Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[pinktilapia]

Loooong list of changes. Just a few days after the release of (uh, checking) 1.24! You sure don't sleep much Blitz.

I like much of what I read though. Batavia: good. Cantabri, not too good since we have no tribe names there, but historical (mostly) Roman cities.

For the sake of clarity in the discussion about the tribus: AFAIK

1) Max gpt per improvement is 100!
2) Obsolete improvement still cost gpt! (and thus we better avoid giving a gpt to any improvement that expire, such as the greek allies one)

Since the gpt for the tribys is so low, I figured the player could bear it until the end. No big deal isnt'it?

The Domus Aurea must be scrapped by the player ASAP It is historical to do so. But for the sake of our vicious Blitz friend, I will keep it throughout my game

Mauretania in 275BC. It was more or less under control of some numidian kingdoms then. In locked alliance, it would be ok, but then we have no slot free to do so... I have to see but if a free Mauretania reduce Numidia power, I would say no. It is small enough already!

For the harbour, I like the new settings. if you have a fleet, you can "blockade" (read bombard) a port and easily "close" (destroy) the harbour. The player can every turn at little cost try to reopen the port. Coastal cities were hard to take in the antiquity.

Last, ok for reducing all these def. bonus for these improvmenets (Dacia, Armenia). Just for the Bovianum one, in the SG, it fell so easily... That city is supposed to hold (for game purpose, not so much for historical reasons - Hrafnkell, if still around, you certainly mention it until Sulla. Give them a chance; I don't want to see an early Roman conquest of it. It should not be an option.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Great feedback, Pink, thanks! That's right, you can't disband anything although no one will be checking what you do over your shoulder

Well if you are ok with the city location, I can easily find a city name for the area near the Cantabri, such as Flaviobriga. I am ambivalent about wether we should call the city Batavi, like the other tribes, or Noviomagus like the other cities on the Rhine- what's yours (and everyone else's) opinion on that?

I think Mauretania and Socii Italici in the 275BC game is OUT, sine they both would only have 1 city and that's just too small to justify... but since they have more in 100BC it works very well

The player can destroy the Greek Allies improvement, just like the Celtic one, so wouldn't that be ok? Or should we ammend both so they spawn much less but don't cost?

Well, let's try NOT changing the DEF bonus on any of the castra and see if the reduced amount of Tribus/Praesidium Magna make a difference?

PS- I know I am a patch-crazy fool! ++=>

 

[primordial stew]

The player can destroy the Greek Allies improvement, just like the Celtic one, so wouldn't that be ok? Or should we ammend both so they spawn much less but don't cost?

Can they be made weaker, maybe 5-4, but no support? Even 6-4 in those times isn't valuable, but yet they cost support, and support is very expense now. It seems wierd that it takes so long to get a minimal garrison together in the conqered territories, so these guys would probobly pull that duty. Not fit for the front line, but good garrison troops.

The free miles socius should probobly end 1 research earlier. I'm almost to the point of disbanding them as they aren't worth supporting, and there is no way I can afford upgrading them all to marius when the day comes.

1.24 easy:
up to about 160BC now. The conquest of Maceondia is underway.

Hasbrodul was killed by the Germanics during thier war with Carthage! Somehow he missed participating in the 2nd Punic War. Must have been off wandering.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Stew, great idea, i didn't want them to cost support, but thought I'd received resistance, but that makes it quite unique and useful- so be it!

Why can't the player just disband the extra units, since some might need more? Or should I have it spawn more but expire earlier? My reasoning was that some would be fighting Hannibal longer...

FYI- I won't be releasing the patch for some time, and then we can add ideas to it and everyone won't hate me because i release too many patches... kosher?

 

[the_Monarch]

Ok, pink, pretty much sense again. But then again a 100gpt is nothing so the tribute is onlyfor flavor. Maibe there should be ten consecutive tributes, all requiring the previous one to be built. Then, after you build the last one you could scrap the 9 others and keep a minimum 100 gpt long term tribute until Justinian when you could scrap it for good. This might be a bit harder to introduce and they should cost some 20 shields ech to complete so as to make sure Constantinopolis completes them in 1 (ONE!!) turn. Just a (devious thought). You definetelly should write in the civilopedia these should be scraped ASAP.

For the ports, it is nicer to be able to blocade the port and thus decrease the def bonus inside if you attack a city with naval support
does add some historical flavor so I guess 10 shields per port is ok ... Right?

I think for the Hoplite Allies, in the spirit of the Celts they should have some maintentance but no more than 3 gpt. Early republic doesn't have so much funds. To stimulate the Miles Socii to be fed as cannon fodder to big H they must require support. Otherwise I know a player (me) who'd try desperatelly to save any of these units. As for the Hoplites Alarii, they should be draftable, free support since they upgrade to Miles Auxiliares and are crapy anyway. Their spawning rate should be greatly reduced though to 1/12. They should as P.S. said be mostly used as defensive auxiliaries.

 

[pinktilapia]

I concur, I DO! Less spawning rate, free spawning improvement (so that the player don't have to hunt them after they expire - clean), no support unit, but make it a defensive unit for the greek cities freshly conquered by Rome. Draft sounds good, but it don't see how it could be made compatible with the miles socius. I am not the one who will have to create 10 tribus in a row, but as a... ahum.... player, I think this is a bit too heavy

Poor Carthaginian leaders... always dying alone lost in a dark forest. The AI is hopeless.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Sorry Monarch, I so DON'T want to make 10 more improvements maybe 1 or 2 more, though... so 3 x -100, sounds good ?

It's funny that programmers are so lazy period that RTW and Civ4 do not improve the same limitations even with Civ3's example... they just think: wow that made money, I'll take those features! The add-on for Civ4 has a few cool features, hardly worth an add-on though, more like it should have been in the first one, like berserks (HOW COULD THEY BE LEFT OUT?! and Vassal states <-- cool idea we could use in our game, oh well). I don't even have to play it and I bet I'm spot on that the AI hardly EVER becomes a vassal state because it is so unfavorable, just like our lovely AI in this game.

PS- Pink, you purposely made Allied Celts require Gallic Goods instead of "Celts" right? I ask because there really aren't a lot of cities that have Gallic Goods in their radius and the unit themselves require Celts and I remember the old civilopedia said the building required Celts... would it be terrible to make it so like Greek Goods, they require Celts which are everywhere Celtic? What should the spawn be for Greeks/Celts? every 12 turns since they're free? What do you guys think is a good expiration of Hoplites? I have Triumvirate, but thinking Age of Augustus so they don't expire before the player is even done conquering Greece, but shouldn't they be quick around Marian Reforms? I know they didn't COMPLETELY disappear, but they weren't really used much, hardly at all. Also, when should it start? I'm thinking Macedonian Wars or possibly sooner like the Cisalpine/Illyrian Wars?

 

[the_Monarch]

Ok, 10 might be overdoing it . It was however ment to be for just a few turns. As you probably know by now I get many ideas "on spot". Most of them aren't worth implememnting but it has happened that some people liked those that I was too quick to disband . On very rare occasions, of course .

But speaking of tributes that require each other and keep growing, what would stop the player from razing the first tribute right after building the second one and so on... So here's a new brainstorm of about 2 seconds but actually this might be better and more realistic: the tribute doesn't require maintenance at all... But it requires a huge lump of cash to hurry. Why hurry? because it expires with the next tech. Walls of Constantinople and the threat of Attila kicking @ss however endure a bit longer. So if you want to be able to start the walls BEFORE the tribute expires you'd willingly hurry the tribute improvement before 12-25 turns run out. It even varies in value according to as much as you allow the tech to linger. So is that better for a realistic tribute? Now there's the minor problem of calculating Constantinoples production/turn by then and deciding how much more would be the actual sum the player should spend give or take a few turns for research.... So how about 700 to 1000 shields ? This would give the opportunity of at least 400 of them to be hurried but I don't really know what that would cost (it's higher than 4*400=1600, right? because if it isn't it should cost waaaay more, something like 20k would seem more appropriate because I'm sure the player would have at least 30k stashed for darker days)... Anyway we'd just have to decide on that too.


Macedonian wars is great for a start, Blitz. Besides, you wouldn't have access to Greek goods prior to that anyway.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

No way! They're seriously ALL worth implementing... I'm just picky and lazy and Pink is just plain busy!

I like the idea about hurried Tribute, but I have a noobish question (I know, I know, suprising! ) when you say 700, do you men 70 building-wise in the Editor since buildings seem to cost (x * 10) with their values less than units...?

What do you guys think of these updates, I have them on the main list:
UPDATED UPDATE
-move Boudicca to more historical location
-Hoplitae Alarius/Castra Hoplitarum cost changed to 2, maintenance 0, spawn rate to 12, buildable with Macedonian Wars, expiration with Age of Augustus, cost reduced to 45 so it can't upgrade so cheap, remove build fort/detect invisible/airlift to make more like Celticus
-Celticus Alarius/Castra Celtica maintenance changed to 0, spawn rate 12
-Celts now req. resource instead of Gallic Goods for Castra Celticus
-added more Celts resources to make all of Gaul recruitable
-added more Foederatii to make all of seizable Germania/Dacia (Except Naissus) recruitable and replaced some in Dacia so they don't build Cimbri/Teutons
-Hoplite Alarius changed back to upgrade with Miles Auxiliarius and NO SUPPORT, but 5A/4D
-added Mauretania civ in 100BC scenario so Rome can inherit, but not start with that area; Rome owns the rest of Numidia
-removed Celts from Carthago Nova city radius

Also, is Carthago Nova REALLY suppose to have Celts? Does that make sense historically? Oh well, NOW THERE ISN'T

 

[GlobalOppressor]

I've noticed that in 1.24, there have been Rome: Total Realism Graphics added, and I remember that you guys were looking for more pics to make sprites from Rome. I dont know how that works, but I would gladly take some nice pics of units for you guys, if you want.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Hello, GlobalOppressor, thank you for your offer!

I would love to see any of the graphics from RTW or RTR mod of RTW made for our lovely mod! =o) I have no skills in that, so I cannot tell you much more... I'm sure Gaius would be happy to elaborate his methods, he said he was experimenting with 3dMax software when he made those beautiful and quite useful (if small) Principes and Hastati unit graphics from RTR... We still need the Triarii and the Cohortes graphics, extra Legion-types, extra barbarian horsemen, cataphracts... anything that looks cool Some Illyrian raiders/warriors to replace our woodcutting exotic Eastern-looking Pirates would be nice... The hoplites in RTR look sweet... I could go on and on..

 

[pinktilapia]

Gaia/us has vanished for the time being. Hopefully because he is very busy looting RTW for moe of these great units. GlobalOppressor, if you are serious about helping, you could PM him but I guess you would need that expensive 3dMax software...

Blitz- I would prefer not to see too many regional auxiliaries around. With every celtic city able to build an aux. camp, even with a spawning rate of 1 unit per 12 turns, that would be a lot of them! They are there mostly for the flavour, not to become the main component of the Roman army in the west.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Waaaaah! Player wants free units! I need this kind of feedback though, because as Monarch pointed out about himself, so too my ideas are "out there."
I was merely trying to balance out the tremendous amount of Greek auxilaries due to your placement of Greek Goods Maybe I can decrease the spawn rate so it's more viable? I just think the Gallic Goods thing make the Celtic resource unnecessary and like I said Gallic Goods aren't in too many cities.

Umm, cmon... no Socius! EVERY LEGION had AUX!! so under your plan how can there possibly be enough Celticus to make a true Roman army in the West- huh, huh, huh?

Stew, great idea! Maybe have the Schola free cost but more expensive to build and expire as you said?! When is a good expiration date for research and lack of innovation? To balance the gain of income we could make the Mercatus cost 2! So far there will only be 1 Tribute improvement, but are you saying you like the idea of 3? I really thought everyone would pounce on me, so I was kidding, but I'm always for making the late game more difficult

 

[primordial stew]

Sorry Monarch, I so DON'T want to make 10 more improvements maybe 1 or 2 more, though... so 3 x -100, sounds good ?

The tribute did increase, so having > 1 does go with history. 3 is good enough.

With research cost already maxed out, research is still too cheap in the 1/2 the late techs. Maybe the best way to handle it is to expire 1 of the research buildings. There wasn't a whole lot of innovation during this time anyway, so it seems fitting.

 

[pinktilapia]

Well Commodus comes to mind

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Excellent suggestion, does that mean you support that?

So what do you think about the Celticus... as you did before? I have no problem returning it to as you had it... and the Foederatii too... or more locations and less frequency?

 

[the_Monarch]

I subscribe to NOT giving too many castra celtica. As usual the ballance would be in making the Greek castra spawn a lot fewer units (once every 20 or 25 turns) since they're so many. A SOD of auxiliaries is not so nice IMO. The Celtic ones, beeing fewer, should require maintenance but the Greek ones should require less or none at all.

Other than that, your changes seem fine, Blitz. You still haven't answered my question of how would you make the player keep the early tributes after building the late ones. I think one cannot have more than one building as prerequisite for a wonder so the only way would be to make one tribute prereq for the Walls, one for Hagia Sophia and one for Corpus Juris Civilii or Belisarius Army. This is getting ever too complicated though . But ok, 3 tributes with 300 gpt sounds about fine. You could sell all of them when time comes for the counteroffensive.

But there's one other thing: if they don't expire how would you make sure the player builds them right when the tech is available and not a couple of turns before starting the respective wonder which wouldn't be much historical to start paying Attila in the 6'th century so as to make Belisarius join you I still favor a quick, expiring tribute that would run your coffers dry on spot.

 

[the_Monarch]

To answer you again: it was fine: less locations and more frequency (The initial stats were fine, IMO). Btw the Castrum Foederati spawn Miles Alarius Germanicus, NOT Foederati, right? SO the player actually sees that unit and choses for himself weather to upgrade to the mounted unit or not.

About Commodus, a LOT of things already expire at it so it's best to leave some bad things to other emperors as I'm sure there were plenty .

I have given Pink an alternative for a pirate which I like more. If you don't have it, I'll give it to you too.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Well YES I want the unit! I just hope Pink hasn't already used it for something else without us noticing- it happened with Steph's Roman Equites!

 

[the_Monarch]

Well I suggested to Pink the Equites as it is now. Guilty as charged. Here it is. For some reason he favoured the lumberjack more.

Another thing: how many of you have tried cIV before? Do you like the new combat mode? I think it's awfull! First you have a maximum of 3 hitpoints AFAIK. For some reason the defender (even when the attacker has 2 or 3 first strikes!!) keeps hitting the attacker first. And not just once. If at first you don't succeed you get a second chace at the poor attacker and if you still can't kill him then maibe a third bash before he gets a chance to attack.

If this doesn't make much sense, here's a down too earth example: one full Praetorian attacks one full Spearman. After the initial clash there are 2 out of 3 Praetorians left and one out of 3 Spearmen. Combat continues as the two Praetorians align themselves in front of the remaining Spearman and expect peacefully for him to have the first chance. He stabs the first Preatorian once, misses and has another chance before any retaliation. Luckily he kills him. Then, the second Praetorian (who was rubbing his nose all this time) walks in front of the Spearman who... misses AGAIN. But no worries he gets a second (fourth) chance. I couldn't believe it but I said hey, swat happens so I launch a full second Praetorian at the remaining Spearman (needless to say the Praetorian has 8 attack and they both had city killer I whereas the Spearman has only 4 - 5.5 with modifiers). And the bugger kills all 3 subpraetorians in the second unit.

Now what's more annoying this time is not the random which is tedious as usual but the way combat is resolved in that it doesn't matter if the unit has 1/3 vs 1/3 or 3/3 vs 1/3 because all attackers align themselves in a polite and civilized manner in front of the defender waiting their turn and the defender ALWAYS has the first strike TWICE even in front of archers, for a total of 6 hits if necessary. Now THIS is annoying. I wonder if I got the idea right about what happens here but if I did then the best Roman unit would be the velite because he'd have the first strike (at least theoretically) and would be cheap as 8 or 5 combat doesn't really matter. Further more he'd have the chance to withdraw . Sorry if I'm a bit exagerating here (as usual ) but I'd like somebody to tell me I got it all wrong and combat in cIV is brilliant and very well summed up.

Other than that I love the "new" concept of religion, the various promotins, worker jobs, the many great leaders, resources etc. I hate it that there are so few cities and the wild animals seem a bit childish.

P.S. Blitz, if you want all the other units I recommended that aren't yet in game you should either ask Pink or send me your e-mail.