Ruleset Discussion

[DaveMcW]

Note: Game admins are DaveMcW and classical_hero.


The Ruleset

1 Out of Game Actions

1.1 -- Team Espionage
Using external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams is forbidden.
Example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

1.2 -- Screenshot Trading
Screenshots taken in-game of a city, minimap, or anything else may only be given, traded, or exchanged to other teams once one of the pair knows paper.

1.3 -- Save Manipulation
Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Any actions that would allow you to edit or view the save file of another team is not allowed.

1.4
Teams may not contact each other until they have met in-game. Meta-game conversations in the UN are exempted (such as votes on rule-set amendments )

1.5
Teams are not allowed to play ahead on a downloaded version of the current save (that includes any and all actions).


2 In Game Actions

2.1 -- Suicide Training
Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is forbidden.

2.2 -- Reloads
In the event the game is reloaded to a previous point in time for any reason, each team must faithfully recreate any in-game actions they took after that point, to the best of their ability. Teams are encouraged to keep an explicit log of actions taken to facilitate the best recreation possible.

2.3 -- Anti-Espionage Teching
You must wait 20 hours (or the average length of a turn, whichever is faster) between major changes to your research rate, or changing your current tech. If an admin determines that you are deliberately hiding your research from teams with espionage on you, they may reveal your research progress and income to those teams.


3 In Game Gifts

3.1 -- Military Unit Gifting
Gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed is prohibited.
Great People are excepted from this rule, and may be gifted at any time.

3.2 -- Naval Unit Gifting
A team may never gift units loaded in a naval vessel to another team, nor may they gift a loaded naval vessel.

3.3 -- Double Move Gifting
Units that have attacked in a turn are not allowed to be gifted to any other civilization.

3.4 -- City Gifting
The admin must approve all trades and gifts involving cities before they are offered.
Reasons to reject a city trade include but are not limited to:
- The city is about to be captured in war
- Abuse of game mechanics
- Denying right of conquest
- Keeping a civilization alive indefinitely


4 Game Procedure

4.1 -- Pausing The Game
Each team gets three timeouts.
To use a timeout, post your intention in the turn tracker thread, and then press the [Pause] key to pause the game.
Timeouts last 24 hours, or until the pausing team presses the [Pause] key to unpause the game. After 24 hours, any team may unpause the game.
The admin might publicly ask a team to pause the game while reviewing an issue. Pausing the game without admin permission uses up one of your timeouts.

4.2 -- Awareness
If you discover a rules violation it is your duty to inform all participants (via Game Forum) of the violation or the solicitation thereof by any player.

4.3 -- New Exploits
If you discover a new exploit it is your duty to inform all participants (via Game Forum). Amendments for banning newly discovered exploits will require a majority vote.

4.4 -- Voting
After the game has commenced votes are tallied by team, not by individuals within the teams.

4.5 -- Punishments for Violations
Violations of these rules will be dealt with through the use of various in-game sanctions decided upon by the admin. Possible punishments include: Gold Payment, exclusion of a team member for a certain amount of turns, a formal warning, or anything else deemed appropriate.

4.6 -- Defeated Teams
If a team is defeated, any player on that team is permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players are free to share any information from their old team with their new team. This includes any images or screenshots or treaty documents that they "salvaged upon fleeing from the burning rubble of their last city." They may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team. Additionally, defeated players may opt out of the remainder of the game.

4.7 -- Timer
The turn timer will be set for 40 hours per turn.


5 Double Moves

5.1 -- Turn Split

Turns will be split between two warring teams/alliances as follows:
Phase 0 ... 40:00 - 39:00 ... Team 2
Phase 1 ... 39:00 - 20:00 ... Team 1
Phase 2 ... 20:00 - 0:00 ... Team 2

The method of determining who gets which part of the turn is 2 fold:
1. the parties agree between themselves to an equitable split. If this is not possible then:
2. The team that moved last in the turn of the declaration of war will get the last part of the turn.

If a party finishes the turn early, they can signify this by a post in a specified thread indicating they have finished their turn and the next party can play their turn. They do NOT have to end turn, but they may end turn to signify that they have finished their turn in lieu of public posting.

Phase 0 is skipped if none of Team 2's units survived a battle the previous turn.

5.2 -- Allowed actions

In phase 0 belonging to the designated party, the following actions are legal:
Promoting any unit.

In phase 1 and 2 of the turn belonging to the designated party, the following actions are legal:
Moving any unit,
Promoting any unit,
Upgrading any unit,
Gifting a unit,
Drafting any unit.

This is the only part of the turn that these actions are legal.

If anyone uses auto-promote, or auto-moves, to gain an unlawful advantage, the Game Administrator may order a reload or have the offending units deleted from the game.

Slaving, changing city builds, and changing tiles worked, is legal during ANY part of the turn.

5.3 -- Joint attacks

If two players want to attack a single target i.e. a city belonging to a third party, Civ C, then they must move sequentially. ie Civ A attacks with all of its' units, and then Civ B attacks with all of its' units during the phase of the turn belonging to them. Civ C must wait until the phase of the turn belonging to it before it may counter attack or promote any units etc as proscribed above.

5.4 -- Declaring war

For the purpose of movement, declaring war will count as movement. Once war has been declared, the party declaring war has to finish moving all of their units and end their turn before half of the remaining turn time has elapsed since the declaration of war, or within half an hour, whichever is longer

In cases where a war declaration occurs and the side declared upon (the declared) still has units to move, the declared may still move these units, and this counts as a move for the purpose of which party gets phase 2 in all subsequent turns.

ALL DECLARATIONS OF WAR, AND ENDED TURNS, SHOULD BE DOCUMENTED via screenshot Also, please send an email stating you have declared war. This isn't a rule, it won't be enforced, but as said below it is good manners.

5.5 -- Retrospective analysis

The double move rule shall also be applicable to movement on the turn prior to the declaration of war.

Spoiler Illustrations :

The following are illustrations, and any any conflict between the illustrations and the rules as stated above, the illustrations are wrong


Example 1:

Civ D intends to declare war on Civ E. Civ D has a stack of 1 movers next to Civ E border that will be the attacking force.

On the turn before war is declared, every team apart from Civ D has ended turn. Civ D logs in, and moves the slow movers into Civ E land, declaring war. At the start of the next turn, Civ D immediately moves the slow mover stack onto a hill for extra defence.

This is an illegal double move, as Civ D during Civ Es' phase of the turn, under the "Retrospective analysis" rule


Example 2:

Civ F has a fast mover stack with no movement points 2 tiles away from Civ G border, with no roads on the tiles towards the border. At the end of the turn Civ F moves to road all of the tiles, making it possible for Civ F fast mover stack to attack a lightly defended Civ G city. Civ F ended turn after Civ G.

At the start of the next turn, Civ F declares war on Civ G, AFTER Civ G has logged in at least once, and razes the lightly defended city.

This is NOT a double move, as Civ G had the chance to move after Civ F roaded the tiles. It would be a double move, if Civ F moved before Civ G logged in and out of the game.


Example 3:

Civ M, N and O plan to declare war on Civ P.

Civ M declares war on Civ P, and moves all of their units. Civ P logs in and then moves units relevant to the conflict at hand, ending turn. Civ P is thereby allocated the SWP unless both Civ M and Civ P agree otherwise.


Example 4:

X turns later while Civ M and Civ P are still at war, Civ N wants to declare war on Civ P. Civ N may declare war on Civ P at any time, but must declare war during Civ Ms' turn if Civ N is to move any units. If Civ N declares war during Civ P part of the turn, Civ N may not move any units until the following turn until the phase of the turn belonging to Civ M.

Later on, Civs M and N are attacking Civ P, and have 2 stacks of units against a city of Civ P. Both stacks are identical, and contain catapults. It is decided that Civ M attacks first. Civ M decides to attack with all of its' catapults, and then stops. Civ N then attacks with all of it's catapults, and then with the remainder of it's units, capturing the city. This is a legal move. Once Civ N starts to attack, Civ M may not move, upgrade or promote any units involved in the attack in anyway.


Example 5:

Later still, Civ O decides to back stab Civs M and N. Civ M moves a stack of units into Civ P land, and Civ O declares war and attacks them, before Civ N has moved or phase 1 has finished. This is illegal, as Civ O is decided to be on Civ Ps' side and hence uses Civ P phase of the turn to move. If Civ O were to wait until it was the Civ P phase, then attack the stack during Civ P phase it would be legal.

(the reason for this distinction is to keep the game moving as much as possible).


Example 6:

Civ R decides to gift units to Civ P. Civ R moves units into a city threatened by Civ Ms' units, and gifts the units immediately after the turn rolls over. This is illegal; the units may only be gifted during Civ Ps' phase 2. (this shouldn't matter as units can be gifted with 0 movement points remaining)

6 Amendments

6.1 -- Reloads for Mistakes

Conditions
1. Serious matter / game destroying event.
2. It can be verified.
3. It doesn’t unfairly affect another team.
4. It is not a regular occurrence / (un)limited reloads per team.
5. Request must be immediate.
6. Error has not given any / important benefits.
7. Request made anonymous
8. Admin decision or admin veto
9. Caused by an out of game incident

Situations
1. Settlement error.
2. Deleting / misusing a Great Person.
3. Rage quit.
4. Unintentional war declaration.

The easiest way to enforce all of these is:

A team asking for a reload must also call timeout and pause the game.

I doubt I will ever give a team a reload for a mistake if they don't use a timeout.

 

[DaveMcW]

Ruleset from the previous game. Some of these obviously need to be changed.

1 Out of Game Actions

1.1 -- Team Espionage
Using external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams is forbidden.
example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

1.2 -- Screenshot Trading
Screenshots taken in-game of a city, minimap, or anything else may only be given, traded, or exchanged to other teams once one of the pair knows paper.

1.3 -- Save Manipulation
Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Any actions that would allow you to edit or view the save file of another team is not allowed.

1.4
Teams may not contact each other until they have met in-game. Meta-game conversations in the UN are exempted (such as votes on rule-set amendments )

1.5
Teams are not allowed to play ahead on a downloaded version of the current save (that includes any and all actions).

​

2 In Game Actions

2.1 -- Suicide Training
Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is forbidden.

2.2 -- Reloads
In the event the game is reloaded to a previous point in time for any reason, each team must faithfully recreate any in-game actions they took after that point, to the best of their ability. Teams are encouraged to keep an explicit log of actions taken to facilitate the best recreation possible.

2.3 -- Ignore Negative Events
Every team should feel free to ignore any random events which they perceive as negative to them. Procedure: The first team-member to log on to the server for a given turn will see any random event notices for their team. If the event is viewed as "negative" the player is free to force the game to quit, and then can log back in… which will cause the game to load without any random event occurring.
​

3 In Game Gifts

3.1 –- Military Unit Gifting
Gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed is prohibited.
Great People are excepted from this rule, and may be gifted at any time.

3.2 -– Naval Unit Gifting
A team may never gift units loaded in a naval vessel to another team, nor may they gift a loaded naval vessel.

3.3 –- Double Move Gifting
Units that have attacked in a turn are not allowed to be gifted to any other civilization.

3.4 –- City Gifting
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill and should not be abused to deny right of conquest or to keep a civilization alive indefinitely and out of the hands of an aggressor.
​

4 Game Procedure

4.1 -- Turn Timer
The PitBoss server will give each team 24 hours in which to play the save and pass it on to the next team. If a team is unable to play in time, they may post a request for an extension in the turn-tracker thread, and state the reason they believe it should be granted. AFTER the extension request and rational have been posted in the turn tracker, that team may then pause the game.
The game may remain paused up to 120 hours, at which point any team may un-pause the game so play may resume.
An official vote to “continue sooner” may be posted by any team in the turn-tracker thread. Each such vote by a team will reduce the 120 hour extension by 24 hours.

4.2 -- Awareness
If you discover a rules violation it is your duty to inform all participants (via Game Forum) of the violation or the solicitation thereof by any player.

4.3 -- New Exploits
If you discover a new exploit it is your duty to inform all participants (via Game Forum). Amendments for banning newly discovered exploits will require a majority vote.

4.4 -- Voting
After the game has commenced votes are tallied by team, not by individuals within the teams. Three-fifths (3/5) Majority.

4.5 -- Punishments for Violations
Violations of these rules will be dealt with through the use of various in-game sanctions decided upon by Team Vote. Possible punishments include: Gold Payment, exclusion of a team member for a certain amount of turns, a formal warning, or anything else deemed appropriate by a majority vote. A Team Member has the right not to be tried twice for the same infraction (i.e. double jeopardy).

4.6 -- Defeated Teams
If a team is defeated, any player on that team is permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players are free to share any information from their old team with their new team. This includes any images or screenshots or treaty documents that they "salvaged upon fleeing from the burning rubble of their last city." They may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team. Additionally, defeated players may opt out of the remainder of the game.
​

 

[DaveShack]

4.1 -- Pausing The Game
Each team gets three timeouts.
To use a timeout, post your intention in the turn tracker thread, and then press the [Pause] key to pause the game.
Timeouts last 24 hours, or until the pausing team presses the [Pause] key to unpause the game. After 24 hours, any team may unpause the game.
The admin might publicly ask a team to pause the game while reviewing an issue. Pausing the game without admin permission uses up one of your timeouts.

I cannot agree to these restrictions on pausing. There are times the game will be lost if a team does not pause and take care of a situation, and I can't allow that to happen. If there is a reason, then I think a pause must be allowed.

There can and should be a limit that is designed to keep a team from purposely holding up the game for no reason. And if the entire team drops off the face of the earth we do need some way to deal with that. But 24 hours is too short, and 3 timeouts are not enough.

 

[azzaman333]

The last game was plagued with pauses, and it was a significant factor in sancta's loss of participation. I'd much rather go hardline on this, than not.

 

[fed1943]

I agree with Dave McW

 

[Sommerswerd]

I liked the timeouts idea... but if that is a deal breaker, maybe we can:
1. make the timeouts longer (72 hrs) or;
2. give more timeouts (maybe 6 instead of 3?) or;
3. Have teams BUY their timeouts by giving equal shares of gold to all the other civs (or maybe just their non-allies). The gold could be increased with each age, like 20 in Ancient, 40 in classical, 80 in rennaisance etc... Before currency, or before meeting a civ, the pause would be banked and made payable as soon as possible in-game.

After the pause, you would have to run at 0% everything until the pause was paid for. That way, you can have a pause anytime you want, but you would want to avoid it to avoid paying the penalty. The other teams will be less annoyed, because they get . Heck efficient teams might even enjoy pauses because they would always get paid.

Originally, I argued for no pausing at all, but I am willing to defer to the wisdom of people who have been around alot longer on this issue. I will play either way, but I don't want to lose whole teams because of a lack of pauses...

On the other hand, I also don't want to lose whole teams because of the long and numerous pauses...

But back on the other hand... I don't want to lose whole teams when they are losing wars and just don't have the will to fight anymore either... I guess I can't have everything I want so maybe a hardline like azz says is appropriate... Who knows?

 

[BCLG100]

Pausing a game? balls to that i'd much prefer that rule was scrapped altogether, this is a team game which means the team can plan in advance for any situations and if it can't then it deserves to lose!

I also think with regards to double moves it should only come in to play during a war, at all other times it should be allowed. It is a facet of the game which is there. I do think the honourable rule should be used as a reminder but not as an enforcer.

I know cdz will not employ it but we should incorporate a rule similar to GOTM and HOF with the oracle/liberalism bug, being able to get a tonne of techs for nothing is something which is very noticeable but still should not be allowed.

 

[DaveMcW]

I know cdz will not employ it but we should incorporate a rule similar to GOTM and HOF with the oracle/liberalism bug, being able to get a tonne of techs for nothing is something which is very noticeable but still should not be allowed.

I think that has been fixed.

 

[DMOC]

Even if a team did that in a game, the other teams would likely discontinue or the admins would take action.

 

[HUSch]

Pausing the game is equivalent to hold the save a little longer in pbems.

 

[BCLG100]

I think that has been fixed.

Ah ok well that's sorted then

 

[ash88]

Although I'm not close minded to other ideas I currently see eye-to-eye with DaveMcW on this.

To make a complex situation simple I see it like this:

Being unable to pause a game is frustrating to the players of a single team, but having a game paused is frustrating to all members of all other teams.

The frustration that people feel in not being able to pause a game can be greatly lessened by careful planing and coordination. However there is no way for people who have a game paused by another team to lessen their frustration.

In a game like this no one is going to be able to play their best game, calculate all angles, be continually available, or the like. Teams that recognize this and plan for it should be rewarded, not penalized by having to wait for teams that don't plan for it.

This is a lose lose situation - in any case there are going to be people who are frustrated with the call. The situation that causes the least frustration with the people most dedicated to the game seems to be the resolution proposed by DaveMcW.

That's my current thinking.

 

[DaveShack]

Some people have a life and will have times they cannot play their turn. It's possible (likely if you take the last game as an example) that some team will be in a position where nobody can play. Are we going to allow a team in that position to pause, or are we going to just throw them out of the game by either letting their turns skip?

I'm not sure I can be a part of this if we're going to allow a team to effectively lose the game because of RL circumstances that are out of their control. Life, family, and job come first.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I don't have a problem with a few one-off pauses. Problem is, it sometimes ends up being that the game is paused more often than it is unpaused during the later stages of the game. That can get a bit frustrating, and cause a loss of activity across the board.

So I probably stand in the middle here - I'm not completely against the odd pause, but it shouldn't become a regular occurrence. If a team's having real difficulty getting anyone to play, maybe we can consider having someone who's active switch teams, or bring in someone active from outside.

 

[classical_hero]

Pausing a game is a tricky issue, since there are going to be extraordinary situations where no one can the save,and if not allowed then that team could disintegrate, but on the other allowing too much time for stoppages could cause other teams to get disinterested in the game by the lack of action, like the previous game. Ideally every team should have back up plans to make sure that the game flows a smoothly as possible. We ant this game to be as much fun for all players. For the most part i agree with what Dave has said, but there are potential issues with the pause issue.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Pausing a game is a tricky issue, since there are going to be extraordinary situations where no one can the save,and if not allowed then that team could disintegrate, but on the other allowing too much time for stoppages could cause other teams to get disinterested in the game by the lack of action, like the previous game. Ideally every team should have back up plans to make sure that the game flows a smoothly as possible. We ant this game to be as much fun for all players. For the most part i agree with what Dave has said, but there are potential issues with the pause issue.

Which Dave? There are two in this thread.

 

[BCLG100]

Some people have a life and will have times they cannot play their turn. It's possible (likely if you take the last game as an example) that some team will be in a position where nobody can play. Are we going to allow a team in that position to pause, or are we going to just throw them out of the game by either letting their turns skip?

I'm not sure I can be a part of this if we're going to allow a team to effectively lose the game because of RL circumstances that are out of their control. Life, family, and job come first.

That is sad but this is also a team game, presumably there should be backup players/more members of a team playing? else what is the point in playing as a team, we could just all play singularly and write up spoilers!

If pauses are allowed at what point do we say "no more"? generally real life circumstances which involve the missing of a turn also involve missing consecutive turns so if we say 48 hours wouldn't we effectively be doing the same thing as not having a pause function?

I would prefer not to have a pause function in the game but it's not a big deal if there is, i'm just showing the argument against it

 

[DaveShack]

If we got through the game with no pauses needed I'd be as happy as anyone. And I wouldn't want to see the game degenerate because pauses are too frequent or too long. You'd think at this stage of the game there would be no problems finding someone play it.

Here's the problem with including a specific number of pauses or a specific timeframe. There are some people who will demand the admins invoke the rule without any regard to the circumstances, while others would let things slide a bit. The thing that annoys me most in these games are the people who try to use the rules as a substitute method of winning.

I think we need a rule that protects against truly frivolous pausing, while allowing teams to pause whenever and however long they have a true need. And it can't be the other teams deciding if there is need or not, it has to be the admins. Let's not have teams calling fouls on other teams.

 

[BCLG100]

If we got through the game with no pauses needed I'd be as happy as anyone. And I wouldn't want to see the game degenerate because pauses are too frequent or too long. You'd think at this stage of the game there would be no problems finding someone play it.

Here's the problem with including a specific number of pauses or a specific timeframe. There are some people who will demand the admins invoke the rule without any regard to the circumstances, while others would let things slide a bit. The thing that annoys me most in these games are the people who try to use the rules as a substitute method of winning.

I think we need a rule that protects against truly frivolous pausing, while allowing teams to pause whenever and however long they have a true need. And it can't be the other teams deciding if there is need or not, it has to be the admins. Let's not have teams calling fouls on other teams.

But that's an issue really is how is it defined, if you do have the rule at all then it must be defined and also a length must be defined and not just open to whenever the Admins decide whether they do or do not allow it.

Probably why i see it as just easier to have a simple no pause ruling.

 

[classical_hero]

Which Dave? There are two in this thread.

Very clever. I mean my fellow admin for this game.