(Rising Tides) Hybrid-Affinities

[SupremacyKing2]

Also, the Golem and Geliopod seem really incredible. These hybrid uniques seem way OP compared to Battlesuits and CNDRs, which are essentially just marines with a higher attack value. Will going pure affinities going to be gimped at this point or will their uniques be gaining new unique effects to be on par with the new ones?

Unless I missed something, the Golem and the Geliopod come at way different levels. According to the live stream, the Golem is the ultimate unit so it would come way after the battlesuit and CNDR whereas the Geliopod would come at about the same level as the battlesuit. So the Golem should be way more powerful.

Having said that, I am not against the battlesuit and the CNDR getting some love. I do feel like players will mostly skip them and just got for the hybrid equivalents.

 

[gunnergoz]

I'm loving this stuff! Next month can't come soon enough for me!

 

[Black Whole]

Unless I missed something, the Golem and the Geliopod come at way different levels. According to the live stream, the Golem is the ultimate unit so it would come way after the battlesuit and CNDR whereas the Geliopod would come at about the same level as the battlesuit. So the Golem should be way more powerful.

Having said that, I am not against the battlesuit and the CNDR getting some love. I do feel like players will mostly skip them and just got for the hybrid equivalents.

I don't think the problem is the time, when these units become available. It is just that the pure affinity units have nothing special to offer right now. Geliopod is invisible. Golem can block ranged attacks. Aquilon can transport units. Architect can buff/debuff units.

All the "cool" things are with the hybrids now and there is now no reason not use them over CNDRs or Xeno swarms unless they gain other special abilities....

I am really looking forward to BERT but these details are bugging me until I can mod them myself

@Defiant Mars:
I really hope, they just hadn't time to design the other hybrid upgrades and will give them to us in the following patch or so

 

[Kaigen]

Actually, pure Purity would be against using non-sentient robots since they are fanatical about humans being in control. They would be afraid that even a non-sentient AI might evolve and try take control and dominate humans. So they would use dumb machines like a mech with a human driver (Aegis unit for example) but would not want any kind of AI, even non-sentient.

This is what I was going to say. Purity on its own has an emphasis on there always being a human there to push the button. The Aegis marks the extent to which Purity tolerates AI, and even in that case, you still have a human driving the mech, pointing the guns, and pulling the trigger. Purity-Supremacy appears to use autonomous robots, albeit ones which are not anywhere near sentient.

 

[Lord Tirian]

The big divide would be AIs truly capable of thinking for themselves, learning, and potentially acting in ways they were never programmed to.

That line is fuzzy, though. For example, what about Google's self-driving cars? Purity would answer that with a resounding no, at least you'd need to have a human in there all the time. Supremacy would say it's not going far enough, it must become a true sentience to be dynamic and capable of learning.

P/S? Yeah, non-sentient machines that do your stuff sounds like right up their alley, similar to Mass Effect's Virtual Intelligences.

EDIT: Eh, Kaigen got there before me, that's what I get for trying to link things!

 

[Galgus]

I still hold that the AI used in a war machine does not prove that AI would not be used in manufacturing and whatnot.

It's as much a stretch as saying that the Harmonists refuse to use robots because they like genetic engineering.
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@Lord Tirian

Purity may be concerned on the safety issues of a self-driving car, but it's not really what they oppose.

Purity is, to an extent, about how some technologies could backfire dangerously if pushed to far.

Self-driving cars? Minor concern, if any. Thinking AI that could feasibly defy those who built it? Major safety concern.

 

[Black Whole]

This is what I was going to say. Purity on its own has an emphasis on there always being a human there to push the button. The Aegis marks the extent to which Purity tolerates AI, and even in that case, you still have a human driving the mech, pointing the guns, and pulling the trigger. Purity-Supremacy appears to use autonomous robots, albeit ones which are not anywhere near sentient.

The thing is, we are currently using AI and robots to an extent, where we don't know what they are doing. Take for example insurance companies: Some are using algorithms which decide how much you will have to pay. Those Algorithms are so complex, that nobody can actually tell why it chooses exactly this price and not more or less. And AI is able to learn by themself when coded properly, so we are using those things now, which Purity abhors. And I just can't believe, that they give up those things, because all of the sudden only humans should do these things. That's why S/P feels not like something "new".

I hope my writing makes sense

 

[Lord Tirian]

Self-driving cars? Minor concern, if any. Thinking AI that could feasibly defy those who built it? Major safety concern.

Considering the Aegis description:

By design, the AI cannot initiate any but the most basic of movement (typically just walking in and out of the repair gantry) and may not trigger weapons.

...I'd say, a self-driving car with a driver present at all times is absolutely the limit of how far Purity trusts computer-controlled machines. A self-driving car without a driver present is probably too far for Purity already (they might make a case for ones on rails).

 

[Halbbruder]

The Purity Harmony one looks weird, like an alien wearing a golden spandex suit.

It seems Pure Purity is still the most fashionable affinity.

Agreed. It needs more conceptual work. The bronze themed colour just doesn't seem right.

The other designs are brilliant though.

 

[Galgus]

@Black Whole

Color me skeptical on true learning AI currently existing beyond the most basic trial and error mutations.

Deep Memory, an incredibly Purity Wonder, is more advanced than any program in use today.
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@Lord Tirian

So long as the machine can't literally make decisions for itself, it is still under human control: purely operating as its human programmers designed it to.
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@Halbbruder

It's more the spandex-like smoothness that makes me dislike it: doesn't look like proper armor.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

A self-driving car without a driver present is probably too far for Purity already (they might make a case for ones on rails).

I would say that a self-driving car with a driver present would be a good example of the purity-supremacy hybrid, combining AI (supremacy) with a human still present and able to override (purity). Using the car as an example, I would describe the affinity this way:

purity: no self-driving car
purity-supremacy: self-driving car with human present and able to override at any time.
supremacy: completely autonomous self-driving car with no human involved at all.

 

[DefiantMars]

Agreed. It needs more conceptual work. The bronze themed colour just doesn't seem right.

The other designs are brilliant though.

By itself, I can understand the apprehension with the bronze, I was reluctant about Eidolon and Hellion when we first saw them, but now I think they're fine. After seeing the full contingent of Harmony/Purity Units I have to say that I'm actually kind of happy with the overall style.

The big question is, what will the Ultimate unit look like?

 

[Galgus]

Supremacy's big thing is thinking AI that can learn and make its own decisions, not the whole of AI programming.

 

[Red Menace]

And yeah, I'm worried about Battlesuits and CNDRs, too. I could almost accept the Battlesuit as "just stronger" unit given Purity's inherently conservative approach, but the CNDR needs something extra, definitely.

I dont think they would just ignore them, i cant see them adding all kinds of awesome stuff to hybrids while the Pure affinities get nothing, at least its not how i would do it.

Supremacy:ALL HAIL THE DIVINE GLORY OF THE MACHINE.
Purity:
Harmony:

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I dont think they would just ignore them, i cant see them adding all kinds of awesome stuff to hybrids while the Pure affinities get nothing, at least its not how i would do it.

Supremacy:ALL HAIL THE DIVINE GLORY OF THE MACHINE.
Purity:
Harmony:

Sadly knowing Firaxis it's probably unchanged..

 

[Black Whole]

@Galgus:
iCub is a robot which is designed with the method of neuro robotics. It has a so called "ecological ego", that is, it is aware of it/her/himself being not part of the surrounding. Instead of having its physiology programmed (so where his arms are and his legs, etc), iCub is programmed in a way, that it learned it by itself. He does random movements and then watches out for the consequences. This is similar to the learning done by newborns.

 

[VCrakeV]

Supremacy's big thing is thinking AI that can learn and make its own decisions, not the whole of AI programming.

I just can't see this, without some sort of safeguard(s). For example, every supremacy human might have a chip implanted, which, when recognized by a sentient AI, triggers a program that overrides its ability to think for itself, preventing it from opposing the person. Perhaps the chip would make it recognize people as fellow robots. There has to be some sort of safeguard.



On topic, is it just me, or does s/h remind anyone of the aliens from Xcom? Will these idealists also modify their own kind beyond recognition?



Also on topic, since the hybrids have their own views, will they have their own names?

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I don't think the problem is the time, when these units become available. It is just that the pure affinity units have nothing special to offer right now. Geliopod is invisible. Golem can block ranged attacks. Aquilon can transport units. Architect can buff/debuff units.

All the "cool" things are with the hybrids now and there is now no reason not use them over CNDRs or Xeno swarms unless they gain other special abilities....

I get the impression that these hybrid units are meant to supplement your military. In other words, there is nothing preventing a player from building both. For example, if you are playing purity-supremacy, you can build CNDR's and Drone Cages. It is not one or the other. The Drone Cage heals nearby units so it would make a great support unit for the CNDR. Or when you reach the high level stuff, why not build an ANGEL and a Golem? The Golem can protect your ANGEL.

 

[Galgus]

@VCrakeV

Yeah, even Supremacy colonies would probably still have safeguards - but the existence of such AI carries some risk.
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I also thought S/H looked rather alien, though not specifically Xcom.
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@SupremacyKing2

I'd hope that each set of unique units will be exclusive, otherwise pure affinities would be cheapened greatly with the advent of hybrids not being behind in military strength.

 

[Black Whole]

I get the impression that these hybrid units are meant to supplement your military. In other words, there is nothing preventing a player from building both. For example, if you are playing purity-supremacy, you can build CNDR's and Drone Cages. It is not one or the other. The Drone Cage heals nearby units so it would make a great support unit for the CNDR. Or when you reach the high level stuff, why not build an ANGEL and a Golem? The Golem can protect your ANGEL.

Gameplaywise, you are totally right. This could be indeed the way, they are designed. I know this not a roleplaying game, but when I want to play as a pure affinity, I have nothing with those special abilities (besides the Rocktopus). That's what is bugging me
I get the impression that hybrids are favored not only in the military part, but also in the domestic part, since they also get more perks from the affinity system, compared to pure ones.