Religion for a tradition opener

[Gokudo01]

I haven't played trad for long time now and I was wondering which follower should be a priority.

As tradition, you will have lots of farm in order to grow and work every specialist possible even outside of the capital because you get +15% extra specialist point.

Mastery is great but the effect fall off extremely fast outside of culture bonus.
Cathedral is great but doesn't help much early when you pick it
Cooperation has got some nice synergy with growth bonus.

I can't figure out what is the most optimised choice when I have the choice ( obviously )

Please help me.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Mastery is a must IMO for tradition as odds that's a flat +2 PER specialist PER turn it adds up, especially since as Tradition you're likely going for a great person spam strategy since each GP-Improvement grants +1 food from finisher. Also since as Tradition you're GOING to want your Holy City to be your capital it's nice to have as your first follower belief.

Cathedrals make for a good second belief if available IMO as the farm upgrade synergizes well with Imperialism (for late game warmongering) and Freedom (for more specialist/G.Person focus)

I can't really speak to cooperation as while yes it syncs nice with the growth it's only good when cities are still growing, still new, and tradition is not good at getting new cities functional very quickly. As tradition I tend to keep number of cities low most games so I can't recommend that too much, although it well help new cities get up faster.

That said a Tradition Capital Holy City is a great source for an Apostle spam strategy from Apostolic Tradition (Food from spread) + Churches (3 spread per missionary).

 

[CrazyG]

Depends on the situation, but I when in doubt I would pick Mastery. Especially if you are going really hardcore for specialists great people, like Korea or Arabia. Just stack every bonus you can find onto specialists/great people, and work as many as you can.

Even playing India I find Cathedrals isn't a necessity. Notre Dame is a thing and a really good idea for a tradition capital. Cooperation is better for a bigger empire, so I would stay away if on 4 cities, but consider it if on 6 or 7.

Synagogues, Pagodas, Mandirs, and Aestheticism are also worth looking into.

 

[Gokudo01]

Okay it seems that people really like Mastery. I will prioritize it next time.

 

[tu_79]

There are several things to take into account.

1. Are you using a religious civ? If so, you'll have more faith generation than others and you can take more active beliefs. This means religious buildings can be purchased everywhere. Not that you need to take buildings beliefs, but the option is there.
2. Has your civ an unique improvement? If so, then farm clusters might not be that brilliant, and cathedrals lose a bit of luster.
3. Are you really focusing in great people? Like, having lots of food (India, Inca) or growth (China) or extra people (Arabia). Then mastery is the go to choice. If you prefer to work your tiles (when they are really good you may prefer them over any specialist), then another option that works well is bonuses per citizen born.
4. Do you have enough food? If not (desert, tundra, hills), then food per follower might be useful. Tradition gives you growth, but not food.
5. You are not alone. Depending on the circumstances, pagodas, orders, culture, production could be the best answer. Maybe they are a short time answer, but if you die there is no long answer.

 

[Gokudo01]

There are several things to take into account.

1. Are you using a religious civ? If so, you'll have more faith generation than others and you can take more active beliefs. This means religious buildings can be purchased everywhere. Not that you need to take buildings beliefs, but the option is there.
2. Has your civ an unique improvement? If so, then farm clusters might not be that brilliant, and cathedrals lose a bit of luster.
3. Are you really focusing in great people? Like, having lots of food (India, Inca) or growth (China) or extra people (Arabia). Then mastery is the go to choice. If you prefer to work your tiles (when they are really good you may prefer them over any specialist), then another option that works well is bonuses per citizen born.
4. Do you have enough food? If not (desert, tundra, hills), then food per follower might be useful. Tradition gives you growth, but not food.
5. You are not alone. Depending on the circumstances, pagodas, orders, culture, production could be the best answer. Maybe they are a short time answer, but if you die there is no long answer.

I don't know how to categorize Ethiopia by the way.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't know how to categorize Ethiopia by the way.

Civs that wish they were India?

 

[Dawnpromise]

I don't know how to categorize Ethiopia by the way.

Ethiopia can be played Religious due to Faith bonus on Steele. Generally I find 'Religious' to mean "Do they have a faith bonus in the ancient era?"

 

[Owlbebach]

IMO if you go Tradition - you most likely want to win via tourism (otherwise going Tradition doesn't make much sense, authority+war is better for both diplo and science), so you want as much specialists as possible throughout the game. Mastery + Food-per-Follower is probably one of the best combos. I'll throw out a controversial idea and say that Food-per-Follower is stronger than Mastery, but i think you'll have more chances of getting both if you take Mastery first. AI loves Mastery.

And ofcourse tha depends on your founder, if you took Apostolic Tradition (not the best choice for tourism, but not the worst) - you might want to take Mosques

 

[CrazyG]

IMO if you go Tradition - you most likely want to win via tourism (otherwise going Tradition doesn't make much sense, authority+war is better for both diplo and science), so you want as much specialists as possible throughout the game. Mastery + Food-per-Follower is probably one of the best combos. I'll throw out a controversial idea and say that Food-per-Follower is stronger than Mastery, but i think you'll have more chances of getting both if you take Mastery first. AI loves Mastery.

And of course tha depends on your founder, if you took Apostolic Tradition (not the best choice for tourism, but not the worst) - you might want to take Mosques

It really bothers me when people factually state something that is so very debatable, like "authority+war is better for both diplo and science", so I'll issue a challenge to you. How fast can you get a spaceship built using authority? Using progress or authority, I cannot get even close to how early my tradition spaceship is. I'm tired of doing the theoretical debate on this, so lets share results. I got 270 last beta, in a game where I got 4th religion and missed mastery, instead taking food for followers (which I consider much, much worse for a typical tradition empire). I'm not saying that in a specific scenario, it isn't worth taking food for follower, but food trade routes and the hanging gardens provide similar benefits for a lower opportunity cost IMO. Mandirs are worth quite a bit more food most of the timel, and the assassination block is great

Mosques are a pretty bad choice if you build the University of Sankore (which I find a pretty easy wonder to get), it gives a free mosque in your capital

 

[Owlbebach]

It really bothers me when people factually state something that is so very debatable, like "authority+war is better for both diplo and science", so I'll issue a challenge to you. How fast can you get a spaceship built using authority? Using progress or authority, I cannot get even close to how early my tradition spaceship is. I'm tired of doing the theoretical debate on this, so lets share results. I got 270 last beta, in a game where I got 4th religion and missed mastery, instead taking food for followers (which I consider much, much worse for a typical tradition empire). I'm not saying that in a specific scenario, it isn't worth taking food for follower, but food trade routes and the hanging gardens provide similar benefits for a lower opportunity cost IMO. Mandirs are worth quite a bit more food most of the timel, and the assassination block is great

Mosques are a pretty bad choice if you build the University of Sankore (which I find a pretty easy wonder to get), it gives a free mosque in your capital

Don't get angry)
First of all, as far as i remember we play very different map setups, lets share them too cause it greatly affects the game. I had something between 270-280 for Korea on Huge Pangea with 18 Civs, but that was long time ago. Last time my friend got something like 400-420 on Epic speed on Large Pangea with 15 civs whic i think is even better than 270 on standard speed. We finished on 375 cause it became obvious that we won, so can't tell the exact turn, but he was 1,5 eras ahead of everyone. He played Progress Byz. Also we play without Ruins, without tech trade, without Research Agreements.

Regarding food for followers - i think that depends on the situation, if you have wheat on flood plains - you don't need it. From my point of view Tradition seriously depends on growth early on, indeed with food for followers your specialists will be less efficient, but you will have more of them and it starts to snowball around Medival. Lets say in Renaissance-Industrial you have something like 6-7 specialists per sity (except capital), so Mastery gives you 12-14 additional yields, while food for followers will give you 3-4 more free specialists per city which is 15-20 additional yields. Ofcourse it is very rough and inaccurate calculation and specialists are not equal, but still i think this beliefs are at leats about equal, each one can be better depending on circumstances.

For Mosques+Tradition i agree, they are bad. I forgot about Sankore

 

[CrazyG]

Don't get angry)

Maybe I stated that too strongly.

I agree mastery vs aestheticism depends on the situation, but "when in doubt, go mastery" remains my advice for a confused player. The math of mastery is just really good, it provides a lot of yields very early (such India getting that religion turn 50 and working 4 specialists, its so satisfying). Even with a pretty low amount of specialists being worked, its will provide a high number of raw yields. It also makes extremes possible, its worth science and culture now, then when I want to build that wonder, I work engineers and it provides hammers. Its just such a flexible, easy to get bonus. I almost always have the option to work more food if I want more food, but I don't always have the option to work more science/culture. Mastery provides that. Now I'm not saying that mastery is always the best belief, in situations others will work better. But most of the time, I think its the best. And the times its not, its probably a close second.

For "best" at a science win, its hard to define. Only recent games matter because of how much the game changes. I do think tradition does it really well. Maybe a few specific civs are better with other options (notably Byzantium with Progress and Evangelism, or Assyria on a very large map), but for the typical civ in most circumstances, I think tradition will do it fastest. I find the biggest reason not to science win with tradition, is because culture wins happen faster.