RFCEurope: Latest Beta 4

[ezzlar]

On the smokehouse thing, this is how it will be in the next version:

Cost: 80
25% food storage after growth
Requires Granary and Vaulted Arches
+1 with access to: Pig, Cow, Fish

So the Guildhouse should have the . I also will add a to the market if necessarry.

Doesnt that make fish count twice? You also get health bonus from lighthouse for fish? I dont think market should give health penalty, I was rather thinking bonus because of all the goods/food you can buy.

I never build inn or guild hall. Good thing if removed and changed.

War weariness isnt really an issue in this mod. Yesterday I played as the Venetians with Merchant republic and was at war with Germany for about 300 years which caused one captured city to have 1 because of the war. So buildings and wonders that help with W.W are kinda useless.

Generally I would say the health balance in the mod is good. Happiness is too easy. There are so many buildings, wonders, resources and of course divine monarchy that gives happiness. A cut back should be in place. Divine monarchy bonus should be removed totally.

Some civilipedia changes:
- Change the text of the Knight of St Johns that they require Knights hospitallier
- Same thing with infirmary. It requires Knights hospitallier
- Seljuks and Keshiks. State the spawn dates and area so new players dont have to waste a game to discover what unprepared means.

 

[Leoreth]

Proposal for Smokehouse:

Why not give it one unhealthiness and let it give +1 health from pigs and cow? Most empires usually have one of it, so they can build it for the food storage without penalty, and those that have both get rewarded with +1 health total, which isn't too much either. Fish should stay with a maritime building (usually only coastal towns could afford to eat fish regularly, and giving fish two building bonuses would be OP anyway).

 

[merijn_v1]

Doesnt that make fish count twice? You also get health bonus from lighthouse for fish? I dont think market should give health penalty, I was rather thinking bonus because of all the goods/food you can buy.

I never build inn or guild hall. Good thing if removed and changed.

War weariness isnt really an issue in this mod. Yesterday I played as the Venetians with Merchant republic and was at war with Germany for about 300 years which caused one captured city to have 1 because of the war. So buildings and wonders that help with W.W are kinda useless.

Generally I would say the health balance in the mod is good. Happiness is too easy. There are so many buildings, wonders, resources and of course divine monarchy that gives happiness. A cut back should be in place. Divine monarchy bonus should be removed totally.

Some civilipedia changes:
- Change the text of the Knight of St Johns that they require Knights hospitallier
- Same thing with infirmary. It requires Knights hospitallier
- Seljuks and Keshiks. State the spawn dates and area so new players dont have to waste a game to discover what unprepared means.

Good thing of fish. I'll remove it.

I'll ad the info in the civilopedia.

On the strange character thing:
Right now, the "code" vor é is: é. I also checked if I replace that with just " é ". In the civilopedia it works fine, but in the game we have the same problem. I think when the code sees " é ", it will use the russian character.

 

[sedna17]

War weariness isnt really an issue in this mod. Yesterday I played as the Venetians with Merchant republic and was at war with Germany for about 300 years which caused one captured city to have 1 because of the war. So buildings and wonders that help with W.W are kinda useless.

Generally I would say the health balance in the mod is good. Happiness is too easy. There are so many buildings, wonders, resources and of course divine monarchy that gives happiness. A cut back should be in place. Divine monarchy bonus should be removed totally.

I agree happiness is easy. You're right that I've never noticed any problems with war weariness. Probably this is a problem with how the "ages" are defined... We hare more luxury resources than base civ. Religion happiness might be a bit less (assuming you stick to one religion).

AbsintheRed -- obviously we have slightly different views on what the appropriate size/health of cities should be.

 

[Mardouro]

My opinions about health are mainly what is currently implemented. Large cities in the middle ages should be unhealthy. There are already so many resources on the map that (as a human) it's pretty simple to trade for lots of health/happy resources and grow your cities huge, leaving no practical room for the expansion in city size that should occur during the 1600-1700s. I strongly oppose reinstating apples or adding citrus, or any other resources. Adding some (small) health to the smokehouse is less bad, but seems unnecessary to me.

P.S. Potatoes are from the new world. They spawn on the map in a time-appropriate fashion.

I was wondering, could it be possible to add citrus and apples just for the visual delight?
I mean, having those resources on the map, which with a plantation would give +1 or +2 food, but no direct health bonus from them. Making them just a terrain feature.
I’m just thinking the whole game would be richer the more diversity it had.

 

[papa1]

Hey, papa1!
What exactly do you want to be changed on the kievian settler maps?
I already changed Kiyev to Kyiv, Bielgorod to Bilgorod, Ovrutch to Ovruch based on this everywhere it was spelled differently and fixed a few other things, but overally the cities seems fine to me

The answer to your question:
"Has looked the changed cities for the Moscow state. All is good, though and there are small errors. Now it is necessary to change names and for cities of the Kiev state. Why? Yes because these cities identical, as well as for the Moscow state and should be called equally!"
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=295451&page=42
And then:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=295451&page=43

 

[3Miro]

I have been playing France and trying the first UHV. It is definitely doable and challenging. It helps that I nerfed the barbarians a bit (otherwise getting 2-3 axeman every 4-6 turns really made it impossible to move). I also changed the Manor House. I made it so that it gives +2 Gold and +1 Stability. This actually makes it into a useful building early on (it also becomes obsolete with Divine Right). My ides is that early Manors helped organize tax collection, however, -10% maintenance is really useless in the beginning. Also, Manors should become useless once the structure of the nobility changes (also the +2 would be too much if it were left to go until Constitution).

I also want to make two things:
- make the Manor house require Manorism. Otherwise the Civic is kind of useless.
- make the French UB some sort of a Manor House to represent Charlemagne's economy reforms (Capitulary De Villis). We can go with one of: +25% (maybe less) Unit production or +4 Gold or +2 Stability. To avoid it being OP, we can make it obsolete with Code of Laws. This will help with the first UVH (we can bring back some barbs if we have to).

I also want to switch France and Burgundy's second UHV. The second the third French UHV are currently somewhat identical, just tech and build, lets give it another twist. Besides, Balduin I in 1096 was from northern France not Burgundy. I also want to make Burgundy the cultural builders, not the warriors (war with France will be inevitable, but keep it just to that).

What do you guys think?

 

[3Miro]

Here is a more exotic idea. We can make a building give free units when it is build. For example, we can make it so that for every French Manor house, France gets a free Swordsman. This is once per city, but it will be very useful in the beginning of the game. It will be fairly easy to code (even for the AI, the whole thing can be done with 3 lines of Python and 2 lines of XML).

 

[merijn_v1]

I'm not quite sure about the free swordsman for the French UB. I don't have a good feeling about this. But it's just a feeling.

I like the "new" French UB as a Manor House. But then I think the Burgundian UB should be realy different. I don't like it that 2 civs in France have an UB of the same building. (just brainstorming: Brewery with more happiness, +2 instead of +1and + 1 with barley and wine, and a little culture bonus.)

 

[AbsintheRed]

I agree happiness is easy. You're right that I've never noticed any problems with war weariness. Probably this is a problem with how the "ages" are defined... We hare more luxury resources than base civ. Religion happiness might be a bit less (assuming you stick to one religion).

AbsintheRed -- obviously we have slightly different views on what the appropriate size/health of cities should be.

Not on the health of them, just on the size
Health should definitely remain the main cap for city growth
Btw, having slightly bigger cities means it would be also harder to keep them happy

Especially the citruses would be great for gameplay (if we put a few in the Levant and North-Africa), but let's move on
If the majority thinks it's a bad idea, I won't push it anymore
(I can always mod it into my games if I really want to)

EDIT:

I was wondering, could it be possible to add citrus and apples just for the visual delight?
I mean, having those resources on the map, which with a plantation would give +1 or +2 food, but no direct health bonus from them. Making them just a terrain feature.
I’m just thinking the whole game would be richer the more diversity it had.

Not sure it's possible, but something like this could work too
On the other hand it would be strange that those two resources don't give any bonuses, while all the others do

 

[AbsintheRed]

I have been playing France and trying the first UHV. It is definitely doable and challenging. It helps that I nerfed the barbarians a bit (otherwise getting 2-3 axeman every 4-6 turns really made it impossible to move). I also changed the Manor House. I made it so that it gives +2 Gold and +1 Stability. This actually makes it into a useful building early on (it also becomes obsolete with Divine Right). My ides is that early Manors helped organize tax collection, however, -10% maintenance is really useless in the beginning. Also, Manors should become useless once the structure of the nobility changes (also the +2 would be too much if it were left to go until Constitution).

I also want to make two things:
- make the Manor house require Manorism. Otherwise the Civic is kind of useless.
- make the French UB some sort of a Manor House to represent Charlemagne's economy reforms (Capitulary De Villis). We can go with one of: +25% (maybe less) Unit production or +4 Gold or +2 Stability. To avoid it being OP, we can make it obsolete with Code of Laws. This will help with the first UVH (we can bring back some barbs if we have to).

Yeah the first UHV is great as it is
I agree that a manor house UB is great for France, but then we have to change the burgundian UB, like merijn said
About the bonus: +4 gold is definitely overpowered, so is +25% unit production
The +2 stability seems fine

Also, don't make manor houses require manoralism. And divine right is too early for them to obsolete.
A much better solution is if the civic gives the +2 gold for manor houses
It's better both in making the civic useable, and making the +2 gold less powerful later in the game

I agree with merijn on the free swordsman too.
We shouldn't go in that direction, it basically means the french UB's cost is reduced by the cost of a swordsman...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Hey 3Miro, one more thing
I was checking the latest changes on the svn, and noticed you modified some of the early cavalry

I thought you liked the suggestions from a few days ago about them
The way it is now horse archers are still coming way too late in the game to be useable
Also, it's not logical that lancers and armored lancers are in the game much earlier than mounted sergeants and horse archers

 

[3Miro]

Hey 3Miro, one more thing
I was checking the latest changes on the svn, and noticed you modified some of the early cavalry

I thought you liked the suggestions from a few days ago about them
The way it is now horse archers are still coming way too late in the game to be useable
Also, it's not logical that lancers and armored lancers are in the game much earlier than mounted sergeants and horse archers

Yes, it is on my ToDo list.

- Make Horse Archers require just Stirrup and horses and they can only be build by Bulgaria, Hungary and Kiev.
- Make Mounted Sergeant require just Stirrup and horses and they can be build by everybody west of Hungary.

What do you think about upgrades. Should HA upgrade to Heavy Lancers. What about mounted Sergeants, what should they upgrade to?

 

[3Miro]

Yeah the first UHV is great as it is
I agree that a manor house UB is great for France, but then we have to change the burgundian UB, like merijn said
About the bonus: +4 gold is definitely overpowered, so is +25% unit production
The +2 stability seems fine

Also, don't make manor houses require manoralism. And divine right is too early for them to obsolete.
A much better solution is if the civic gives the +2 gold for manor houses
It's better both in making the civic useable, and making the +2 gold less powerful later in the game

I agree with merijn on the free swordsman too.
We shouldn't go in that direction, it basically means the french UB's cost is reduced by the cost of a swordsman...

I can probably tie the Manor House bonus to the Civic, but it will be a lot of code.

We can make the French Manor house give +2 from Wheat.

Burgundian UB should change.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yes, it is on my ToDo list.

- Make Horse Archers require just Stirrup and horses and they can only be build by Bulgaria, Hungary and Kiev.
- Make Mounted Sergeant require just Stirrup and horses and they can be build by everybody west of Hungary.

What do you think about upgrades. Should HA upgrade to Heavy Lancers. What about mounted Sergeants, what should they upgrade to?

Hm, so you want both Horse Archers/Mounted Sergeant and Lancers to come with Stirrup?
Actually I meant to move Lancers back to Farriers, and Armored Lancers to Blast Furnace
Horse Archer/Mounted Sergeant requires only horse
Lancer/Armored Lander requires horse and iron

The Konnik could be the same (maybe reduce to 6 strength) and come with Stirrup, just make it a HA replacement instead of Lancer replacement

I'm not really sure about the upgrades
HA and MS are light cavalry, the Lancers are heavy cavalry
Actually the best would be if there were another light cavalry type before Pistoliers
They could come with Civil Service for example

 

[AbsintheRed]

I can probably tie the Manor House bonus to the Civic, but it will be a lot of code.

Hm, I don't want to add extra work for you
But if it's possible and relatively easy, then go for it
I do think it would be better tied to the civic

We can make the French Manor house give +2 from Wheat.

The french will have wheat of course, so I don't see the point of linking it to a resource
Btw, isn't +2 hammers too much bonus for an early UB?

 

[AbsintheRed]

The answer to your question:
"Has looked the changed cities for the Moscow state. All is good, though and there are small errors. Now it is necessary to change names and for cities of the Kiev state. Why? Yes because these cities identical, as well as for the Moscow state and should be called equally!"
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=295451&page=42
And then:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=295451&page=43

Hmm
I checked the map you made. I'm sure all those city spots are perfectly accurate, but what will be with all the other tiles between them?
I don't have the background info to add everything perfectly
Why don't you check it yourself?

Here is the city map for Kiev
Open with notepad++, when you are done with your changes, reupload here
I will check it and merge it in for you (I'm updating the map for Hungary in the meantime)

 

[3Miro]

Hm, so you want both Horse Archers/Mounted Sergeant and Lancers to come with Stirrup?
Actually I meant to move Lancers back to Farriers, and Armored Lancers to Blast Furnace
Horse Archer/Mounted Sergeant requires only horse
Lancer/Armored Lander requires horse and iron

The Konnik could be the same (maybe reduce to 6 strength) and come with Stirrup, just make it a HA replacement instead of Lancer replacement

I'm not really sure about the upgrades
HA and MS are light cavalry, the Lancers are heavy cavalry
Actually the best would be if there were another light cavalry type before Pistoliers
They could come with Civil Service for example

Stirrup is precisely the technology that allows for a person on a horse to use something other than a bow. It gives the rider stability so he can swing a lance or a hammer (Charles Martel). Horse Archers would require only horse, Lancers would require Horse and Iron. We will have only two units available per nation, a resource cheap and a resource more expensive one. But I see your point with the early Armored Lancers being OP.

- HA and MS come with Stirrup.
- Lancers comes with Ferriers, Heavy Lancer comes with Blast Furnace.
- Konnik is a Lancer that comes with Stirrup (a bit early, but has some penalties for attacking cities).
- Huszar is a Lancer that requires only Horse (not Iron).
- Knights would require Blast Furnace in addition to Cavalry.
- Ghazi would be like now, except it would replace the Lancer (maybe move strength to 8).
- We can give the MS bonus vs Axeman, making them good for chasing barbs in western Europe.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I would make the Huszar an Armored Lancer replacement
Lancers are way to early for Huszars. They first appeared in the 14-15th century
Actually armored lancers (even with blast furnace) may be still a little early, but we don't have any better options.
Although Hungary had some kind of relatively light cavalry even before that, so it's really the best we can do here...

Of course Huszars were relatively light compared to other mounted units in that era, so it should be a light cavalry (so no iron) with high withdrawal rate
The art for both Konniks and Huszars are fine btw

EDIT: I like the idea of bonus vs Axeman for MS, but then we should give something similar to HA too

 

[PatCat90]

Hi, been playing norse recently, I did the two first goals which worked perfectly. But the last one "raze 10 cities, independents dont count" didn't work. I razed around 15 cities, not independents ofc. Don't know if I only I had this problem, or if anyone else tested Norse after new beta, just mentioning it though.

I want to thank you guys for the great work you have done as well. Especially in changing the different UHV's. Especially the Polish one.