RBTS6 - Finally Ready for Noble!

[darrelljs]

Heh-heh...just please everybody is the order of the day, says Compromise . BTW, I agree with you, RB is one of the few online communities I know of where strongly opinionated people debate (i.e. both sides listen to what the other has to say). Anyway, I played 10 very enjoyable turns, as evidenced by the 76 screenshots I took!

(0) Whip the Trebuchets in Moundville and Sakae, queue a Courthouse. I did a lot of that this turnset. I didn't try any fancy whip queue manipulations, mostly because I just don't like doing it. I would whip the unit, and let the fallout roll into the Courthouse, then just leave the Courthouse there until it was ready to be whipped. Might have been better for a micro whip meister to play this turnset, but we weren't that lucky . I reconfigure the capital for Merchant madness. Probably , as we need the GS and honestly with our cash reserves there is no risk, but with +100% gold in the city it was a nice jump in income. I spend about a minute trying to figure out why I can't fire the Spy and hire a Merchant in Lisbon, then hit enter.

(1) Mound City goes from Rifleman to Courthouse. I debated Settler, but with the Heroic Epic and Astronomy around the corner I wanted to grow some. Joao is coming at us with a stack consisting of a Catapult and...that's it. A Catapult. At least it is in the forest. Of course, Catapults don't get defensive bonuses and even if they did my Rifleman would not care. Troops advance.

(2) The Great Scientist is born . He'll bulb just over half of Scientific Method, it is the obvious right move but I hold onto him since it wouldn't complete the tech anyway. More advancing happens. I whip the Trebuchet at Nacogdoches and queue a Courthouse. Despite civilly disagreeing with Zeviz on drafting more troops, I decide not to draft more troops. We have way more than we need right now. I note that Lisbon is angry, very angry. In Roman style, I will whip the population down to one and get what I can out of it. I meant to do Forge first per Compromise's suggestion, but I accidently hit whip on the Granary (without even waiting for Hammers to be invested ). Oh well, at least I can draft for some reason (at only 15% Native American). More advancing :yawn:.

(3) IBT we catch another Spy . Forest chops outside the BFC have completed the Courthouse in Khoisan. We are at -11 gold/turn, due to troop supply costs. I should be pillaging, but I never remember.

(4) IBT Huyana Capac asks us to declare war on Spain. Hmm. They are annoying my friend, and I agree they must be destroyed, but not right now. Hannibal is their Friend and he is just barely Pleased with us. The Incan is now Annoyed with us. I put Khoisan on a Harbor reluctantly. I probably should have gone Grocer for the health and ability to run Merchants, but I'm thinking we will be wanting Harbors soon too. Oh, and I had to defy an AP resolution to stop the war on Joao. All Christian cities get major . I am now every glad it never got spread our way. The long process of bombarding Operto finally begins. Doubt I will wait for 0%. Evora is starving and hateful, so I pop them a Granary and queue a Courthouse. I also pop the Courthouse in Chaco Canyon. Economy still afloat .

(5) Pop a Rifle at Mesa Verde, queue up a Courthouse. Pop the Courthouse at Chaco Canyon.

(6) Lisbon revolts. Thanks! Hinduism spread in Anhaica. Cahokia is on full time Missionary duty. Coimbra's defenses mostly go down in one bombardment, kill a bunch of lousy troops with elite Rifles. Lagos's defenses go down in one bombardment, kill a bunch of lousy troops with elite Rifles. Zoom in and around the city and I can't fathom a reason to keep it, will get enough culture from Guimaraes to cover all the tiles except maybe one. We get a Great General, we now have a brace settled in Mound City . Whip the Theater in Guimaraes, and decide to run a Merchant and an Artist.

(7) Yay, Chemsitry is in, Scientific Method selected (again, GS will bulb more than half). Operto down to 16% defenses, and I kill a bunch of Portuguese:



Raze Lagos to the ground, adding 156 gold to the reserves. Do a lot more killing of the Portuguese at Coimbra (although we do lose a Rifleman to a Spear):



I hold onto her, she comes with a Forge, Colosseum, Market, Courthouse, and Church of the Nativity, which is bringing in 9 gold/turn! Joao is left with one city that contains a Chariot and a Horse Archer...

(8) ...and they promptly die and Joao is no more. I people won't know it for another 2 years though . Operto comes with the Hagia Sophia for all those Worker actions we aren't doing, an Academy, a Courthouse, and a Granary. Not bad at all! I set it on a Grocer. I also whip the Courthouse in Mound City, as the Great General arrived and settled. I figure why not build Galleys and upgrade them later? Whip the Trebuchet in Etowah, start a Courthouse.

(9) We fail the quest of Greed . Wonder how? Monty declares war on Izzy. Have fun with that, be sure to kill lots of your trips while killing her troops.

(10) Poverty Point completes a Rifle, and I decide a Galley is next for four turns, then switch over to a Settler and whip for Rice. We need Astronomy soon, luckily it is right around the corner. And that's it...I marched the troops up to the Korean borders, feel free to declare next turn. We have two stacks, one for the northern cities and one for the souther cities. He'll be gone by the time Sulla gets this game. Here is what you can use to kill Pyongyang and Seoul:



And here is what will kill Wonsan and Pusan:



Oh, and good luck saving that Worker .

Darrell

P.S. Sorry if the report reads rough, I just ran out of time and didn't get a chance to make it flow any better .

 

[Gr8scott]

lurker's comment:
Props to this variant for keeping things interesting even in mid-game!

Quick comment: I think you guys are missing out on a huge opportunity for intercontinental trade routes. You have tons of coastal cities, the Great Lighthouse operating (at least for now...), and you need a way to develop your cities with buildings rather than workers. Intercontinental trade routes seem like a huge no brainer!

The beauty of your situation is that the other continent is so backwards that they shouldn't be able to sniff astronomy for a thousand years. You will have a monopoly on intercontinental trade routes for the rest of the game (imo). Given harbors and custom houses can add multiples to this commerce, I think you will have a much better economy to lose the Collosus (?) and mercantilism and replace them with an intercontinental trade routes based economy.

I don't have the link handy, but Snaaty had a great walk-through demonstrating the power of these trade routes. They just seem ideal for this variant!

GS

 

[Sullla]

Hehe, excellent turnset. Eliminating Lagos was probably the right move as well. I just really hate to raze cities, the perfectionist in me likes to keep infrastructure intact as much as possible.

We're actually pretty darn close to Communism tech. Only about 3-4 more turns until we have enough beakers to lightbulb Scientific Method, then one turn to finish off Astronomy (after which we open up the trade routes/resource deals with the other continent) and then hopefully about 20 turns to the tech itself. We're basically counting on State Property to save us here economically - I'm confident it will. Pulled off miracles with that civic before in some of my past games.

I'd advocate keeping all of Wang's cities except Pyongyang, but we'll see what Compromise decides to do. It's your call if you want to burn down the other cities and refound later.

We also need to get some galleons and frigates going ASAP once we polish off Astronomy tech. That other continent's not going to invade itself.

 

[Zeviz]

Good job finishing off Portugal. Just one more enemy left on our continent.

About long term plans, I always thought we were going for conquest (by turning everybody into Vassals), rather than domination. However, domination is fine if you are sure we can pull it off.

Building cash is an emergency measure, and not a long term solution. (I went through all cities setting them to build cash, and got about 60gpt, which is barely enough to support 4 cities.) Hiring Merchants isn't even an option in most of our cities. I don't have much experience with intercontinental trade, so I don't know how well it would work out for us. Note that our chances of building build Customs Houses are even lower than our chances of building Banks. (And I think Banks would be better if we can afford that kind of production.) So I am not convinced we'll be able to pay for Domination just working 2gpt coastal tiles and trading we people we haven't annoyed.

I do agree about Communism, and perhaps we can even bump up research slider to get it faster.

...
That other continent's not going to invade itself.

Actually, the other continent is doing a rather thorough job of invading itself. We just want to help them do it more effectively.

 

[r_rolo1]

lurker's comment: I gave a small look at your game regarding Collosus vs intercontinental trade routes.

You have ATM 45 worked water tiles, generating 45 coins from Collosus effect. Your cities are quite small , especially the coastal ones. This means that it will be hard to atract juicy trade routes ( the ones with 5+ coins ) without harbors and costum Houses.....

My opinion is that you need to have harbors and costum houses in your cities and let them regrow do a sustainable level ( 8 -10 ) before obsoleting the Collosus. This means that you should whip them during the Korean war and let the cities grow during the rebuilding of the north. Otherwise i would not be surprised if didn't got one foreign intercontinental trade route for a while, resulting on a massive economical crashdown

 

[darrelljs]

Remember, intercontinental trade routes with your own cities get boosted . Hiring Merchants is easy, we just need Caste System. Although I do have some Grocers going, for the Wine health and ability to run non-Caste Merchants.

Zeviz,

Go to the strategy forum and search for threads started by Snaaty. He has some nice "trade economy" games. I had some fun playing around with the approach, you might want to give it a try.

Darrell

 

[Jabah]

lurker's comment
Don't forget that -due to your variant rules- you need to pillage (with a galley or manual WB) all the fishnet that Portugal and Korea have built ...

 

[Zeviz]

I've found a trade route formula in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159047

BTS explains it a lot better in that there are 2 components to trade
1.= Base value
Base Vaue is the SMALLER of
Population of Other city/10
AND
Distance to the other City * 15%->40% (Huge->Duel)
but Base Value has a Minimum possible value of 1

2. Modifiers, these are all +% and are added together and then the total is used to modify the base value.
Then the Base Values have % modifiers added, the % modifiers are
+5% for population of the Receiving city over 10
+25% if the receiving city has a connection to the Capital
+3% per turn since your last war with the civ (if it is another civ) [max 150%]
+50% if you have a Harbor
+100% for the ToArtemis
+100% if the other city is on another continent
+100% if it is another civ on another continent AND you have a Customs House

The distance modifier for Standard map is presumably 25%. So the base value should be pretty high. The bad news is that all other multipliers are additive, so being intercontinental contributes less than sustained peace. And Custom House seems worse than a Bank. (If the rote is already intercontinental, CH will add at most 50% of road value, but the Bank will add 50% of total cash output.) However, it looks like having a couple cities on another continent should be ok, and we'll get Communism by the time we have serious overseas holdings.

A few notes on other suggested solutions:

- Caste System will prevent us from using Slavery, which is our primary method of production. So it can be used only in emergencies.

- Building wealth also blocks production, so is also just an emergency measure.

- Growing cities will not help our trade, because you get bonus only for city sizes over 10. (At least the way I understood that formula.)

In summary, I am no longer opposed to keeping cities on our continent, provided we continue to prioritise infrastructure builds.

 

[Compromise]

Got it. Great turns, Darrell. I'll play late tonight or tomorrow. I think I'll probably give the intercontinental trade routes a chance. It'll be interesting at any route.

Don't expect much of WK's empire to remain for your turnset, Zeviz. I'll have to think about which cities will make the cut.

 

[Gr8scott]

lurker's comment:
Taking a look at the save, you have one big problem with intercontinental trade routes...

No one on the other continent will trade with you!!

Isabella and Monty do not have open border agreements with you
Hannibal and Hauyna are in mercantilism.

With that situation, astronomy is all downside (collosus lost) and no upside.

If you could trade with them, then each coastal city would get a min +4 commerce from international trade (1 min base, +100% for intercontinental, 4 routes from GLight) and that would offset the loss of up to 4 water tiles enhanced by the collosus.

As it stands you really need to foster trade before making the switch.

GS

 

[Compromise]

Halfway through the turnset, but too tired to continue. I'll decide tomorrow whether or not Wonsan burns.

 

[Quotey]

lurker's note: When you adopt state property, and get enough cities, the number of cities maintenence costs cap at 6GPT, so with 60GPT building wealth, that's 10 cities.

 

[darrelljs]

lurker's note: When you adopt state property, and get enough cities, the number of cities maintenence costs cap at 6GPT, so with 60GPT building wealth, that's 10 cities.

Interesting...I didn't realize it capped at 6. That means, under Caste System + Mercantilism + State Property, every city can instantly pay for itself. Of course, Mercantilism and State Property are mutually exclusive .

Darrell

 

[darrelljs]

I'll decide tomorrow whether or not Wonsan burns.

How can you even contemplate burning down such a wonderful place ?

Darrell

 

[timmy827]

lurker's note: When you adopt state property, and get enough cities, the number of cities maintenence costs cap at 6GPT

True, but...you're forgetting about civic maintenance and inflation.
For current civics (rep/nation/slavery/merc/OR, right? That's 3 med, 1 high, 1 zero. SP replaces a med with a low but that doesn't change things much.)

If the old formula (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/civic_upkeep.php) is correct, each population point you add is (on average) .41 gold and each city 1.68, so a size 8 city costs you about 5gpt from civcs pre-inflation. From the save, your inflation rate is about 50%, so even with state prop you're looking at ~16.5gpt per city, 22 if inflation gets to 100% (I don't know how that progression goes though).

 

[Compromise]

1740AD (0): I dial up our friend and see what kind of deals he's got for us. Look at that happy expression as I give him a reason not to chop down our...uh I mean his forests:



Cash is nice. I didn't switch to Free Market because I think we still want the hammers from free engineer specialists where we have them, but when we get overseas cities, it will be nice not to have to research Economics. Note to political historians: appeasement doesn't work.

I went through and changed some builds. I guess I didn't see the use of grocers in small, non-coastal cities. I think we're on growth infrastructure or military buildup from here on out.

Also, I burn our Scientist on Scientific Method. Saves 10T.

1742 AD (1): Here is the last known photo of Wang Kon before he was mercilessly betrayed by his "Noble" competitor:



Is that a hint of recognition? Is his last act to point to his betrayer? Yes and yes. The dogs of war are let loose and are heading east.

Our trade routes are cut again by Pyongyang's culture. Like before, the suffering will be temporary. Unlike last time, this time will be the *last* time.

Wang switches to Theocracy and Mercantilism. I'm pretty sure this means he'll be doing no building because of anarchy for the first of his few remaining years.

Wang had a few troops scattered about the continent. They tried to assault our "weakly" defended cities away from the front lines:



This result was typical.

1744AD (2): As we move on Wonsan--thank you for the fine link, Darrell--Wang responds with his mobile defense stack:



Our riflemen smile at one another and whistle a bit as they calmly approach this northern outpost.

1746AD (3): Approach and bombard. A few rifles are given leave to pillage.

1748AD (4): Wang attempts a counterstrike:



Let's see...he attacks the rifles who are fortifying in the forested hill outside the city with his mounted stack. One can only hope that the military genius in charge of this operation is not in the unit which fared best in the assault: the leading chariot which withdrew!

1786AD (5): Scientific Method comes in. I invite Marx and Engels to give a lecture series. Hannibal pops an Engineer. No wonder follows; I think our continent has (or had) them all.

1788AD (6): I bombard the defenses of Wonsan and Pyongyang and then go to bed. I should have saved some bombardment for later because I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

To be continued...

 

[Compromise]

1752AD (6) (cont): Morning dawns. I get coffee. Defenses are low, but I am in no hurry.

<Interturn> We experience my morning napalm after all...from a Korean Hwacha:



1754AD (7): The smell of napalm--even on our own troops--does in fact make me happy. Trigger-happy. I am promptly returned to reality by some some crummy die rolls:



... and lose 3 or so battles that I really should have won. So I can't take Pyongyang this turn.

I think I also left a single defender in Wonsan (a mighty Spearman!) last turn in the hopes that this would draw in some no-fortify-bonus defenders to flat Wonsan instead of hilly Pyongyang. This worked.

But now the point of decision has come:



Keep or burn...keep or burn...keep or burn. On the one hand, it's mighty cold up here in the north, and some fire would make the troops happy. On the other hand, this city has lots of water and should be able to draft for a while.

Okay, we'll keep it. I do think Pusan should be razed though.

1756AD (8): Something happens with Incan nobility. I am too conceited to be bothered with the details. I mostly want to get on with this:



...and Pyongyang is reduced to rubble. Already our people--especially those in cities with granaries--are salivating at the prospect of rice pilaf for dinner. A settler is en route.

1758AD (9): A Great Artist is born in Seoul. I hope he settles there to chronicle the fall of the Korean Empire.

1760AD (10): Our troops continue to march east. Some stop to pillage. Meanwhile, back on the homefront:



Oh quit your whining. It's not like we've got you working out in the fields all day. Lazy bums.

........................................................................................................
And that's the report. Sorry there wasn't much drama this time.

Lots of moving of troops. Many are now headed to Sakae, which is likely to become a departure point to the other island. Also, lots of work done on courthouses, though I think I only finished one, so little whipping. A few drafts, but not many. I wanted to save population for galleon and courthouse whipping.

The economy's not it terrible shape. Well, it is at the moment because the slaves are revolting (and they're protesting too ) in Cahokia, but that's worth about 90gpt. But we're roughly breaking even at 100% cash.

I've saved up a boatload of cash: didn't spend much, nice trade from Wang, city-capture cash, some pillaging by non-siege units. I think it's probably time to discover Astronomy and get the boats loaded up for the overseas assault.

For the most part, all our workers did was pre-chop forests.

Switching to Free Market is an option. I'd probably hold off and do it some time when we're at negative cash flow (the old Moonsinger Doctrine!) early in the assault of the new continent.

I forgot to clean up the empire of those offensive tile improvements, though our troops have done a bit of pillaging of many of the valuable ones while waiting to assault Pyongyand and Wonsan. Also, look for chopping workers. Not all of them have had their orders cancelled.

The save is all yours, Zeviz. Claim this continent for us and us alone.

 

[Zeviz]

Looks like I'll be starting preparations for invasion of another continent.

Whom should we attack?

My plan is:

1. Do 1 or 2 turns of 100% research towards Communism while troops are on the move (to convert some cash into research)

2. Finish Astronomy, whip and chop Galeons.

3. Load them as soon as Korea is gone (letting troops heal in transit) and set sail towards Hanibal (continuing to take down leaders).

4. Build mostly infra at home, to bring economy under control after loss of Colossus.

5. WB away all improvements in our territory we haven't pillaged yet.

Sounds good?

PS I suggest attacking AI leaders on the other continent, because we probably will not reach domination with just Izzy's and Monty's lands, and the other two are too close to Gunpowder for comfort. (I don't want to face Grens with our Rifleman army.)

 

[darrelljs]

Looks good...I zoomed in on Ponsan and it has a Library and Granary, but no Courthouse. I really don't see the need to keep it either, we'll get a third border pop from Seoul eventually, and that will grab most of the tiles. Hannibal and HC have Gunpowder; they are two techs away from Grenadiers. To be honest at this point I don't think it matters who we attack next, I'd probably go after Carthage next:



Who knows, mabye an extra six turns of golden age might come in handy? I don't see any reason not to burn all our cash on Communism now. Poverty Point is about to pop a great perrson, if it is a Merchant a cash bomb seems like a good idea.

Darrell

P.S. Compromise, the Grocers were for health (Wine) and the ability to run Merchants without Caste System. The latter I guess would be the only purpose for small inland cities but I didn't think we had any of those .

 

[Sullla]

Note to political historians: appeasement doesn't work.

Really enjoyed the report, especially that line. The screenshot of Wang smiling and pointing at the player (with the war declaration showing) was pretty funny too.

Where to next? I would probably think Monty or Isabella, if only because they would make the easiest targets. I'm not at all concerned about AI grenadiers in the hands of Incans or Carthaginians, for third reasons. First, the AI just doesn't build a lot of grenadiers, in my experience. Secondly, remember that the grenadier boost against rifles only works on the attack - not on the defense. I can't see huge stacks of AI grenadiers having the coordination to pull off an attack that actually hurts us. Third, even if the AI does build grenadiers - so what? We're four times the size of anyone else over there, and we have an inexhaustable supply of conscript rifles to throw at them. Heck, I think we could probably beat the AIs if they had INFANTRY by sheer weight of numbers. I can't see anyone getting to rifles before we manage to finish the game.

So I don't think it matters who we choose to attack. I'm cool with whatever Zeviz decides. I'd just go for the weakest animal in the herd and establish our beach head overseas with the minimal fuss.