great time.
Extra gold is rather mediocre IMHO; comes too late to matter unless you take the right side of the tree early on for same strange reason.
Scientific Revolutions was partially why Rationalism was OP pre-G & K, and now is placed later in the tree, balancing it out.
Great closer means you have to take the crappier right side to get free techs.

Overall, i think this tree is perfect now, as it's balanced with some poor policies and some fantastic ones.
At higher difficulties this tree is extremely helpful.

Sadly, Piety got horribly nerfed and i really wish it was hugely buffed with more of a focus on culture like pre-G & K. Or at least hugely buff the religious policies so they are actually worthwhile as right now i hate having to take this tree even in cultural games.

 

[Seabastian Civ]

Piety:
3 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%. A bonus better suited to a wide ICS empire.
5 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples. The only great bonus in this tree.
1 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies. Lame.
4 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age. Too often there is only 1 or 2 cities fortunate enough to get a wonder. Even so, a solid increase.
1 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%. Terrible
2 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%. Terrible... far too small.
3 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture. Decent bonus, makes holy sites worthwhile.
3 - Overall tree rating.

Rationalism:
5 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy. STUD Belief. Most critical policy in the game, given the time it can be opened.
5 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist. A fantastic policy. Every empire needs specialists.
3 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School. Solid bonus, comes late though.
5 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities. STUD. Maybe the second best policy in the game.
2 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings. Meh.
3 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%. Hit or miss. Tough to get too many RAs late in the game, in my experience.
5 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies. Can be great, if timed right.
5 - Overall tree rating.

Look, Piety has a few nice policies, but even those are better for a wide empire, not a cultural empire. Cultural empires are left wanting a real culturally-powerful policy, instead all they get is a few more culture per turn (honestly how high can you get happiness on higher levels while remaiming competitive? India OCC maybe?) and a lame 10% discount. Worse yet, it competes directly with rationalism, which gives small boosts to gold and happiness, and MASSIVE boosts to science. Not even a close call, imo.

 

[joncnunn]

My play style is to win via science victories and my ratings refect that.

Piety:
1 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%. (Temples are low priority items going for science; and by the time your ready to bump up the cultural rate the cities are bigger)
2 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples.
1 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies. (Going for science there's not going to be much extra happiness)
3 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age. (The most useful Piety one going for Science; in this case for the Golden Age)
2 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%.
1 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%. (Don't really need the reduction in cultural polices going for science)
2 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture.
1.7 - Overall tree rating. (That's the rating towards a science victory; but in practice I rate it as 0 due to the clash with Rationalism)

Rationalism:
4 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
4 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist. (Most cities will have specialists going for science)
5 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School. (This is a major hapiness boost when going for science, beats 1 per city in another tree hands down)
5 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities. (Somewhat map dependent, but I usually have enough Trade Posts to get this up to 4)
4 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings. (Reducing net maintenance of science buildings adds up going for science)
2 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%. (This was a 4 in Vanilla, but the DOF limitation (and needing to ensure your two friends don't hate each other) have cut these down
5+ - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies. (In some cases, this would still be a 5 even if only one tech granted.)
5+ - Overall tree rating. (The tree is must have for the fastest science victories and is really a 6)

Despite the poor piety tree rating I'm okay with the tree itself as is; going for cultural I'd rate Piety much higher. Cultural's main problem compared to science seems to be that science victory is too easy.

There is however a problem with Rationalism for non-science victories; it's on the strong side even there. Only real reason not to take it for cultural victory is that it would turn off Piety as faster science gets access to advanced cultural buildings faster. Getting further in the tech tree helps with mid-game (and later) conquest; getting further in the tech tree allows better ships (finding the last city states) and banks and other money making buildings in prep for late game gobbling up of city states.

 

[Kwami]

Piety:
3 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%.
2 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples.
3 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies.
4 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age.
2 - Theocracy: Temples increase a city's Gold output by 10%.
4 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%.
3 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture.

2 - Overall

The Piety Opener is extremely useful if you want to found a religion on Immortal or Deity and you weren't fortunate enough to get a religious natural wonder, a religious city-state ally, or Stonehenge. I've used this policy with Organized Religion numerous times to found a religion. For that reason, I score it a 3. However, it's a bit weak in every other game. Tall empires are only going to build a handful of Temples and Shrines, so the saved Production isn't very great. Wide empires probably won't invest in the Piety tree unless they really need to found a religion that way since it conflicts with Rationalism.

Organized Religion is useful in the scenario that I describe in the previous paragraph. Otherwise, it's not very useful at all. I could see wide empires benefiting from this policy if they actually invested in Piety, but that's almost always a bad idea. Tall empires won't get more than 6-10 total Faith from Organized Religion. Additional Faith from religious buildings is a good idea, but it ought to scale better for tall empires.

The mechanic behind Mandate of Heaven is interesting, the real effects aren't very significant. This is a policy that benefits tall empires over wide ones, which is good for the Piety tree. However, it isn't powerful enough. Even in a ridiculous game, I've never crossed 100 Happiness for more than a few turns.

Reformation is by far one of the better policies in the game. It encourages players to build wonders in cities other than the capital and thus promotes more strategic gameplay. Planning for and constructing a wonder in each city can be challenging, but that's a good thing! The Golden Age is a neat addition. I rate this policy at 4 because I don't think that it's too powerful. It's just right.

Theocracy, on the other hand, is quite weak. Certainly, a Gold boost is always welcome. However, 10% is too small. Adjusting the number would be sufficient to redeem this otherwise lackluster policy.

I'm split on Religious Tolerance. On the one hand, a 10% reduction in Culture costs for future policies is fantastic. On the other hand, it's a terrible mechanic. Spending Culture to save future Culture isn't fun. It's annoying. However, this policy is powerful enough that I can't rate it lower than a 4, even though I hate it. Also, the name doesn't fit.

The Piety Closer is an interesting idea that doesn't seem to work correctly. The Freedom Closer doubles the tile yields from settled Great Persons, but it doesn't work for the +3 Gold and +3 Culture that the Piety Closer provides. This failed synergy ruins the policy for me. I would like to generate extra Great Prophets pre-Industrial Era to settle for Faith and Culture, but +3 just isn't enough to justify using up a tile and a Citizen to work it. The cost reduction is great, but why doesn't it apply to Great Persons? Overall, the Piety Closer is a great idea that just doesn't seem to be implemented properly and is thus quite disappointing.

Overall, I can't rate Piety higher than 2. Certainly, I always take the full tree in my culture games because of Reformation and Religious Tolerance. Also, it's aesthetically pleasing to do so. However, the tree is full of disappointment. I don't think that it's as bad as many others say.

I know that this isn't a topic for suggestions and ideas, but I really want to love the Piety tree since I'm a peace-loving culture player at heart. So, to summarize:

1. The Piety Opener and Organized Religion are great ideas, but they don't scale well enough for tall empires.
2. Mandate of Heaven and Theocracy could use some number tweaks.
3. The mechanic behind Religious Tolerance is terrible and its name doesn't fit. Sadly, it's very powerful.
4. The Piety Closer is a great idea that seems to be implemented poorly.

Here's hoping for a winter patch?

 

[Kwami]

Rationalism:
4 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
3 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist.
4 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School.
4 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities.
3 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
3 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
5 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.

5 - Overall

A 15% Science boost is fantastic. So, the Rationalism Opener is a great policy. Science benefits every victory strategy, so there's really no reason not to take this policy unless you don't want to lose your Piety bonuses.

Secularism is also quite powerful. Each city with a University, Public School, and Research Lab will have four Scientist slots. This policy adds 8 Science to every such city that uses those slots, which is great for just about any kind of empire. Of course, this bonus also applies to Artists and Engineers for empires looking to gather more Culture or to build more wonders. Still, Secularism is less powerful than some other policies in the tree and I like the mechanic, so I rate it at 3. Why the name, though? It doesn't seem to fit.

The Happiness bonus from Humanism entirely wipes out the Unhappiness penalty for settling a new city. This isn't very important for a tell empire, but it's pretty huge for a wide empire. I can't imagine skipping this policy for anything short of a tall cultural game.

The Science bonus from Free Thought is also very powerful. It's extra fun in a city surrounded by jungle Trading Posts. Anyway, more Science is always good. Another no-brainer policy.

Sovereignty is one of the weaker policies in the Rationalism tree, but it's still pretty good. The maintenance cost for the four primary Science buildings is 9 Gold, so this policy makes up for nearly half of that cost. This isn't huge for a tall empire, but it's absolutely great for a wide empire.

Since Research Agreements aren't as powerful as they used to be, Scientific Revolutions isn't as powerful as it used to be. Still, it's a pretty good bonus. Unless you're a real war-monger, you're certain to have a few friends willing to sign Agreements with you. Stacking this bonus with the Porcelain Tower makes for some very potent Research Agreements. Probably too potent, actually.

Finally, the Rationalism Closer provides two free technologies. Any two. This policy is almost surely the most powerful in the game. I can't imagine why anyone thought that this policy was balanced.

Overall, I'm going to rate the Rationalism tree at 5/5. It's just too good to pass up in nearly any strategy. I often find myself wanting to take Patronage or Commerce policies, but skipping them because I need Rationalism to keep up with the AI. In fact, there's usually a turning point in my games. Before Rationalism, I trail the AI in tech. After Rationalism, I'm usually at the top or close to it.

There shouldn't be a Science tree at all. Science is a means to everything else in the game and a tree that grants gobs of extra Science thus grants more of everything else, too. Want more Gold? Take Rationalism and get to Banks and Stock Exchanges faster. More Culture? Take Rationalism, tech up to Opera Houses and Museums faster. While you're at it, grab a few wonders that the AI can't build, yet. How about military power? Just tech up to Infantry faster! Let's not forget that more Science let's you tech up to Public Schools and Research Labs faster, too, thus compounding the problem.

Rationalism is just the obvious choice in nearly every game. That's not good design and it's not interesting strategy. I'd love to see the entire tree deleted and replaced. Maybe we can finally split Faith and Culture into separate trees. Empires going for non-cultural victories could actually focus on policies in Commerce, Order, or Autocracy. Would that be great? I think so.

Down with Rationalism and its overpowered boringness!

 

[Gucumatz]

Rationalism:
4 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
3 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist.
4 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School.
4 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities.
3 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
3 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
5 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.

5 - Overall

A 15% Science boost is fantastic. So, the Rationalism Opener is a great policy. Science benefits every victory strategy, so there's really no reason not to take this policy unless you don't want to lose your Piety bonuses.

Secularism is also quite powerful. Each city with a University, Public School, and Research Lab will have four Scientist slots. This policy adds 8 Science to every such city that uses those slots, which is great for just about any kind of empire. Of course, this bonus also applies to Artists and Engineers for empires looking to gather more Culture or to build more wonders. Still, Secularism is less powerful than some other policies in the tree and I like the mechanic, so I rate it at 3. Why the name, though? It doesn't seem to fit.

The Happiness bonus from Humanism entirely wipes out the Unhappiness penalty for settling a new city. This isn't very important for a tell empire, but it's pretty huge for a wide empire. I can't imagine skipping this policy for anything short of a tall cultural game.

The Science bonus from Free Thought is also very powerful. It's extra fun in a city surrounded by jungle Trading Posts. Anyway, more Science is always good. Another no-brainer policy.

Sovereignty is one of the weaker policies in the Rationalism tree, but it's still pretty good. The maintenance cost for the four primary Science buildings is 9 Gold, so this policy makes up for nearly half of that cost. This isn't huge for a tall empire, but it's absolutely great for a wide empire.

Since Research Agreements aren't as powerful as they used to be, Scientific Revolutions isn't as powerful as it used to be. Still, it's a pretty good bonus. Unless you're a real war-monger, you're certain to have a few friends willing to sign Agreements with you. Stacking this bonus with the Porcelain Tower makes for some very potent Research Agreements. Probably too potent, actually.

Finally, the Rationalism Closer provides two free technologies. Any two. This policy is almost surely the most powerful in the game. I can't imagine why anyone thought that this policy was balanced.

Overall, I'm going to rate the Rationalism tree at 5/5. It's just too good to pass up in nearly any strategy. I often find myself wanting to take Patronage or Commerce policies, but skipping them because I need Rationalism to keep up with the AI. In fact, there's usually a turning point in my games. Before Rationalism, I trail the AI in tech. After Rationalism, I'm usually at the top or close to it.

There shouldn't be a Science tree at all. Science is a means to everything else in the game and a tree that grants gobs of extra Science thus grants more of everything else, too. Want more Gold? Take Rationalism and get to Banks and Stock Exchanges faster. More Culture? Take Rationalism, tech up to Opera Houses and Museums faster. While you're at it, grab a few wonders that the AI can't build, yet. How about military power? Just tech up to Infantry faster! Let's not forget that more Science let's you tech up to Public Schools and Research Labs faster, too, thus compounding the problem.

Rationalism is just the obvious choice in nearly every game. That's not good design and it's not interesting strategy. I'd love to see the entire tree deleted and replaced. Maybe we can finally split Faith and Culture into separate trees. Empires going for non-cultural victories could actually focus on policies in Commerce, Order, or Autocracy. Would that be great? I think so.

Down with Rationalism and its overpowered boringness!

I have to say what you suggest is quite extreme - but actually sounds like a great idea. I choose rationalism every game, it is so powerful as it stands. Removing it and having 2 different trees (culture and a faith tree) would be much more welcome I think. Science is too powerful as is which makes Rationalism a no brainer 99/100 times

 

[Tabarnak]

Piety:
3 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%.
3 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples.
2 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies.
4 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age.
2 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%.
2 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%.
2 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture.
2.5 - Overall tree rating.

Rationalism:
5 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
4 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist.
3 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School.
4 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities.
2 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
3 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
5 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.
4 - Overall tree rating.

The major problem with Piety is that tree is useful only for cultural games. But, for some games, there is situations where you build Oracle and have an excellent cpt rate without going for a culture win(i'm looking at you, multiplayer games). Then this tree can bring something interesting. If you have the time to reach Reformation before industrial era for a domination game, Piety can boost your faith and culture enough to make it worth. Mandate of Heaven, Theocracy and Religious Tolerance can be skipped easily if you don't go full cultural.

Rationalism is the best tree to get beakers. If you don't relay on RAs and have a pretty big empire, only the first 3 policies from the left side of the tree are enough, before switching for Order. I gives to the Opener a 5 because when the 2nd and 3rd policy from the left are taken, this 15% bonus is really acting on your total beaker...as long as you can stay happy. The closer is very strong and appears at a right time of the game when the last steps are close to be done.

 

[Wargizmo]

Piety:
1 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%.
2 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples.
2 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies.
3 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age.
1 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%.
3 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%.
1 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture.
2 - Overall tree rating.

Rationalism:
4 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
5 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist.
3 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School.
5 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities.
1 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
4 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
4 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.
4.5 - Overall tree rating.

Comments:

Piety:

Don't like the concept of combining faith & culture into one tree, it needlessly restricts gameplay. What if I want to play a cultural game without getting a religion? Also for culture you're going to be going tall, which means the opener and organised religion aren't really helping much; if you're going wide then you'll likely get them too late to make an impact anyway as you'll typically take much longer to get through your first tree.

As well as that I actually hate the idea of policies which do nothing but give you more culture; I'm spending culture and getting culture but there are no tangible benefits to my empire at all, so in the end the only reason you'd want to fill this tree is in a culture game where you're getting culture simply for culture's sake; I find this pretty boring. I think a culture tree should be like freedom, which is amazing for getting culture but also has a lot of other great uses and fun benefits to your empire (such as the uber specialists!).

I guess piety can be used for just taking the opener and organised religion to help your religion along, but it would be so much better if only it didn't lock out rationalism. Then I could see a good argument to take the opener and organised religion while waiting for rationalism to unlock. At the moment though the tree is pretty crappy.

Rationalism:

A great tree, I get at least the opener and the first two policies on the left hand side in just about every single game I play that isn't culture victory. I gave the tree a 4.5 overall because all the policies synergize so well with each other, with a nice combination of +beakers and %science increase. Secularism in particular is stronger than one of the strongest leader traits (Korea) and then multiply that out with the opener and free thought, which also has the trading post bonus on top of the 17% bonus. Sovereignty is the only really weak policy in the whole tree but worth taking just for the closer.

 

[dutchengineer]

The Piety Closer is an interesting idea that doesn't seem to work correctly. The Freedom Closer doubles the tile yields from settled Great Persons, but it doesn't work for the +3 Gold and +3 Culture that the Piety Closer provides. This failed synergy ruins the policy for me.

This is (regretably) indeed how the freedom closer works. However, the freedom closer does work correctly in the sense that it works as advertised in the game. Namely, the freedom closer says that it doubles 'the base yields of great person improvements'. This means that the base yield of 6 faith of a holy site is doubled, but bonusses like the +3 Gold and +3 Culture are not. The same is true for all other great person improvements. For example, the Freedom closer only doubles the base 6 science of an academy, but not the +2 science bonusses that you get from the scientific theory and atomic theory technologies.

 

[dutchengineer]

Piety:
2 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%. Decent for wide empires, but I don't take piety if I have a wide empire.
2 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples. see opener
2 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies. Nice idea, but bonus is too small. 100% seems more reasonable.
5 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age. This policy is one of the two reasons that piety is worthwhile for cultural victories
1 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%. Bonus is too small. Should be at least 25% or so to be worthwhile.
5 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%. This is the other reason that I take piety for cultural victories.
2 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture. Mediocre, but better than nothing. Makes Holy Sites useful.
2 - Overall tree rating. (4 for cultural victories, 1 otherwise)

Piety is slightly better than rationalism for cultural victories, because it contains two policies which are very useful for such a victory. For any other case, I think it's junk.

Rationalism:
4 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy. Would be a 5 without the happy requirement
4 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist. Nice and often significant bonus.
4 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School. Gives a significant happiness bonus, but there are a few policies that give a better boost. Good.
5 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities. With my trading post spam in puppets, this often means +50% to +100% science output of a puppet. All other cities (which should have universities by the time you get to this policy) get +17% science (with respect to its base science output). Great policy.
1 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings. Insignificant. I only take it to get the closer.
4 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%. Was better in the past, before they added the requirement of a declaration of friendship, which significantly reduces the number of research agreements. Is still good though.
5 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies. Great if timed correctly.
5 - Overall tree rating.

Rationalism is simply a no-brainer in every game, and I would even take it in cultural games if both piety and rationalism were allowed. I take it in every non-cultural game.

 

[Rooftrellen]

Piety:
2 - Opener: Add one or two religious buildings and this would be nice
2 - Organized Religion: Just a little too late to normally make a difference
5 - Mandate of Heaven: This is just huge for culture games.
5 - Reformation: But this is even bigger!
3 - Theocracy: It's a nice boost, and temples can get pretty crazy anyway with religious beliefs.
5 - Religious Tolerance: Again, for culture games, this is huge.
4 - Closer: Getting culture from a tile without having to plant a GA is great.
1 - Overall tree rating.

Piety is full of nice things, actually, but they work together so poorly. It needs a split, and it needs it badly. I suggested a split some time ago, so that you could have a faith and culture tree.

However, it does culture pretty well, but the faith boosts aren't generally enough to be all that interesting. Culture from happiness, a multiplier for wonders, a reduction in SP costs, and a great tile improvement for culture are pretty amazing if going for culture, however, so they get high marks.

The low mark for the tree is because it's too split, the parts don't work together, and it's very situational.

Rationalism:
2 - Opener: It's a big boost, but only if you're happy, and being slightly unhappy is the norm, so...
3 - Secularism: This can really add up over several cities.
1 - Humanism: One building is hard to get in most cities. It's not a big boost compared to other some other happiness policies.
5 - Free Thought: Massive, simply massive. This can be the turning point in a game.
0 - Sovereignty: A small amount of gold, and if I'm going for science, I don't normally even need it.
5 - Scientific Revolutions: Considering you're probably signing RA's every chance you get...
3 - Closer: It needs to be timed well to be really good, and the later the better. A small boost over time would be better if you get this quickly.
3 - Overall tree rating.

This is the opposite of Piety in many ways. Most of the individual boosts of beliefs aren't so amazing in rationalism, but the tree as a whole works well together, and it's also much more universal.

The closer gets burned mostly due to the fact there are other things do do with culture in many cases, rather than getting some pretty bad individual policies. The good thing about it is that you can invest just a little and leave it for later in most cases.

Outside of a science game, I'll normally open Rationalism, but the tree, as a whole, is rarely worth finishing. However, needing fairly little investment to get the bonuses of free thought and secularism, two nice boosts to any VC, push up the overall tree rating, in spite of several bad individual ratings.


In comparing the two, I think Piety is generally overlooked, even if it really is restricted to culture games, while Rationalism is considered great without much reason. I'll take either one when going for the proper VC, but I'm unlikely to finish either otherwise, and even when going for the proper VC, piety will end up finished straight away, while rationalism will take a back seat quickly, even when going to space.

The good stuff in rationalism is just earlier in the tree and more universal.

 

[kaspergm]

Trying for my own votes:

Piety:
1 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%.
2 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples.
3 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies.
5 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age.
3 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%.
5 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%.
2 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture.
2 - Overall tree rating.

Some comments: The problems with this tree has already been well described, but I'd like to add my voice to those who say that a) left half of tree (religion) and right half (culture) are completely decoupled and play against each other rather than with each other, b) opener would be nice but comes too late as tree only opens in clasical which means you take it once you've finished Tradition if you're going tall, and by this point you'll long since have build Shrines and Temples - and as Piety is now, you'll never pick this tree if going wide, c) Right half is essential for cultural victory and only then. I do think Theocracy is better than it's reputation, a flat +10 % Gold is pretty good and probably better than most of the other policies in game that provide Gold. I give the overall tree a low rating not because it is so situational, but also because even when you do play that situation - i.e. cultural game - half of the tree STILL is bad, making it a very poorly crafted tree.

Rationalism:
5 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
4 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist.
4 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School.
4 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities.
1 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
4 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
5 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.
5 - Overall tree rating.

Great tree. The opener is possibly the strongest stand-alone policy in the game, making it for a ridiculous one-stop choice on the way to another tree, even if you don't intend to develop the tree fully. Sovereignty is sort of logical but sucks whether you are going wide or tall, the others are great - Secularism caters more to tall empires whereas Free Thought caters more to wide, but all in all, there's more than enough for everybody in this tree.

 

[thegingerninja]

Personally i think anyone who chooses piety over rationalism except in a cultural game is either a newbie or and idiot. Science rules all

 

[Tachii]

Personally i think anyone who chooses piety over rationalism except in a cultural game is either a newbie or and idiot. Science rules all

Could be useful for Songhai in a dominant game tho.

 

[crawf0rd]

Maybe you should make clear whether the overall tree rating is the average of the policies or another judgement all together.

 

[kaspergm]

Maybe you should make clear whether the overall tree rating is the average of the policies or another judgement all together.

This was intended to allow people to give an overall rating that was not just the average of their other votes. Putting in the average is ok as well, though.

 

[ense7en]

I'm doing a game right now were i plan to avoid BOTH these trees for a change. Tired of Rationalism always, or Piety always for culture.

 

[peterka]

Piety:
3 - Opener: Reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%.
3 - Organized Religion: +1 Faith from Shrines and Temples.
4 - Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies.
5 - Reformation: Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder and the empire immediately enters a Golden Age.
2 - Theocracy: Temples increase a cities Gold output by 10%.
4 - Religious Tolerance: Reduces the Culture cost of future Policies by 10%.
3 - Closer: Provides a 20% discount on purchases of all religious units and buildings with Faith and Holy Sites provide +3 Gold and +3 Culture.
3.5 - Overall tree rating.


Rationalism:
5 - Opener: Grants +15% Science while the empire is Happy.
4 - Secularism: +2 Science from every Specialist.
3 - Humanism: +1 Local City Happiness from every University, Observatory and Public School.
4 - Free Thought: +1 Science from every Trading Post and +17% Science from Universities.
2 - Sovereignty: +1 Gold from Science buildings.
3 - Scientific Revolutions: Boosts Science gained from Research Agreements by +50%.
4 - Closer: Grants 2 free Technologies.
4 - Overall tree rating.


To buff piety, I should suggest -75% time for the opener, +2 faith for temples and +20% for theocracy... to raise to the same level as rationalism.

We should have this at ancients times, so the piety opener bonus not waisted because a few shrines/temples have been built before while liberty/tradition/honor was completed...