RBP10 - Spanish Explorers - Team C Interest Thread

[Quokka]

Got it.

Well we do need to expand but where? What about the old 'start a war and then get allies to weaken the enemy tactic'? Can we afford MA with China and Scandinavia? We could get them to fight for a while and then land in Rome somewhere. If WW gets too bad we can revolt to Monarchy.

I'll have a look at the save and see what else I can think of.

We are going to need Chivalry, or Feudalism at the very least, to pull of any invasion so lets head towards that.

 

[Quokka]

Inherited Turn
Looking at F4 we have the following deals about to expire:
Peace + 21gpt with the Romans expiring in 6 (+21)
Spices for 6gpt with the Romans expiring in 9 (-6)
Spices + 3gpt for Incense with the Chinese expiring in 9 (+3)
34gpt with the Chinese expiring in 9 (+34)
So we should be picking up 52gpt by the end of my run. I am thinking I will just renew the Spices for Incense deal after we had to up the ante last time we renegotiated.

Change Madrid from Library to Galley. Suicide galleys awayyyy!

380 Madrid Galley=>Galley

I China starts Copernicus

390 …..

I Rome starts Magellan’s. I will continue running suicide galleys but I should be the last player to do it. Our window of opportunity is slamming shut fast.

400 Madrid Galley=>Galley
Seville Harbor=>Granary
Gibraltar Harbor=>Aqueduct

Rome, Vikings and England have Printing Press.

410 We lose a suicide galley 1 turn west of Seville.

I Vikings start Copernicus

420 Madrid Galley=>Galley
Valencia Harbor=>Temple

I England calls and demands our TM + 29g. Brighton is safe so she’d have to come to the mainland to lose her troops and our people could use the happiness boost if she declares. I tell her to bugger off and she does!

430 Harbor=>Colosseum. Can be changed but I am kind of stuck as to what to build. At least Colosseums help our never ending Happiness problems.
Vitoria Marketplace=>Aqueduct

Another galley goes down 1 turn west of Santiago
A galley goes down 2 turns west of Brighton
I get sick of the carnage and change Madrid to a Colosseum, same scenario as above.

I Ceasar appears and we renew our peace deal
The Iroquois build the Sistine Chapel in Salamanca
The English get Copernicus in Warwick from the cascade

440
Rome’s deal expiring have left us with and income of 50gpt and 291 in the bank, lets go shopping…
Just one thing to do first, move our galleys.


CONTACT
Suicide Galley #129 makes contact with Persia. Suicide Galley #130 breathes a sigh of relief.
They know the Zulu and Iroquois, and know Monarchy, Feudalism and Engineering. We can afford Printing Press and Education.
I am not going to do anything this turn. I am 1 turn away from meeting the Iroquois, but they want ~22gpt for contact. I’ll trade next turn.

450 Some good news, some bad news.

Bad news first. By 1 tile away, I should have said SEA tile. Suicide Galley #129, plummets to the depths like MC Hammer’s career. Persia also knows Education….

Now some good news. The Iroquois border expanded and we got contact, they must have thought the frantic waving of the crew a welcoming gesture.

Trade England: WM + 14gpt + 259g for Printing Press
This is 2gpt + 20g cheaper than last turn.
Trade Iroquois: Printing Press for Feudalism + WM + 10gpt + 41g + Contact with Zulu.
Trade Persia: Printing Press + 6gpt + 4g for Engineering
Trade Zulu: Printing Press + 12g for Chivalry

In total we get Printing Press, Chivalry, Feudalism, Engineering and a WM for 10gpt + 234g.

I leave it there for now. We can trade a lot more, for example
England: All contacts + WM + 20gpt + 98g for Invention + Education
But next turn we have deals expire that get us an extra 31gpt to play with. We only have one shot with the Contact selling, so I hope they don’t make contact this turn.

Change Colosseums to Libraries.

460 Pamplona Marketplace=>Aqueduct

Nobody has made contact. I have 93gpt + 144g and contacts to play with. It seems I can’t count and its next turn that the Spice deals expire.

470 All of our Lux deals were killed by the AI so Madrid goes into disorder. I flip ahead to stop any other cities from going into disorder

Toledo Aqueduct=>Granary.
I go through and return all the Taxmen to workers to get out income back up.

I notice that neither Persia nor Iroquois has any native Horses, but the Zulu’s have 2. It’s Persia that has to buy, but until we get Navigation and a Harbor in Brighton we can’t sell. Both the Vikings and Rome have spares.
Ahhh, the power of Contacts, its not what you know its who you know.
Trade Iroquois: All contacts + 2g for Invention + Education. They go from Cautious to Annoyed????
That’s all they have except Monarchy, same for the Persians and Zulus, everyone has Monarchy except us.
In our neck of the woods:
Rome, Banking, Astronomy, Gunpowder, Furs and needs Spices
China, Astronomy, Gunpowder, Dyes, Incense and needs Spices
England, Astronomy, Gunpowder, Banking
Vikings, Astronomy, Gunpowder
We can afford Banking,hehehe.

Trade England: Zulu, Persia + WM + 35gpt + 224g for Banking
Set Scientist to Democracy

Trade China: Zulu, Persia + Banking + WM + Spices + 1g for Astronomy + Dyes + Incense
Trade Vikings: Zulu, Persia + Banking + WM for Gunpowder
Trade Rome: Zulu, Persia + Spices + WM for Furs + 6gpt + 1g

Rome still doesn’t have the Ivory by Lutetia hooked up!?!?!
Rome, China, England and the Vikings all have Navigation and Chemistry but all our 51gpt gets us is doubtful. Navigation gets us our UU, its expensive now but will be dirt cheap once Magellan’s is finished.
Change Libraries to Banks.


Notes
We have Saltpeter but it isn’t connected yet. There is a Worker already on the tile roading it, but if you decide we would be better with Pikemen tell him to stop.
Pay careful attention to the build times. By switching to coastal tiles near completion I was able to boost income by as much as 15gpt. Madrid and Barcelona can swing as much as 7gpt each.
After Aqueducts finish we have to make sure that a Granary will finish before growing or it’ll take forever to get to 8 and beyond. We also desperately need courthouses in all our cities, as shield poor as we are we can’t afford to waste any. The increased Commerce will also help.
If we irrigate all the regular Grassland up by Toledo we will be able to use both hills and the Iron Mountain.
Look into mining some of the Plains near Madrid so that it can pull 20spt. Its nearly there now and its already 12 so excess food is wasted. Let Seville fish if it has to.
Santiago and Zaragoza are set so that the Aqueduct and Market both finish faster, but may need reworking depending on what is built next in both cities. Zaragoza still needs a Temple.
If Seville uses the Forest for 2 turns and then lets Madrid use it, the Granary will build in 4. If it fishes it will build in 5. After that let it fish. It makes a nice 5spt for even build times.
I also shuffled Valencia and Gibraltar so Gibraltar could get to 5spt.
We have ~50gpt to spend lets rush some improvements.

Add the Zulu’s to the list of Criminal land wasters. I’m disgusted with them. Any of the starting AI positions would have been better. Surprisingly F11 lists us as 7th in size.

We could try and snag Smiths. The Palace is 600 shields, the same as Smiths. Barcelona has 23 turns to go. We could manage that to slow it if necessary. If we go this way we should set the Scientist to Economics


SAVE

and the Minimap of the World. It's too big to fit on one screenshot.

 

[jumbo2002]

CONTACT

[dance] [dance]

Excellent work, Quokka.

 

[falsfire]

right on, way to go. I just knew this thing would open up at any time.

I believe Despot is up next. Despot, you around? Can you post a "got-it" by tomorrow mid-day? If nothing is heard by dinnertime my time tomorrow, then I'll take it.

 

[Despot]

Quokka, great job with the suicide galleys and trades!! We are definitely back in this.

This is a 'got it', but I won't probably have my turns done until Saturday. So please feel free to have some discussion as to what our next steps should be now that we find ourselves back in business.

 

[Quokka]

I am thinking the Zulu's should be in our expansion plans. They are behind us in tech, and behind their neighbors in tech also. When we get closer to Navigation we should instigate a war over there, it'll slow their tech rates and waste resources, and then land and take at least one city. After that we can pour troops into that city and slowly take the Zulu lands. I think they will be easier than any of the Civs closer to us. We should also be ready to jump on any dogpile that starts against them.
It shouldn't be too hard to get the whole continent into a war. They have obviously been at each others throats before we got there.

Any comments on Smiths?

 

[Despot]

(0) 470 AD-
Nothing much doing. Things look much better now that we aren't so behind in tech. I will run the 40-turn gambit on Economics and slow down Barcelona to build Smith's once we have the tech. Hopefully no one discovers it first and builds it before us. It would be nice to have the extra gpt.

(1) 480 AD-
Santiago Aqueduct->Harbor

(2) 490 AD-
Nothing much doing...checked tech no new changes. Some MMing. Waiting on some deals to pass so we can wheel and deal.


(3) 500 AD-
Saltpeter is hooked up.

Valencia Temple->Market
Zaragoza Market->Courthouse

(4) 510 AD-
Seville Granary->Bank
Syracuse Pikeman->Aqueduct

Well our eastern neighbors all have Monarchy, Chemistry, and Navigation up on us. Rome is also showing Democracy up on us. They also had a galleon sail past us which would mean they have Physics and Magentism. They are definitely the giant of this game. Whenever we get the chance we might want to form a dogpile on them if it is at all possible. The Chinese, Vikes, and English are all polite with us and will trade us Navigation, but it will cost us pretty much all we have at the moment.

(5) 520 AD-
Madrid Bank->Musket

(6) 530 AD-
Nothing...

(7) 540 AD-
Nothing...

(8) 550 AD-
Toledo Granary->Harbor

Trade WM, 36 gpt, and 359 GP to Iro's for Navigation.
Trade WM, 59 gpt, and Spices to Vikes for Chemistry.

IBT -
Renew deal with England for Ivory, but need to kick in 59 GP.

(9) 560 AD-
Pamplona Aqueduct->Bank

(10) 570 AD-
Nothing at all.

Rome is in the industrial age. England is not far behind. They are showing Physics, Demo, and Monarchy over us in the diplo screen and so are the Iro's. China and the Vikes are only showing Demo and Monarchy over us. If we are able to get Economics before anyone else we can maybe get some 2-fers out of it. We are still 30 turns away though so it might be wishful thinking. I didn't really do much during my turns...if we wish to attack anyone then we are going to need to do some upgrades. Our horses and swords aren't going to do the trick even against the Zulu's.

Let us start formulating some plans of attack.
1) Attack the weak Zulu's and hopefully get a foothold on their continent.
2) Attempt to form a dogpile on the Romans. To slow down their research so that we can catch up hopefully.

It seems the upload server is down so I can't upload the save at the moment. I am going to be out for the rest of the day so I won't be able to upload until tonight around 9 hours from now.

 

[Despot]

Ok good now I can upload.

The Save

 

[Despot]

I think we have a few options in this game.

1) Keep strenghting our economy and infra, making deals with the AI, riding their coattails in tech, and trying to stay out of trouble. Then once we hit Modern age go on an all out blitz, of course, recruiting other civs to help our conquest until they are no longer useful.
2) Do something aggressive now like attacking the Zulu's or forming a dogpile on the Romans (if possible).

Do any of you see anything else that we might be able to do? I think we have done a great job simply staying in this game given the horrible shape we were in before. Rome is the big time leader in this game...in culture, science. That is why if we did something aggressive I would want it to be against them. Even if it were a proxy war where we got at least 2 hopefully 3 civs to dogpile on them (China, Vikes, and English would be preferred). Maybe we would be able to take a couple of their cities if the other civs keep them busy enough. It all depends on how much those civs would want to MA against them or if they would be willing to.

What do the rest of you think? Am I plain crazy or do you see some other strategies we could possibly pursue? I think we need some sort of goals we should be striving towards. If the plan is war then we need to start greasing the wheels of our war machine because quite frankly right now it is weak and obsolete.

 

[Quokka]

Trade WM, 36 gpt, and 359 GP to Iro's for Navigation.

Just wondering why you did this? Its effectively 54gpt for an optional tech that we don't really need right now. It's price would have dropped to nearly nothing after Magellan's is built. Can it be traded anywhere?

We definitely need to upgrade our military, even just to prevent an attack from Rome let alone an invasion somwhere.

As for expansion we need to expand sooner rather than later. A major question, what are our chances of coal? If we don't have coal, we are sunk. Even with a dogpile against Rome I don't see how we are going to take any of their cities and keep them. Roman Culture will just flip them back.
I think the Zulu's are a more attractive option. They are about the same as us on the Power graph and their culture is only slightly more than ours. They don't have any Saltpeter hooked up so we would be fighting Pikes, the Romans already have Muskets at least and probably Cavalry. We should ally with Persia and Iroquois and take them out. I think this is possible, where I don't think we would have much success against the Romans.

Another option would be the phoney war. Upgrade our military first and then declare against Rome and Ally with the others. We should wait until some of the other have gotten into the Industrial Age so they will have Cav.

 

[Despot]

It might have very well been a play. My main reasoning was because at that time I thought we wanted to go to war with the Zulu's over an ocean away. However, it was not optimal to do it at that time. We could have definitely have waited to acquire Nav once we were either ready for war or Magellan's was built, but now was not the time.

I do see your points about attacking the Zulu's because they are weak, etc... However, I think that is also a reason why we should let them be. They aren't really a threat.

As far as the Romans go I would never attempt to attack the Romans alone and would only go after their cities if the civs we allied in were doing a good amount of damage. I would raze and replace.

The way I see it is that it would take quite some time to implement either an attack on the Zulu's or the Roman's. First, we need to upgrade our military. The only way I would go against Rome is if we could buy in a few civs into the war. Otherwise, I would opt for the Zulu's since we can definetly take them out. I might be a bit optimistic about going after Rome, but I always like taking out the big fish and bringing them down to our level or lower than going after the little fish.

 

[Quokka]

Alright lets hear from the others. It's been 4 days since anyone other than you or I have posted. I'll PM falsfire.

 

[falsfire]

sorry, guys. been busy with RL lately. I have a pow-wow session with the team to work on a project that's been slipping tonight (i know, working 15 hours straight is gonna be REAL fun)

I'll try to get to it tomorrow, or if jumbo wants to switch places with me for this round that's fine too. I can play (most likely) Wednesday or Friday this week. Also trying to finish Epic 28 before report day next Monday. (I just started it on the weekend!)

 

[jumbo2002]

Falsfire,

Since you're fine taking it tomorrow (Wednesday) go ahead and take it tomorrow. I'll pick it up Thursday or Friday (whenever you have finished).

BTW, I'm keen on the Zulu plan. We need to get an advantage somewhere...and we I don't think we're ready for taking on Rome, and we don't want to attack the other Civs on that continent; they'll be needed to assist in a dogpile against the Romans.

 

[falsfire]

really sorry guys, i won't be able to get to this today. it's just a crazy week. with my class ending soon and a project due next week, i'm not too hopeful about my free time on the weekend either.

but this is definately a skip for this round...

 

[jumbo2002]

Ok, then I'll pick it up tonight.

 

[jumbo2002]

(1) 570AD - Nothing has been done, so is this is my full first turn? If not, the next leader may need to go 11 turns to make the dates come out right.

Status check: Economics in 30 turns at single scientist (Barcelona), +17gpt, 87g in the bank.

Military: Weak to all, Scandinavia and china are in Anarchy - presumably in a move to Demo.

Diplo:
Vikes: Spices+59gpt(18)
England: Spices+3gpt->Ivory (18), 35gpt (10), 14gpt (8)
Zulu: Peace
Iro: 36gpt (18), 10gpt (8)
Persia: 6gpt (8)
china: Spices->Incense+Dyes (10)
Rome: Peace (6), Spices->Furs+6gpt (10)

Zulus are lagging in tech and have no saltpeter. I concur that they should be our primary target.

We likely won't be able to do any trading at least until turn 8, when we reclaim some gpt. Of course, hitting on this 30 turn run on Economics before the AIs would be huge. As it is, plans are to prepare for an invasion of Zululand. I'll try to balance infra and military builds. I will build a few Conquistadors for potential GA triggering and pillaging...but, considering we're going to need to be upgrading to Cavs, we're really better off with Knights.

(1) 580AD - Santiago Harbor->Courthouse (will be able to get 10spt without corruption.) The tech leaders have Music Theory.

(2) 590AD - Madrid Conq->Conq, Vitoria Aqueduct->Rax. Rome and England begin Bach's. MM Pamplona for growth. (We've built an Aqueduct, we might as well use it.)

(I) A Roman frigate is visible beyond our northern border.

(3) 600AD - ...

(I) Pompeii finishes Magellan's.

(4) 610AD - ...

(5) 620AD - Gibraltar Aqueduct->Rax, Zaragoza Courthouse->Knight (can be vetoed for other infra, such as an Aqueduct.)

(6) 630AD - Murcia Aqueduct->Rax

(7) 640AD - Madrid Conq->Knight, Toldeo Harbor->Knight, Vitoria Rax->Knight. I'm making these builds assuming we want to pursue war sooner rather than later. If this is not the case, these probably out to be swapped to courthouses.

(8) 650AD - Some deals expire. Everything we have is doubtful for Physics, which is a tech we could use to try a 2-fer with the Vikes for Metallurgy. We could deal for Music Theory if we wish...but even if we wanted Bach's, our prebuild isn't close.

(I) China comes offering us TM for TM+3. I decline. Some Roman ships sail around aimlessly.

(9) 660AD - ...

(I) Caesar demands 34g. Ouch. We would likely be in hot...no, steaming...no, actually boiling water if he came after us, so I cave. I'm of the opinion that at this current time, the phony war idea won't get us very far.

(10) 670AD - More deals expire, and we have 96 gpt. Furthermore, our Spices->Furs+6gpt with Rome and Spices->Incense+Dyes with China will be up for renegotiation.

Zaragoza can be swapped to a Caravel (due next turn) with no loss of shields.

I am not going to make any deals, because it will be up to the team (and the next leader) to determine the next purpose for our cash, now 333g and 96gpt: upgrading units, rushing units, or buying tech. Our military is still weak...frankly, mounting a successful invasion of any kind with the production base we've been stuck with will be (IMHO) a miracle. Still, I did slightly slow down production in a few cities in order to get growth (of any kind) moving forward. In the long run, we're going to need to be fishing to get enough cash to support whatever it is we want to do. Cities stuck at size 6 don't help much in that regard.

Best price on Physics is WM+74gpt+8g(China) or 9g(Iro). Physics can probably then can be part of a deal to get Metallurgy from Scandinavia.

The Save

 

[Quokka]

Good Turn.

Got it.

I will play to 800 to even out the years.

The Physics 2fer is very tempting but so is all that cash for infrastructure and military upgrades.

How about I build new Knights in Madrid and Barcelona and disband the Swords and Horses in towns for their shields. This will keep unit maintenance down and upgrade out military. I think I will pull the trigger on the Physics deal, it's 80 turns to do it ourselves.

I have a few hours before I can play so discussion is very welcome.

 

[jumbo2002]

I was leaning to the 2fer myself. I can see disbanding the swords, but we may want to keep the horses around to upgrade to knights with whatever cash we have left, even if it means waiting around 8 more turns until we reclaim more gpt to upgrade those horses.

 

[Quokka]

Ummm, I don't know how to say this other than I cocked up badly earlier.

We could try and snag Smiths. The Palace is 600 shields, the same as Smiths. Barcelona has 23 turns to go. We could manage that to slow it if necessary. If we go this way we should set the Scientist to Economics

Flipping through the cities when I got the game I noticed that it would only waste 68 shields to change to a Bank (160 shields) with 22 turns at 8spt for the Palace, or in other words our 400 shield Palace.
Sorry about this guys but we won't be getting Smiths.