Religion on Deity

[Xile]

Maybe the reason AI left them out is because Tithes is not as powerful as it seems.

Well, if you have the infinite power of flying spaghetti monster on your side and somehow manage to get tithes + religious texts, it's pretty ridiculous.

 

[Tyxerxa]

I managed to found one as Ethiopia, too, but it was pretty lucky. The difficulty is getting a religion up in any culture game. Piety is closely tied to religion, but religion and culture don't go together too well. This is my main point of critique - culture focusses on smaller and taller empires, religion benefits more from wide ones. Being forced into Piety, but wasting 2/6 politics is a waste.

 

[omnishakira]

Yeah thats pretty stupid I had a Religious CS with Alexander and still havent managed to found one

The only time I founded one was with the Celt, my capital was around 3 forest tiles so I started with +2 faith.

Anyway religion isnt very good, borderline useless

 

[MadDjinn]

Deity isn't hard enough yet.

Founding a religion is hard, but not that hard with the right plans.

Adjust/adapt and get better.

As vexing said - it's not 'required'. But it does provide benefits that you wouldn't have as well as using it's own resources - so you aren't spending much outside of shrines/temples on it.

 

[peddroelm]

Incidentally or not the civ with best odds of founding a religion on deity (lucky faith ruins/wonders non-withstanding) are the celts ..

Forest starting bias helps with the UA and early wonder building (also balances out the chances for the heavy faith generating pantheons tundra/desert)

Tradition route - first pick at Monument to the Gods Pantheon: (15% Production of Ancient/Classical Wonders) + Tradition Aristocracy (15% Production bonus Wonders) -> gives great odds at sniping Stonehenge ... Also helps getting NC up a bit faster ... Decent chances for Oracle too...

Liberty route - Republic helps building early shrines all over the place (1 citizen new cities settled near forests) ...

You can of course do the same with the other civs - but best odds lie with the Celts ...

 

[Hambil]

I'd say Mayans myself. Free great prophet as you first Mayan calendar choice.

 

[SlithyTove]

I've had reliable luck founding one as Ethiopa. I assume some of the other "founder" civs like Celts would be fine as well.

Any civ without early bonuses will have a rough time though. I've tried a few Byzantium games and have only managed to pull a religion with a combination of natural wonder and horrific over-extension that bites me in the end anyway. Since Byzantium is completely religion dependent it means most games Theo has no UA at all.

 

[Resonance]

I think it is fine as it is. Unless you have access to natural wonders or a play a religious civ, you will just end up on the passive side of religion and have to live with what others spread to you. Just about right for the highest difficulty.

 

[jeespoks]

Deity isn't hard enough yet.

Founding a religion is hard, but not that hard with the right plans.

Adjust/adapt and get better.

As vexing said - it's not 'required'. But it does provide benefits that you wouldn't have as well as using it's own resources - so you aren't spending much outside of shrines/temples on it.

Agreed on Deity being not hard enough, mainly because AI is still quite terrible in combat but founding religion can be crazy hard, at least what I gather from my brief G&K experience. In two of three games I've played so far, all religions were gone before turn 70. Even early SH can't guarantee you religion, if you happen to get it. SH might be gone turn 30-40.

 

[peddroelm]

Achieved my first G&K deity (normal speed/continents) victory - Ethiopia via spaceship T278 .. Religion played a huge part ...


Started cornered with Alexander as closest neighbor ... Went tradition (lack of space to expand but also it synergizes quite well with the Ethiopian UB) .. Managed to settle 3 cities - second was coastal with Great Barrier Reef in range - picked the faith for world wonder Pantheon ... Rest perks for religion were (pagodas, cheaper missionaries, extra growth during peace & tithe )

- from early on to med game the big faith generation gave me quite a bit of influence with several city states by winning faith races ... Later on started to lose the faith challenges (had ~50 faith/turn (settled a prophet eventually) - AIs get more during late game )

- established/enhanced religion -brought the 3 pagodas - then went into conversion rampage (4 city states and Alexander who luckily was religion free)... Conversion helped curb his violent tendencies towards his other neighbors (China & the Dutch) ... Early game he went into Wonder spree and allowed me time to settle without a DOW .. During endgame opening up Order also helped diplomacy with Alexander (my only neighbor all game long)...

- tithe helped immensely more than doubling my NET income from mid to endgame and allowed me to keep 4 CS perma allied (2 cultured (mandatory) , 1 faith & 1 maritime) .. Also helped fund numerous RAs that allowed me to establish tech lead towards the end game ..Having tech lead allowed my spies to help tighten my grasp on my 4 allied CS ...The most promoted spy camped my capital and killed a few enemy spies ..

- settled 5 GS - 2 brought with faith (1k+1.5k). Bulbed 5 GS after Research labs - 1 before Hubble ,2 from Hubble , 1 with faith (2.5 k ) and another one generated normally (800 GS points) ...

- Used Oxford on the Hubble tech and then rushed Hubble with a faith purchased GE (1k faith) ..Culture necessary for the Order policy detour was provided largely by allied cultured CS ... (~T240 this is late for deity - by this point on some maps AIs could already be winning diplomatic or space victory) . Had aluminium from one of my CS allies ...

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Religion provided 3 GS, 1 GE , tons of for CS allies & RAs, growth bonuses and diplomatic bonuses . Couldn't have done it without it ...

 

[peddroelm]

Maya Deity Continents Spaceship Launch turn 277 (again very late)

--------------
Social Policies:

Full tradion, 3 Patronage (Scholasticism), Full Rationalism (eta 1 turn on launch off), 2 Order detour (Science Factories)

Second policy in Order was a waste ...
-------------
Wonders:

Capital and 3-rd mega / city had marble ...Third City also had +12 extra from Hydro Plant ... Eventually all cities built Nuclear Power plants (had lots of CS uranium)

Oracle (chopped 5 forests in second city)
Leaning Tower of Pisa (UA - GE)
Sistine Chapel (third city had top population and production) (goddess of the hunt + river)
Portelain Tower (LToP- GE)
Hubble Space Telescope (faith GE)
had enough faith and then some for second GE (CN tower still available, sydney opera house could've helped finishing rationalism)
narrowly missed a few others (Louvre, )

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c5scienceScience:

1200+ BPT during the peak turns

6 academies

{
Great person cost point

100 UA-GE (LToP)
200 UA-GP (holy site)
300 UA-GS (academy)
400 LToP-GE (PT)
500 UA-GM (customs office)
600 UA-GA (golden age)
700 PT-GS (academy)
800 UA-GG (stole fountain of youth from allied CS)
900 Natural GS1 (academy)
1000 Natural GS2 (academy)
1100 HST-GS1 (bulb)
1200 HST-GS2 (bulb)
1300 Natural GS3 - eta 3 turns at spaceship launch


Faith
1000 GS (academy)
1500 GS (academy)
1000 GE (HST)
2500 GS (bulb)
1500 GE unspent (~2300)

}


Tech path - Luxuries (mostly camps), Education (Universities), Printing Press (GE-LToP-GE), Architecture (GE-PT-academy) , Scientific Theory (Public School), Industrialization (Factory), Electricity (Hydro Plant), Biology (Hospitals), Plastics (Reseach Lab),[Oxford Bulb] Sattelites (GE-Hubble Space Telescope), Nuclear Fision (Nuclear Power Plants), Advanced Ballistics(Parts), Robotics(Spaceship Factories) ..rest

Started signing RAs as soon as I had 4 universities up but did not have many allies (2-3 RAs every time they were available) ... Extra science from RA rationalism policy arrived kind of late because of the lack of cultured CS and Patronage detour ...
----------
c5cultureCulture:

severe lack of Cultured CS (because of Austria )
108% endgame culture modifier in capital
Hermitage with Pantheon Belief helped quite a bit (but I did delay building it a way too much)
After satelites managed to locate and buy off only cultured CS left on the map ...

-----------
c5faithReligion

Pantheon - Goddess of Hunt (+1 from camps (5 camps (5) in city 2&3 (almost as good as the nerfed HG ), 3 camps (3) in city 4)) helped grow my cities fuiously in the early game ...

- had about 5 turns of more than 200 with chance to get religion...No luck - lukily got converted eventualy by Russia
(Hermitage extra culture - very helpful with Austria eating all(most of) the cultured CS, Mosques, 10% growth , +50 per GP expenditure)


Faith expenditures
4 mosques
1000 GS (academy)
1500 GS (academy)
1000 GE (HST)
2500 GS (bulb)
1500 GE unspent (~2300)

--------
c5goldEconomy

no tithe - still my best peacefull economic game by far - rolling in cash

- had 13 camps, ? luxuries
- Having 3 Merchant CS allies + 5 other allied CS meant I could sell all my luxuries and strategics
- did not rush buy any science buildings (more cash available for )
----------
Military (puny)

4 Atlatlist - Machine Guns
1 Spearman (hut) - Lancer
2 Triremes (caravels)
------------
c5citystateAllied CS

8 allied CS for mid-endgame (3 merchant, 2 faith , 2 maritime, 1 cultured)
(realized after the fact - diplo win was possible and even easier(faster to achieve ...) )
------------

=====================
=====================
Again religion played a big part (althought lack of tithe income reduced its overall impact somewhat) ...

- explosion in the begining from my Pantheon (this is probably why I managed to get to LToP & PT in time)
-4 mosques c5culture://)
-the Hermitage perk was suprisingly effective with no Culture CS on the map
-2 GS for med game academies - particually important for mayans who have trouble generating GS ... (did not focus on it - had Tower of Pisa and a garden on the third city)
-1 GS & 2GE (critical engame wonders) for the end game ...

I'll try the Byzantines next - early Piety rush seems mandatory ..

 

[Grendeldef]

Surely one can win without a religion but one problem in it's current form is the imbalance based on maps. On pangaea it doesn't matter that much since religions spread quite fast but on continents for example it's another story.
On 3-5 or even 4-4 start (std 8 civs) you'll might end up with a continent without a religion quite easily and missing all the perks for ~150 turns can add to a huge disadvantage.
I don't see the point of limiting the number of religions - the latter ones are built on scraps anyway and will most likely be overrun by others later; continental divide or not. I'd like to see a change for unlimited number of religions or at least one guarenteed for every larger landmass if there's an original capital city. On the other hand shrines could be built from the start without teching pottery so that a pantheon can be set up soon enough if needed.

G

 

[Slvynn]

If you play Byzantium on Deity you pretty much need to learn to ICS with shrine spammage (Religion granted), or hope also for luck (1-2nd Religion Granted).
You : Chop Settlers with forests at startloc, and shrines in next cities, Go Desert Folk if untaken on Desert, Go stone circles if around alots of stone, or go Dance of Aurora if Tundra Nearby.

Trick with Liberty GE which builds Hagia is nice, but you need to be sure you got Mesengers of Gods pantheon to keep with tech pace, could road cities, and have required tech well timed with GE pop.

 

[Cajamarca]

If you take every city and wipe the founder of a religion off the map, can you convert to the religion and get the founder beliefs or do they die with the founder? Because from a historical perspective, the first thing invaders tend to do is convert to the dominant religion to smooth things over.

 

[snarzberry]

I've been playing deity science games for the last week and I've been winning consistently with or without religion. Religion speeds things up for me by about 20 - 30 turns, the game long benefits are sometimes good and sometimes not that flash depending on what's available. I've noticed that the AI doesn't like Tithes, which I end up taking most games. Being able to accumulate faith in order to grab 2 or more GS at the end of the game is a big boost that you get from religion/science games.

I've been winning at about turn 230 - 240 with a good religion start, and if I have a bad religion start (which means I don't even bother trying) I've been launching around 250 - 260.

Staying completly peaceful with 1,2,3 or 4 cities has seemed very easy, as has maintaining 4 - 6 DoF partners. I've only been invaded 3 times in about 10 games and each time it wasn't a storm of units and managable to hold off with only a few units.

So far I've observed the AI looking like they were going to acheive a VC around the 260 - 270 mark on average, I'd be interested to know from others what time they've seen the AI actually win the game on deity so we build up a better idea on the general time frame to acheive victory. So far it doesn't seem too different from vanilla, but I haven't played enough games to be sure.

 

[MadDjinn]

So far I've observed the AI looking like they were going to acheive a VC around the 260 - 270 mark on average, I'd be interested to know from others what time they've seen the AI actually win the game on deity so we build up a better idea on the general time frame to acheive victory. So far it doesn't seem too different from vanilla, but I haven't played enough games to be sure.

having the AI 'win time' exist before turn 300 (not runaway of course) is definitely different than vanilla.

the earliest I've seen the Apollo Project finished is ~turn 211. but that just means that they got to Rocketry early. I've noticed that the AI will go there first, then try to fill in the rest of the tech tree.

So you can slow them down by cutting them off from RAs (diplomatically if you can get others to not be their friends) and catch up a bit.

Actually, a bpt line before using GSs to bulb would be good for people to know. I settled 6 GSs in a 4 city empire (all Rationalism) then went for the mass bulb in the late game and ended up having 6 ish GSs for bulbing -- way too many (given I had ~900 bpt at that point and the broken RAs landed). Ofc, I didn't have more than universities in 3 cities but did get some Observatories up (capital and one other city had a research lab). due to the last RA and the 6 GSs, I overshot the last two parts techs and was staring at Future Tech for the two techs from the Rat. finisher.

the above was with Babylon ofc, so more GSs than normal.

 

[snarzberry]

having the AI 'win time' exist before turn 300 (not runaway of course) is definitely different than vanilla.

the earliest I've seen the Apollo Project finished is ~turn 211. but that just means that they got to Rocketry early. I've noticed that the AI will go there first, then try to fill in the rest of the tech tree.

Yeah, I've seen Apollo going that early as well, but I've only seen the AI launch one time so far and that was on turn 270 ish. I still don't know if the AI will often take 300 turns or more to win in GK.

Actually, a bpt line before using GSs to bulb would be good for people to know. I settled 6 GSs in a 4 city empire (all Rationalism) then went for the mass bulb in the late game and ended up having 6 ish GSs for bulbing -- way too many (given I had ~900 bpt at that point and the broken RAs landed). Ofc, I didn't have more than universities in 3 cities but did get some Observatories up (capital and one other city had a research lab). due to the last RA and the 6 GSs, I overshot the last two parts techs and was staring at Future Tech for the two techs from the Rat. finisher.

the above was with Babylon ofc, so more GSs than normal.

This is something I've been thinking about a lot but we'll not know the answer to that question until it's determined if RAs are working properly or not. Did you check that game to see how much science you got from your late game RAs? that could be part of the reason you overshot so much.

 

[MadDjinn]

Yeah, I've seen Apollo going that early as well, but I've only seen the AI launch one time so far and that was on turn 270 ish. I still don't know if the AI will often take 300 turns or more to win in GK.

This is something I've been thinking about a lot but we'll not know the answer to that question until it's determined if RAs are working properly or not. Did you check that game to see how much science you got from your late game RAs? that could be part of the reason you overshot so much.

I have seen the AI win by Diplo in the 260-270ish range but that's easier to do.

yeah, I think I had the same issue wrt the RA overcharge. Also had the PT/SP combo, so hmm.

I think I had 'normal' RA beakers when having just the PT, but I'd have to recalculate it again.

(and we're now OT).

 

[SlithyTove]

My last 4 deity losses were all in the 270s.

Apollo goes WAY earlier than that.

 

[The Pilgrim]

The earliest I've seen Apollo built was 209 and parts are out every ten turns give or take. I think, 270 would be a good estimation.