River-Mountain-Hill trilemma

[mrwho]

Very surprised to see hill/river in front, when to me river/mountain seems a given.

Hill gives you a little more production early on and more defense. A mountain is good defensively as well, though, and the +50% science easily trumps a little early production boost that will soon fade into negligibility IMO.

 

[Talcove]

Flat tile with river and mountain, no question. On flat terrain you can build or buy a windmill, which makes up for the lost hammer from the hill.

While that is true, you also have to wait to get the tech for Windmills before being able to build them. With hills you get the production bonus instantaneously, and a wicked sweet defense bonus too!

 

[Securion]

I'll take the Mountain, then whatever...

 

[cpm4001]

I'd say it depends entirely on the surrounding resources; settle wherever nets you the most resources.

 

[Ekmek]

3. You can settle next to both river and mountain, but on a flat tile with lower production.

did I miss something here? do cities built on hills get more production? I know there defense is higher but production too?

 

[Browd]

The hill provides one extra hammer -- city on hill will produce 2 food and 2 hammers, while city on flat will produce 2 food and 1 hammer. Only real costs are that a city on a hill can't build a windmill and the hill the city is settled on will never get extra hammers from a mine.

 

[ToothedBomb]

Probably river and mountain. I might build a guild in that city, and the garden will help out then.

 

[jlim201]

I prefer mountain, but not huge mountain ranges unless Inca. (not enough tiles to work). River is second, food helps for more science from Observatory. A hill would also be nice.

 

[reddishrecue]

I prefered hill river since you can get that extra hammer. If the hill happens to have a luxury resource such as silver or gold, then even better since you get that default extra +4 happiness.

 

[Anhellia]

Mountain is the best.

I would value hills above river, cause of the defense bonus and Windmill is like one of the worst building in the game (for it's insane gold/hammer cost compared to the little benefits it gives).

I would value sea very highly, possible more than river because of the extra food/gold/production you can get from trade routes.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Wow, lot of variety here! It's a very good question.

I voted in the minority -- hill/mountain -- but mostly I was thinking about my cap. But I think that applies to settlements as well. Windmills take forever to build and you don't get them for awhile, I'd rather have the immediate hammer. And Water Mills are pretty damned lame ... I would say Observatory > Garden/Watermill -- but it's close.

 

[Cromagnus]

I put hill/mountain, but it clearly depends on your goals. Hill/mountain is the easiest to defend, and has good early production. Windmills are basically useless in the grand scheme of things. If you have the hammers to build windmills, you need them for public schools, or unit, or archaeologists.

Think about it: Late-game buildings that add incremental value never pay off. The only good thing about a windmill is the specialist slot.

250 hammers, +2hammers, +10% when building buildings.

Ok, let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're at 50 production when you get economics. +2 hammers is 4%. So we'll call it 15%. By the time you can build Windmills you should be building Workshops, Factories, Public Schools instead, but let's see how it affects things to build a windmill first: A public school is 300 hammers. 6 turns at 50 hammers. Building a windmill first delays that by 5 turns, but adds +14% hammers. 300/57.5 = 5.22 turns. So 6. So, you've delayed public schools by 5 turns. But maybe it evens out after factories? You've saved 1.66 turns... realistically just 1. And after banks and research labs? 3.4 turns total... After stock exchanges you've *almost* broken even. And the game is over. Grats you!

Plus, if you're going for growth, plant your city on the one tile that can't grow food!

So, hills > flatland, period. The only question remaining is river vs mountain? Well, this depends on whether you want a water mill (optional IMHO) and a hydro dam. (nice to have but comes late and *not* essential*)

For me it's more about the surrounding tiles. Which location gives me the best overall tiles to work sooner? (and later)

Other tiles all being equal, I'll take that river/hill over mountain/hill if I don't think I need to defend the city, and I don't think it'll grow into a huge population. (Observatories are AWESOME in *high pop cities*)

But, flatland? Only if it nets me something awesome like a wonder, or I can settle on a lux to immediately solve a happiness problem I would otherwise have.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

I also think it depends when you're dropping it. If it's one of your first two or three cities, often you are going to a library build immediately, AND you don't have a worker there to help the city out - so an extra hammer might cut 4 or 5 turns off of library completion.

 

[Moriarte]

Hill/mountain, normally. Good defense, early production and observatory. Still have access to irrigated farms. I miss out on water mill and garden, but i never (OK, very rarely) build them anyway. I'd rather build another unit/shrine/market/caravan/library/granary/stable instead of a water mill, at that stage.

Also depends on level of difficulty and game plan. Definitely don't need a garden in a domination game. In a peaceful game river/mountain would be very tempting, indeed.

 

[lindsay40k]

I'd only consider prioritising the hill if there was a serious chance of an invading army getting within slapping distance or it had a luxury on it I needed online as a matter of urgency.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Voted Hill/Mountain. As Cromagnus put it, Windmills are a garbage build. Watermills are mediocre buildings. Hydroplants are good but they come rather late. So I'd lean towards Mountains, which can be built long before hydroplants come into play.

Not to mention the other thing, a city off-river means that you have an extra river tile to farm.

One thing is, I'm not totally sold on the value of Gardens. Are they really worth it for the +25% GPP? I don't have a good handle on it. Someone convince me.

 

[Moriarte]

Not to mention the other thing, a city off-river means that you have an extra river tile to farm.

Or it may mean one less mine. Depends how many hills you have in the area. If you have just two hills around, including one you settle on, it's a bit of a gamble.

One thing is, I'm not totally sold on the value of Gardens. Are they really worth it for the +25% GPP? I don't have a good handle on it. Someone convince me.

I'm not sure you get more great people as a result in every situation, but you surely will be getting them faster with garden. Faster academies. Faster writers/artists (for example) transforming into better culture, which in turn transforms into faster secularism or other policies you need ASAP.

Later in the game garden bonus starts to stack with rationalism perk (forgot the name), ideology perk, Sweden friendship, leaning tower, national epic and this is where you can get GP production accelerated big time.

So, i think it is indeed valuable for GP - centered victory types - diplomacy, science, culture ..

 

[TractorBoy]

Cromagnus and Moriarte have said it all, I am amazed the vote for Hill/Mountain is so low. On the subject of a garden, I don't play BNW but in G&K the Hanging Gardens gives you a free garden even when not by a river or lake, I assume it is the same for BNW!

 

[Moriarte]

On the subject of a garden, I don't play BNW but in G&K the Hanging Gardens gives you a free garden even when not by a river or lake, I assume it is the same for BNW!

Indeed it is the same! However, HG is slightly less appealing in BNW due to introduction of caravans (4 food) and cargo ships (8 food). And you don't have to cross fingers while producing one.

Cromagnus and Moriarte have said it all, I am amazed the vote for Hill/Mountain is so low.

To be fair, general result of this poll indicate, among other things, that domination mindset is less popular.

 

[Browd]

Garden and National Epic in your guilds city -- not even debatable in my book, regardless of what victory condition you are pursuing. If you settle your capital on a hill/mountain tile, and not on a river, you should either make sure you get Hanging Gardens (for the free garden) or put your guilds in a secondary river city where you can get both a garden and National Epic.

Gardens are also helpful, of course, for GS generation, but you will be running science specialists in all of your cities, so having some cities without gardens is bearable -- GS generation will be a bit slower, but probably only cost you 1 or 2 GSs before the game ends (or, put another way, if the turn on which your game should end depends on the timing of GS generation and bulbing, your victory turn time will be slightly delayed vs. the time you might have achieved if you had gardens in every city).