Religion game balance

[Tlalynet]

That could be fairly said about Maelstrom, to be honest its one of the few spells I've never actually used. It still shouldn't be too strong compared to fireball which is the same tier. I think it is somewhat difficult to control though and has a risk of DoWing on allies (or is that just the OO priest spell?) so that risk factor is more than enough to warrant it being stronger than fireball.

 

[readercolin]

I can't speak for competitive multiplayer, but for myself when I play with the religions, there are a few things that you are missing.

Ashen Veil - nothing to say here

Empyrian - The biggest part that you missed here (imo) is that you can get druids who can also cast crown of brilliance, giving you 9 units capable of casting that spell, and that spell is usually strong enough that 3 of them can reduce an opponent's strength to 25% (i believe it is capped at 75% damage). The downside is that these units are lategame, but you can get them fairly soonish if you rush for it. In addition, at least for the amurites, these units would also be able to function as archmages, and because crown of brilliance generally lasts 2-3 turns (it fires at the start of every turn, after you first cast it, until it runs out), giving these units say, ice 3 in addition, or just some sort of summon, would probably be very useful.

Order - I might rate basilica's higher here, especially as when you combine them with courthouses/law mana (which the holy building provides 1), it is very easy to run a large empire for free. Specifically, you would need a total of 4 law mana, to run every city for free, unless a tavern or gambling house is built in the city (2 law mana are necessary to neutralize the effects of each). Combining this with social order (+1 happy per military unit) and suddenly the answer to every problem is more units

FoL - nothing more to say here

CoE - shadowriders can actually be very powerful, especially if you stack shadow mana. Remember, they are strength 9, +2 poison, and can use bronze/iron/mithril. This means that if you have mithril, they are already strength 15, and a mere 5 shadow mana (on a huge map, not difficult if you aren't devoting your mana to other strategies), its already strength 20. The downside is of course that they come extremely late - usually, too late to make a difference. As I don't play competitive multiplayer (I generally play cooperatively with my girlfriend), I can't say whether or not it might be worth it to try to use them.

RoK - The additional gold from RoK is enough to allow me to base some very powerful strategies around it (including being able to outproduce deity AI's unitwise as the dwarves). However, due to how early it is, and that early access to iron and its hero's I might rate it higher. Also, don't forget that Arete is the earliest civic that allows you to purchase units/buildings/wonders under construction, and this is in addition to giving +1 hammers per mine.

Lastly, OO - you ignored this because of the maps you play on. I think that this is a big mistake, as if I'm playing anything other than the Khazid, OO is generally my favored religion. The reason is because snatching the Tower of Complacency in a nice food city gives me a massive powerhouse capable of producing many great people (and after building it, I can always switch out if I want). In addition, with the ToC, comes saverous, a strength 7 unit who appears at the same time as bambur - aka, long before any other hero except bambur/gilden/Rantine. For early wars, putting him at the head of your army is usually very rewarding. Also, their temple gives a free sage slot, and again with ToC, you get the asylum, which in addition to giving you a 15% research boost, gives you another 3 sage slots - the only downside is the occasional crazed unit, but the lurchip at least aren't bothered by this (it only affects living units, so other civ's also wouldn't be affected depending upon what they built, if they just put the asylum in a few cities). Moving past this, their priests have the strongest non-teir 4 direct damage spell in the game, with a damage cap at 60%. The only downside is that it has to be cast near water, but one thing to keep in mind is this is not just seas/oceans, it can also be triggered on lakes. That being said, it is still a little less useful than Ring of fire. The next thing in their favor is the Stygan Guard, which is possibly the most powerful melee unit in the game, especially as it starts with march (note, this is of units that can be mass produced, not counting national units here). There are also a number of tricks that you can pull with them, but those are subjects for another thread. Lastly, there is hemah. If you are using archmages, hemah is the best, especially as unlike gibbon, he doesn't cast illusions. However, he isn't truly OP until you make him balsferas (with the summoner trait), as hemah with twincast and a summon can in 3 turns have a constant guard of 8 summons through the puppets, or if he also managed to snatch enchant 3, you can boost that up to 12 or so for a turn or two. If you make those water elementals, with the tower of elements, theoretically you can get as many as 160 water elementals (due to their splitting), however I have never had that actually happen, as eventually the water elementals start winning, making the point moot.

I hope that my input was somewhat useful.

-Colin

 

[Antiquado]

That could be fairly said about Maelstrom, to be honest its one of the few spells I've never actually used. It still shouldn't be too strong compared to fireball which is the same tier. I think it is somewhat difficult to control though and has a risk of DoWing on allies (or is that just the OO priest spell?) so that risk factor is more than enough to warrant it being stronger than fireball.

Maelstrom will cause damage on all units but only to a point (don't remember exactly, but I think that units stops taking damage when they are at 70% max HP, whereas RoF is more).

The thing about Maelstrom is that it is often hard to use without affecting your own units (ouch) or neutral units (=> war), due to the 2 square range. It is of course it's strength also, used properly in the right environment. I think it's ok balanced against fireballs that can actually kill units.

 

[apenpaap]

Lastly, there is hemah. If you are using archmages, hemah is the best, especially as unlike gibbon, he doesn't cast illusions. However, he isn't truly OP until you make him balsferas (with the summoner trait), as hemah with twincast and a summon can in 3 turns have a constant guard of 8 summons through the puppets, or if he also managed to snatch enchant 3, you can boost that up to 12 or so for a turn or two. If you make those water elementals, with the tower of elements, theoretically you can get as many as 160 water elementals (due to their splitting), however I have never had that actually happen, as eventually the water elementals start winning, making the point moot.

Hemah is very powerful indeed. I beat the Lord of the Balors scenario with my stack of doom consisting of just him, Saverous, and 10 champions via exactly that strategy.

 

[Antiquado]

I can't speak for competitive multiplayer, but for myself when I play with the religions, there are a few things that you are missing.

Ashen Veil - nothing to say here

Empyrian - The biggest part that you missed here (imo) is that you can get druids who can also cast crown of brilliance, giving you 9 units capable of casting that spell, and that spell is usually strong enough that 3 of them can reduce an opponent's strength to 25% (i believe it is capped at 75% damage). The downside is that these units are lategame, but you can get them fairly soonish if you rush for it. In addition, at least for the amurites, these units would also be able to function as archmages, and because crown of brilliance generally lasts 2-3 turns (it fires at the start of every turn, after you first cast it, until it runs out), giving these units say, ice 3 in addition, or just some sort of summon, would probably be very useful.

The druids using crown of brilliance is totally new to me, and certainly counts in favor of the empyrian!

Order - I might rate basilica's higher here, especially as when you combine them with courthouses/law mana (which the holy building provides 1), it is very easy to run a large empire for free. Specifically, you would need a total of 4 law mana, to run every city for free, unless a tavern or gambling house is built in the city (2 law mana are necessary to neutralize the effects of each). Combining this with social order (+1 happy per military unit) and suddenly the answer to every problem is more units .

If I understand you correctly, the 5% reduction in upkeep per law mana source is what you're going for. Could you elaborate on how you get to 0 upkeep?

Also, i don't know if it is beacuse you are typically running heavy reassource maps or you're just used to owning half the world, but I rarely get more than 1-3 mana sources, and in that case I would be much more interested in opening up the possibility of my mages using fire/sun mana instead. Am I missing something completely, here?

FoL - nothing more to say here


CoE - shadowriders can actually be very powerful, especially if you stack shadow mana. Remember, they are strength 9, +2 poison, and can use bronze/iron/mithril. This means that if you have mithril, they are already strength 15, and a mere 5 shadow mana (on a huge map, not difficult if you aren't devoting your mana to other strategies), its already strength 20. The downside is of course that they come extremely late - usually, too late to make a difference. As I don't play competitive multiplayer (I generally play cooperatively with my girlfriend), I can't say whether or not it might be worth it to try to use them.

Again, really interested in how you get all that mana
But I still think that the comparison to normal knights even out the shadowrider benefit, do you not agree?

RoK - The additional gold from RoK is enough to allow me to base some very powerful strategies around it (including being able to outproduce deity AI's unitwise as the dwarves). However, due to how early it is, and that early access to iron and its hero's I might rate it higher. Also, don't forget that Arete is the earliest civic that allows you to purchase units/buildings/wonders under construction, and this is in addition to giving +1 hammers per mine.

RoK certainly have a huge effect on commerce. Perhaps this is not reflected fairly in our assessment, and should earn RoK a few more points, making it move towards the top of the list. I think the problem with Arete is often the civics you cannot use while using it.

Lastly, OO - you ignored this because of the maps you play on. I think that this is a big mistake, as if I'm playing anything other than the Khazid, OO is generally my favored religion. The reason is because snatching the Tower of Complacency in a nice food city gives me a massive powerhouse capable of producing many great people (and after building it, I can always switch out if I want). In addition, with the ToC, comes saverous, a strength 7 unit who appears at the same time as bambur - aka, long before any other hero except bambur/gilden/Rantine. For early wars, putting him at the head of your army is usually very rewarding. Also, their temple gives a free sage slot, and again with ToC, you get the asylum, which in addition to giving you a 15% research boost, gives you another 3 sage slots - the only downside is the occasional crazed unit, but the lurchip at least aren't bothered by this (it only affects living units, so other civ's also wouldn't be affected depending upon what they built, if they just put the asylum in a few cities). Moving past this, their priests have the strongest non-teir 4 direct damage spell in the game, with a damage cap at 60%. The only downside is that it has to be cast near water, but one thing to keep in mind is this is not just seas/oceans, it can also be triggered on lakes. That being said, it is still a little less useful than Ring of fire. The next thing in their favor is the Stygan Guard, which is possibly the most powerful melee unit in the game, especially as it starts with march (note, this is of units that can be mass produced, not counting national units here). There are also a number of tricks that you can pull with them, but those are subjects for another thread. Lastly, there is hemah. If you are using archmages, hemah is the best, especially as unlike gibbon, he doesn't cast illusions. However, he isn't truly OP until you make him balsferas (with the summoner trait), as hemah with twincast and a summon can in 3 turns have a constant guard of 8 summons through the puppets, or if he also managed to snatch enchant 3, you can boost that up to 12 or so for a turn or two. If you make those water elementals, with the tower of elements, theoretically you can get as many as 160 water elementals (due to their splitting), however I have never had that actually happen, as eventually the water elementals start winning, making the point moot.

You're blowing me away with this description. I've always had a bit of remorse of not playing on water maps, due to the lack of hit and run tactics sailing provides. But the description of OO makes me think that we've taken an alltogether wrong decision in sticking to the Fantasy_realm map without ocens.
Although our original purpose with this strength comparison was to find out if someone had undiscovered counterstrategies or competing strategies to the AV supremacy, I suddenly think the outcome has been a completely other one. I'm pretty much hyped about (re-)opening up the world of the vast seas right now!

I hope that my input was somewhat useful.

-Colin

You have no idea - and thank you very much for spending the time!

 

[Ekolite]

Totally agree with Reader Colin's view of the overlords. It's a very powerful religion. Also, like RoK, it has the advantage that you can pass through the religion, get some use out of it, then convert to a later-game religion. With RoK, you often pass through it for the goldmine temples and holy shrine, in the case of OO, you can build the Tower of Complacency then go elsewhere. Usually to AV.

A city with the Tower of Compacency and City of Slums under StW is a real sight to behold. The best city site for this is one that is surrounded as much as possible with grassland and/or flood plains. Production isn't important because you can get all your production from engineers once you get the right civics. Rush the wonders if they would take too long to build.

EDIT: Or if you're really sneaky, have them built in the holy city of the CoE and run merchants .

 

[Tlalynet]

If the damadge cap is 70% that seem fair for maelstrom. It fits in line with me wanting RoF to cap at 80% and letting CoB cap at 50%, thats an even progression of the teirs.

For Order, Courthouse -40%, Basilica -40%, Shrine Law Mana -5%, so you need palace mana and two nodes or three nodes to reduce maintainence to 0%. Gov't bonuses are calculated before this so even in God King you get 0 maintainence, but the tavern and gambling house penalties are after this so they ought not be built if you want a true no maintainence empire.

You get mages with summon hosts for free, and you get valour on all your archmages, so its not a terrible mage strategy either. If your running order you will probably have big normal military and valour helps that a lot. The strategy doesn't produce the best archmages though.

Really good OO writeup ReaderCollin. I can remember putting the tower on an oddly shaped peninsula as the Lannuan and getting Herons Throne. That city was great for food, hammers, and commerce from pretty early on, once it got Slum City I was just disappointed that I couldn't harvest all the ocean tiles because of a weird rule where deep ocean tiles aren't workable. I still need to have a Luchirp OO game.

 

[Nor'easter]

The druids using crown of brilliance is totally new to me, and certainly counts in favor of the empyrian!

What he means specifically is that instead of building Druids directly you can upgrade them from other units, including T2 priest units. (The same is true of Paladins and Eidolons.)

So if you're neutral and worshiping Empyrean, you can upgrade Vicars to Druids rather than building Druids directly. (You still need a city with a Grove in it to do the upgrade). So you end up with Druids that, like Luridi, can cast Crown of Brilliance in addition to the regular Druid spells.

 

[aimlessgun]

I'm pretty much hyped about (re-)opening up the world of the vast seas right now!

Be careful with that as with the current patch the AI doesn't really build ships. And even without that being broken the AI still pretty much sucks at ships.

I really hate playing on Pangeas so what I've done last few games is generate a continents-ish map, and after I've maxed out my exploring, hitting Worldbuilder and making sure that everything has a land connection, and just making land bridges between things that don't.

 

[readercolin]

The free empire comes from a few things - First, courthouse (-40%), then basilica (-40%), then 4 law mana (-5% each). When playing with a leader who starts with law mana, grabbing the Code of Junil brings you up to 2, requiring that you only get 2 more law mana to be able to run a free empire - In most games that I play, I usually end up with 2-4 mana nodes, meaning that this can be a pretty easy strategy to run.

As for the shadowriders, again if you have a civ that starts with shadow mana, get nox noctis, you would only need 3 mana nodes to devote to shadow to be able to bring them up to strength 20 (if you have mithril - 18 if you just have iron).

On to Arete, in the early game you have the choice between arete, apprenticeship, and that warfare one. Of those three, if I am anywhere near hills, arete is always the winner for me. Again, as you get later into the game, then you can swith to guilds/caste system/whatever, but as the best economy civic in that catagory in the early game, it is an excelent stopping point (no, I'm not saying run it the whole game, just run it early).

Lastly, for the mana issue. Always, always, ALWAYS, work towards something that your civ supports. So if you are playing the sidar, and you grab CoE, you will always have 2 shadow mana - it seems something of a no brainer to try to buff shadow mana more then. Speaking for myself, I always manage to get a minimum of 2 mana nodes around my cities on the maps I play on (usually crowded pangea/tectonics/global highlands/continents). Often I manage to snatch 3-4 if I expand fast. Early game, you focus on one strategy, later, you switch. Therefore, if I have 3 mana nodes, a palace that provides shadow mana, and Nox Noctis, I'm not going to turn those three mana nodes into shadow nodes for the whole game - one is going to be devoted to metamagic for a bit, and then once lategame arrives I'll switch them over to shadow for the affinity bonuses if thats what I'm going for.

-Colin

 

[apenpaap]

Be careful with that as with the current patch the AI doesn't really build ships. And even without that being broken the AI still pretty much sucks at ships.

The AI builds ships again in patch K.

 

[aimlessgun]

the ai builds ships again in patch k.

hoooray

 

[Antiquado]

We've clearly underestimated the Basilica. I personally always forget that CIV deals in cumulative percentage points, not in percentages, so 40%+40% equals 80%, which in itself is A LOT of upkeep reduction.
Scribble, scribble - new strategies adopted ;-)

 

[Tlalynet]

Patch M notes

13. Ring of Flames damage reduced from 20 to 15%.

I found that pretty cool, will that help your games Antiquado?

 

[Antiquado]

Patch M notes

13. Ring of Flames damage reduced from 20 to 15%.

I found that pretty cool, will that help your games Antiquado?

That's an excellent start, that's for sure!

 

[rvarnell]

Not much to add here, other than that I've used the shadowrider strategy before and its very powerful with the sidar and with the hippus. Hippus + COE + shadow mana + Ride of the 9(?) Kings wonder = an unstoppable force. Fast (horselord) + strong (16 to 20 strength based on # of shadow mana) + free experience points (always go down the drill line here, as you can get blitz relatively quickly - once you have blitz, the combat bonuses come quickly as you're killing 2-4 units per turn). Using this strategy, you have 4 units that are twice as strong (at a minimum) as the mounted religious heros in the game. So its good that they come late. Of course, getting to them is the problem...

 

[Tlalynet]

You've got a point there.