Rome Rules the World

[Drag0wn]

I've played DoC on and off for the past two years, most of which was the older version with expansion civics. After discovering the SVN early this spring, I've played some crazy games, centering around the new expansion stability system.

I'm the kind of guy who loves to break a game, and the fact that expansion instability was capped at -25 intrigued me. I first played a Holy Romans into the Prussians game where I ended up holding all of Europe and Muscovy to meet my UHV. Then I decided, why stop? The Prussians don't pay military unit upkeep, so my military can expand forever! I then, from 1960 in an Epic game, conquered the entire planet by 2003, winning my UHV in 1990 from finishing the tech tree, as my pop hadn't climbed up to meet the domination limit. I was barely stable at the end, holding on based on happiness, civic, and economic growth stability. I was solid until the economic growth slowed and I realized I would inevitably go into negative stability.

The only limiting factor in this that I had to worldbuild for was courthouses. With high end game inflation, and over 100 cities, maintenance is unmanageable. I held on for a long time, but after controlling nearly all of the old world my economy was in tatters.

I intended to play that game longer, but a save breaking SVN update hit while I was taking a break from the game (this was March) so when I came back to DoC I had to make a new ridiculous game to play, which I will talk about here. If you guys are interested in the older game as well, I think I have a screenshot or two, and the old, now broken saves, if anybody can use them.

My new game is founded on a different idea. Normally, when you build a massive territorial empire, you want to rush for fascism to get you totalitarianism, building a fascist/communist state (fascist is better, btw). Instead, after crunching all the numbers, I realized the most stable government possible in DoC SVN is Theocracy+Vassalage+Agrarianism+Fanaticism+Warrior Code in the middle ages, with religious uniformity. The economy civic is irrelevant. With max happiness stability, you can reach +35 domestic stability, enough to make the expansion penalty mostly irrelevant. If you want to rule the world, your expansion stability will be -25 no matter what you do, so the minor bonuses totalitarianism and other civics offer to lower expansion penalties are less effective than maximizing stability.

The problems here are obvious. First of all, you have to stay in the middle ages the entire game. Second, if you want to prepare, you have to be a classical or earlier civ, and deal with everybody spawning on you all the time. Lastly, other people will eventually have better units than you. Civs like Prussia will spawn with Rifleman and Cannons, while you'd have musketmen and knights. Not a pretty picture.

So I had to choose what civ to play as. Most are terrible for this. The finalists were Persia, China, Mongolia, and Rome. Persia has a terrible UU for this situation, and while the UP looks good, it won't matter in the long run. China has plenty of time, and a UP that helps prepare for the empire, but a UU that doesn't conquer things. Crossbowman in general have little use. Mongolia has a great UU, good UB, and an ok UP, but spawns too late and with too little for my purposes. It takes a couple hundred years to get Mongolian China in shape to conquer the world, and I wouldn't have that much time before European civs were knocking me down with better units.

No, the answer was Rome. The UP allows for effective economic development of crappy territory, something that would become very necessary in Russia and Asia. The UU, while not in any way better than a Heavy Swordsman, is cheaper, is not outdated by the heavy swordsman (they coexist) while the heavy swordsman's bonus becomes irrelevant in time. Not to mention Roman Roads, which help in a medieval multi-continental empire.

My next posts will be about the game I ended up playing, but feel free to ask questions about anything I did. I'm not sure if anybody has thought to do this before me.

 

[Drag0wn]

My strategy as Rome was pretty simple. I'd sit back and develop while ignoring the expansion portion of my UHV. I'd get my triumphal arch, finish all the medieval tech I needed, and build up a massive army.

As a disclaimer, I did move around resources in my game. I wanted ideal Italian cities to do this, and later on I had to deal with terrible AI city placement as well as resources that spawn later as time passes, like the Italian clam two tiles east of Barcelona. I used worldbuilder to move a few things around, as I kept AI cities.

I intentionally did not colonize any area that would become the core of another civ. I took North Africa in order to get enough cities for my UHV conditions, thinking they would not try to flip to the Moors, as they do not in Phoenician games.

The Moors spawn did call for a flip, which I refused. I moved all my units east, and only lost two legions to them. Spain formed a nice buffer for me, and the Moors had no boats to attack North Africa with. After the 10 or so turns of flipping, I moved back in. I declared war on Spain as soon as I could, and swept down Iberia with my Legion and Catapult armies. My civic setup also helped with one critical army component - promotions. I needed 3 promotions to have an effective army, for the three ranks of city raider. I decided cavalry were worthless, as they could not get city raider and had to be specialized in order to reach a similar power level. Legions/HSwordsmen with city raider 1-3 reach 14 power when attacking a city, 14.8 against gunpowder units. Adding siege units to this, it becomes virtually unstoppable in sneak attacks.

I dealt with every other European spawn in the same fashion. It's funny to watch on the ending slide show. I did conquer the Vikings first, but they were a joke.

Here's a screenie right as the Poles spawned. Notice I have already taken out Spain, the Moors, England, the Vikings, France, and Russia. I have also started Siberian colonization. Mediolanum built 5-6 settlers in preparation for this move.

 

[ales_]

The Prussians don't pay military unit upkeep.

You're wrong. Germany has free unit upgrades, that's it.

 

[Drag0wn]

After I incorporated the Poles, consolidating Europe, I moved an army into eastern Africa, as the Arabs had just collapsed in the face of Seljuk aggression. I took Egypt, Arabia, and Ethiopia (which was Orthodox ). I now had to begin the long process of building religious persecutors. Carthage must have produced about a dozen of them during this time. Luckily, Arabia had failed at spreading Islam, so it wasn't as bad as it would have been in most games. Also, I had researched Divine Right first (rushed for Fanaticism) and had world build removed the Islam holy-city-ness from Rome (you can't persecute a holy city, and I realize why, but it was a serious impediment to my plans).

I also slipped into being not solid for the first time in the game, so the Byzantines spawned after the Seljuk attacks. Greece had been nothing but independent cities that I was not about to touch, knowing this would happen. Ironically, I am the Western Roman Empire, despite owning territories east of Constantinople, Jerusalem and Siberia, not to mention all of Ethiopia.

 

[Drag0wn]

You're wrong. Germany has free unit upgrades, that's it.

They do not pay unit upgrades, yes. But they also don't pay unit upkeep, or at least in all older versions of DoC they don't, and I'm pretty sure they still don't.

In my game, they only paid unit deployment upkeep.

 

[Drag0wn]

From this point on, the game was simply African and Siberian colonization. I kept throwing down new cities, developing as fast as I could. The mixture of my unique power with the hammer bonus of Catholic buildings was outstanding, considering this was a marathon game. I didn't fight any other wars, either. Everyone left me alone while I made an ever bigger army for 300 years, winning a Domination victory. I was very close to the land area requirement for a long time, and an Ethiopian respawn robbed me of a few tiles (yes, tiles, not cities, you'll see). Byzantium collapsed, however, and taking Athens gave me enough land area to win.



That would have been the end, but I still hadn't accomplished my goal.

 

[Drag0wn]

At this point, I moved my capitol to Carthage for a brief moment, while I used the papacy (another reason to be catholic, I had so much pop it was a convenient tool) to declare a crusade against the Ottomans, which dragged in the Congo and the Mali. They both became vassal states to "be safe" from "the Ottoman threat". The Mali were Catholic by the way, a consequence of random chance spreading to their capitol, and me pumping in missionaries after they opened borders. Then I moved my capitol back to Rome.

I finished off the Ottomans (they had lost usefulness to me) and persecuted their lands, spreading the one true faith in its place. I stopped my middle eastern expansion at Babylon, knowing that the Iranian spawn would occur. At this time I moved a massive (over 100 unit) army through Siberia to the east, to take out the Mongols and their Chinese vassals.

I don't have exact numbers for how large my army was at that time, I could check a save, but it was huge. Since nobody had a tech advantage over me yet (and many were still behind) I was an unstoppable juggernaut in Asia, clearing out the Mongols and China, capitulating Tibet. The Khmer collapsed while the Thai spawned, so I took a few independent cities there as well.

 

[Drag0wn]

I then declared war on the Thais and conquered their two cities. The big problem on the horizon was getting enough galleys east to invade Indonesia and Japan. My unit production centers were all on the Mediterranean, and those darn cape tiles on Africa were a problem.

Thankfully, you can found Suez City between Egypt and Jerusalem, allowing ships to pass through that city to the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. I moved my coastal armada east around Arabia and India (I had open borders with the Mughals, despite the fact they hated my guts) and could then invade all of Southeast Asia, and colonize Australia. So far, over the course of this game, I have built 31 settlers, which is a ton considering this is DoC.

I also invaded Iran, not that they posed any real threat.

On an interesting note, I've noticed that whenever I build a massive army in DoC, the tech speed of the game decreases drastically. I believe the other AIs are trying to build their own massive armies at the expense of research in order to be "safe", but that's a game they cannot win. At the dawn of the 17th century, the Mughals, who have all the territory they should have, do not have every medieval tech and have no renaissance techs. This happened in my Prussian game too, as the Americans abandoned all technology after industrialism to try and outproduce me. Brasil did not have industrialism by the 2000s in that game.

On a fun note, I bring you the Fall of Saigon!

 

[Drag0wn]

After I consolidated all of that territory, I was just passing turns improving my infrastructure.

I force my vassals to follow my civics (paying them gold) and they change, wait, and turn back to (mostly) their old civics. This is great, because I get to pay them to slow down their technological advancement to a snail's pace. I do not even want to know how many turns of Anarchy the Mali have been through. Things get crazy in West Africa. Also, following my civics is most stable for them, so I force them into line when one of my stability checks is coming up, usually a declaration of war or a great person birth.

Of course, the Prussian spawn was due in 1699. I took my garrisons out, let the cities flip, and waited 10 turns. I then responded with about a fifth of my overall military strength (over 100 units) crushing them in a 3 turn war. It feels so wrong to see "Your Legion has destroyed a Rifleman" over and over. I only lost a handful of bombards and two legions. They were no match.

Another funny thing to mention is that I control a lot of wonders. Himenji Castle is quite useful for my legions and Hswordsmen. The Spiral Minaret is downright broken with this playstyle.

 

[Drag0wn]

After I took out the Prussians, I moved that invasion force down to Iran, in preparation to invade the Mughals (it had to happen at some point). The funny thing is, they beat me to it.



The war that followed was not entirely to plan. The Mughal's initial move was against Iran (they obviously did not see my army near Babylon), but when I moved the remnants of the Asian Legions out from Hanoi to attack Kolkata, the Mughals over-corrected and committed everything to the eastern front. The Asian Legion was only about 40 units strong, but it was all the Mughals could handle. In an about even fight, we both lost some units and while I took Kolkata, it was taken back the next turn while I took Ahzimabad and holed up in there to keep them busy. It worked.

The over 100 unit stack that came from Prussian conquests joined with some irregulars from the conquest of Iran. To estimate, I'd say it was at least 150 units.
Needness to say, I went straight for Delhi and their two other core cities. They had no response, and collapsed, leaving me with just independents to mop up, and an Indian respawn in the south/southeast.

 

[Shadow Warlord]

I wonder if you'll do anything about the new world? You'll obviously need galleons to get over there, but some of your civics won't obsolete do long as you don't research certain techs.

Domestic Stability, with the current SVN's, is pretty much the dominant stability category that can make or break your game (before that it was the economic one i believe). If your playing a civ with access to amost all happiness resources (like China) then all you need to worry about is the right civic combos.

Will be interesting to see how the rest of this will turn out.

 

[Drag0wn]

I wonder if you'll do anything about the new world? You'll obviously need galleons to get over there, but some of your civics won't obsolete do long as you don't research certain techs.

Domestic Stability, with the current SVN's, is pretty much the dominant stability category that can make or break your game (before that it was the economic one i believe). If your playing a civ with access to amost all happiness resources (like China) then all you need to worry about is the right civic combos.

Will be interesting to see how the rest of this will turn out.

Advancing to the Renaissance means losing 5 points of domestic stability. It's doable, but with another plague could be enough alongside economic recession to sink me. After the last round of plague I got -9 economic stability, which took me down to +4 overall. My vassals give me stability but it cannot always be counted on, especially if they encounter economic hardship.

My current plan is to do nothing about the New World. I'll just sit back on what I have, which is all I can have without advancing. I hope there are no save breaking updates soon. It'd be fun to pass some of these saves onto other people, so they can do fun things like play as America where the entire old world is a backwards empire. Still, I would like to win a conquest victory

In the old DoC, civic stability, trade stability, and building stability were really important and easy sources of stability. Building stability doesn't exist anymore, and trade stability isn't functional? Part of sevopedia talks about it, but it does not appear on the breakdown. In any case, happiness stability is the current easiest and best form of stability.

After conquering the Mughals, I gathered enough territory to win a Catholic victory! I did not know you could "win" multiple times in a single game. The message at the bottom of the screen even changed. I'll keep playing, obviously. This is too good to give up. Some fun graphs:



This graph always makes me laugh



This gives some idea of my economy

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Moderator Action: Thread moved to "Gameplay Guides" section.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Drag0wn]

I did not intend for this to be a guide, more of a "look what can be done", but I guess it can be a guide for how to run a game like an insane person

 

[Fresol]

This is mind blowing.

I thought negative expansion(<-10) stability alone could trigger crises, but that doesn't seem to be the case?

Domination games are awesome, and this one is especially so. Great job there!

 

[Drag0wn]

This is mind blowing.

I thought negative expansion(<-10) stability alone could trigger crises, but that doesn't seem to be the case?

Domination games are awesome, and this one is especially so. Great job there!

Expansion instability does nothing on its own. As I understand it, your overall stability determines whether a crisis of any kind happens, and when a crisis happens, usually picks the category with the most instability. That's why I came to the conclusion that maximizing stability was better than paying any attention to lowering expansion instability, which would top out eventually.

As long as I am solid, nothing bad can happen. I thought spending time only stable could cause single city secessions, but none of those happened over a few hundred years. If I went shaky, then single city secessions should happen, and if I go unstable, then collapses to core. At least, that's what my experience and sevopedia leads me to believe.

Another interesting thing: Sevopedia says expansion instability is capped at -25, but I've only ever seen it go down to -24. Is that multiplier for -25 having periphery pop of over 5 times core? This happened in both the Prussian Global Reich game and this one.

 

[Fresol]

There's a stability guide for 1.12 thread written by Leoreth somewhere in the forums. It's not up to date with the current SVN version but a large part of it remains true.

Basically you encounter overextension stability penalty once your "peripheral population" score(which is a weighted sum of your non-core city populations) exceeds your "core population" score(which is a weighted sum of your core city populations, with era-determined weight and a factor decided by whether you have a single core city or not). You can find the details in the stability.py file.

 

[Drag0wn]

I understand what causes expansion instability, and why. The thing I don't understand is at what point does overextension reach -25?



As you see in that screenshot, my periphery population score is 6.77 times larger than my core population score, but I'm only at a -24 overextension penalty. -25 should be possible, but what does it take to reach? Can it be reached?

Also, because of how many AIs I've taken out, turns go by really smoothly. I guess I've solved that problem.

 

[Vectors]

I understand what causes expansion instability, and why. The thing I don't understand is at what point does overextension reach -25?



As you see in that screenshot, my periphery population score is 6.77 times larger than my core population score, but I'm only at a -24 overextension penalty. -25 should be possible, but what does it take to reach? Can it be reached?

Also, because of how many AIs I've taken out, turns go by really smoothly. I guess I've solved that problem.

Once iPeripheryPopulation / iCorePopulation hits 3 you've maxed it out

As
if iPeripheryExcess > 200: iPeripheryExcess = 200
once you have achieved
200 = 100*iPeripheryPopulation / iCorePopulation - 100
+100 +100

(300)/100 = (100*iPeripheryPopulation / iCorePopulation)/100
3 = iPeripheryPopulation / iCorePopulation

 

[DC123456789]

How did your technology go down?