Rathaus vs. Organized?

[vormuir]

After playing Charlemagne, I have the strong impression that the Rathaus saves so much money that it's almost like being Organized.

Has anyone checked this? Say you have a typical early medieval empire -- 8 or 10 cities on one continent -- running the most common civics (Hereditary Rule, Organized Religion, Slavery). Rathaus in every city vs. Courthouse in every city plus Organized -- who comes out ahead?

-- Obviously this is a snapshot comparison since the savings for both the UB and the trait are highly situational -- Organized is better when you're running expensive civics, the Rathaus shines in a big empire with high maintenance costs, etc. But I'm curious, and I suspect the Rathaus is better through much of the midgame.

Anyone?


Waldo

 

[Indiansmoke]

rathaus does not save money from civic upkeep. All it does is save 25% more than normal courthouse in city maintnance. 25% is not that much early on but it is good nevertheless...maybe 1 gold average per city saved or even less.

It is especially good however, late in the game with corporations and big cities, when maintenance can be very high.

The usual question for non organized leaders is is it worth building courthouse in the first place before market or Uni or observarory or bank or grocer?

Usually not in capital and in cities 3-4 tiles from capital...maybe for far cities...so you get a good UB that personnaly I put a bit back in my que of priorities. I much prefer the Zulu UB that almost every city will get (and it is discounted with zulu).

 

[troytheface]

"Usually not in capital and in cities 3-4 tiles from capital"


don't agree. capitol and courthouse= espionage bonus
usually a quick build. neglecting 1/3 of the game in my mind is not optimal

capitol with a courthouse, this is the superior.

 

[Shurdus]

"Usually not in capital and in cities 3-4 tiles from capital"


don't agree. capitol and courthouse= espionage bonus
usually a quick build. neglecting 1/3 of the game in my mind is not optimal

capitol with a courthouse, this is the superior.

You would think this way of putting it would be old by now...

Having a Rathaus requires a hammer investment and gets you back about 1 gpt per city or so, depending on the actual maintenance cost. Afaik organised saves you more.

I think it may be a close call on occasions. I am not a good number cruncher but I eagerly await the outcome.

 

[nanomage]

what's the bonus from building courthouse in capital? it's just the same +2EP as if you build it in any other city, but in that "other city" it saves you more gpt.
Unless you have SY in cap, of course. But that usually means you are farming GSpies and heading towards EE, and than yes, courthouses are of high priority. But it's a very special case.

 

[Iranon]

According to the formulae in the war academy, Organised should save around

0.26p+1.15c-1.45 for the civics you specified, where p is your total population and c your number of cities. In practice, it's likely to be a few gold less (between 0 and 5) because rounding doesn't quite work as expected.

The Rathaus halves city maintenance again compared to regular courthouses (no idea how rounding works here).

Comparing these for any given game state shouldn't be too difficult; I'd like to point out that the Rathaus is likely to gain a lot of ground in the late game (when a lot of attractive civics are actually quite cheap again and corporations might increase city maintenance to a ridiculous degree).

 

[vormuir]

rathaus does not save money from civic upkeep. All it does is save 25% more than normal courthouse in city maintnance. 25% is not that much early on but it is good nevertheless...maybe 1 gold average per city saved or even less.

In the example given above -- an early medieval empire with 8-10 cities -- most cities will have base (pre-Courthouse) maintenance well above 4 gpt. So the Rathaus will be saving you more than 1 gpt/city.

An early modern empire with (say) 15-20 cities, including several sized 15+, will have base maintenance costs well above 10 gpt for most of its cities. Around this point the Rathaus becomes really huge, with total savings of 50 or 100 gpt or more.


Waldo

 

[Gliese 581]

I understand you're only looking at the maintenance issue but don't forget the hammer savings of Org. It's so much easier to whip the courthouses for Org leaders than it is for Charlemagne.

 

[DaveMurray]

I understand you're only looking at the maintenance issue but don't forget the hammer savings of Org. It's so much easier to whip the courthouses for Org leaders than it is for Charlemagne.

Pretty much why organized is the best warmongering trait.

It's one thing to take land. It's another thing to take land and be in a position to take more land more quickly.

As far as Organized vs. Rathaus, it will def depend on many different factors. A couple of the big ones are what civics you're running and what your corporation payments look like. Obviously organized will save you more if you're running high cost civics with state property because your city maintenance will be very small compared to what your cost will be from civics, and obviously the Rathaus will save you more if you're running a corporations that are consuming a bunch of resources so the answer to the question is the same answer to many questions that are asked about this game: It depends.

 

[cabert]

I understand you're only looking at the maintenance issue but don't forget the hammer savings of Org. It's so much easier to whip the courthouses for Org leaders than it is for Charlemagne.

true
but I'm looking at the late game (when I'm playing in a game that lends itself to a late game) and can see the difference in a double corporated city (sushi + mining for instance) between a rathaused city and a courthoused city.

There is no contest in the early game, org is superior because of the low cost of courthouses.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Why choose, when you can play unrestricted leaders. Imagine Darius of the HRE.

I think that one of the things that might get overlooked is the amount of help the Rathaus would provide for conquest when considering how high maintenance goes up as your empire grows and generally your new cities will be the ones furthest from your capital. New cities can often cost 10-15 gold in maintenance. I've never played as the HRE, so I haven't had the chance to see a difference. Based on looking at Iranon's formula, my guess is that the Rathaus would outweight the benefits of ORG for a large empire.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I'd say ORG is better overall for it's flexibility to be useful in smaller (landwise) empires with high populations running high cost civics and of course the cheap courthouses.

However, I also must say that maintenance costs in early-medieval era even on Prince can be >10GPT in your farthest cities, so you'll be saving at least 2.5 gpt EXTRA with Rauthaus in those cities.

 

[UncleJJ]

The Rathaus is superior on maps where colonial costs are a major factor. A map with several large islands (enough for 7 cities) can have horrendous colonial costs.

The main advantage of Organised is the 60 hammers saved per city on courthouse costs making it a mere 2 pop whip.