Schools & Churchs - what % of your cities have these?

[BossArky]

Let's say you have 10 cities. How many cities would you build schools and churches in?

I used to never bother with either. I would buy the experts or get them trained up from native tribes... and didn't realise that religion was needed for immigration

Anyway, now I realise that a small number of schools and churches may be useful. My current game has 1 of each.

To be honest, I find the schools a bit redundant. The real experts (tobacconist/silver miner/blacksmith ... I think) cost so much money for graduation that there is little point waiting 10 to 15 turns for them to study when you also have to pay their graduation fee at the end of school. Just buy them in Europe when you need them and safe time. What do you think?

My single church generates 6 religion per turn and seems to do ok with 1 Firebrand Preacher in there. Do people bother with more churches?

 

[dalgo]

I had a look back at my most recent game where I had, by coincidence, exactly 10 cities. They contained 3 cathedrals and 7 churches producing a total of 398 crosses per turn, and 2 schools, 5 colleges and a university that had helped me train my 63 veteran soldiers.

 

[BossArky]

Hi Dalgo,

Thanks for the reply.

Interesting. So you can train veteran soldiers using schools, etc? Hmmm.. I must try that.

398 crosses per turn? Wow.... you must have a massive population falling off the docks getting ready to swim the Atlantic!

Cheers!

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone,

The key to everything in Colonization is specialization!
A school or a church may not be necessary in every colony. And yet you must have at least one or two universities and cathedrals (minimum)!

 

[Joey Batts]

I had a look back at my most recent game where I had, by coincidence, exactly 10 cities. They contained 3 cathedrals and 7 churches producing a total of 398 crosses per turn, and 2 schools, 5 colleges and a university that had helped me train my 63 veteran soldiers.

How do you train veteran soldiers?

I don't see it in the list of professions to choose.
I have a veteran soldier making coats and another in the garrison, but I can't train colonists to become one.

I probably need a higher rebel sentiment%.

 

[dalgo]

More likely you need the patch. In the first release you couldn't train vets but they fixed that in the patch.

You also need enough cash to pay their graduation fee of course.

 

[BossArky]

I also cannot train veteran soldiers in my schools, even when they are in the town hall generating liberty bells and I have enough cash.

I'll check the patch tonight on home pc. What patch do it need to upgrade to?

 

[dalgo]

There is only one patch for Civ4Col (v1.01f). To check if you already have it installed go to the Main Menu/Advanced/About this Build where it should say 'Final Release'.

If you do not have the patch it is available in the Downloads section. If you have trouble installing it check the Technical Support forum.

This patch fixes a lot of issues in the game, in particular the education system was badly broken in the first release. Another advantage is that the CD does not need to be inserted to play the game.

 

[Joey Batts]

More likely you need the patch. In the first release you couldn't train vets but they fixed that in the patch.

You also need enough cash to pay their graduation fee of course.

Thanks.

I need the patch.
I bought civ 4 colonization on sunday and haven't patched it yet.

 

[Joey Batts]

Let's say you have 10 cities. How many cities would you build schools and churches in?

I used to never bother with either. I would buy the experts or get them trained up from native tribes... and didn't realise that religion was needed for immigration

Anyway, now I realise that a small number of schools and churches may be useful. My current game has 1 of each.

To be honest, I find the schools a bit redundant. The real experts (tobacconist/silver miner/blacksmith ... I think) cost so much money for graduation that there is little point waiting 10 to 15 turns for them to study when you also have to pay their graduation fee at the end of school. Just buy them in Europe when you need them and safe time. What do you think?

My single church generates 6 religion per turn and seems to do ok with 1 Firebrand Preacher in there. Do people bother with more churches?

I've tried various starting strategies, trying to get off to a flying start.

1) Explore early to get treasure and trade horses and guns with the natives to get enough money to buy a galleon to pick it up.

2) Cross based economy: building docks, church, lumbermill then a cathedral in your first city works best.

Everyone working in a church eats 2 food and everyone working in a cathedral eats 2 food. The opportunity cost of 2 food is 20 gold, so if your going to build a church you might as well build a cathedral.

The gold based economy suffers from declining returns on investment as the king raises taxes.
The cross based economy doesn't have that problem, but every immigrant bought off the dock with crosses, makes the next one more expensive. Once you get above 300 crosses for the next immigrant the jumps are +36 crosses for the next immigrant.
3 Firebrand preachers = 6000 gold.

It's like running faster and faster on a treadmill, As you build more and more cities, churchs and cathedrals. It still takes the same amount of time to buy an immigrant with crosses. But it definitely helps in your first city. But all those people in the cathedral are eating food.

3) The food based economy. It works well with strat 1. The indians gift you with so much stuff at the start I have to halt production because my warehouse is full to often. Concentrate on food production, while your ship make contact with as many tribes as possible. Tribes start off with low gold, but it increases after contact with europeans. I'm not sure, but I think when all tribes are at max gold they can buy a galleon of horses and still have money left over. With guns only the incas and aztecs can buy a galleon of muskets. Not sure? The other tribes can only buy a caravel of guns. I think, based on a week of play.

The big advantage of the food based economy is that the rate of return isn't affected by the king's tax rate or increase the tax rate like the gold economy. A constant 200 food buys a free colonist unlike the cross based economy which cost more and more crosses to buy an immigrant.

4) The missionary/indian convert economy. Limited experiments shows a free colonist missionary in a size 5 village with lots of food bonuses produced a convert in 20 turns. Whereas a size 1 village took 40 turns. I'm not sure how conversion works, but big villages look very profitable opportunity cost wise.

5) Build 6 cities asap thinking each city generated one cross each. Doesn't work. Your cross production is still 1/turn.

Education is that like cross production? Where it takes longer and longer to educate someone. I'm seeing 5 turns for the first free colonist, 6 turns for the second one... ...looks like buying immigrants with crosses from europe? But I don't have the patch?

Someone in a school eats 2 food/turn, some one in a college eats 2 food/turn, someone in a university eats 2 food/turn. The trade off is how much time you waste moving a colonist to a city with a university vs the efficiency of 2 food/turn of a university.

The opportunity cost of all specialist jobs is that they eat 2 food/turn or if you try to buy food in europe at 10 gold/food it's 20 gold/specialist per turn. Those 2 food/turn would buy you a free colonist in 100 turns.

I don't think the opportunity cost of one food is 10 gold. A little less I think, but a missionary doesn't eat food...

 

[Joey Batts]

Um, I forgot one thing. Building a dock/church in your first city causes less petty criminals to show up on the immigrant dock.

 

[dalgo]

I've tried various starting strategies, trying to get off to a flying start.

1) Explore early to get treasure and trade horses and guns with the natives to get enough money to buy a galleon to pick it up.

I think this is the best opening tactic in the game. There is plenty of free gold available but only if you get there first.

2) Cross based economy:

If you are planning on a cross based economy then start with the English (-25% crosses needed for immigration) and look for Founding Fathers John Winthrop (+1 cross per Town Hall), Gabriel Lallemont (+50% faster production of churches and cathedrals) and William Penn (+3 crosses per Town Hall). You will have so many free immigrants you will have trouble finding work for them all.

3) The food based economy

Maximising food production in each colony by using pioneers to clear the land and employing expert farmers and fishermen should be a part of any game plan.

4) The missionary/indian convert economy

The French are a great help with the natives as they generate less unrest and native training is twice as fast, and Samuel de Champlain gives a +100% Native Conversion rate. Couple this with the Founding Father Bartolome de las Casas for another +50% native conversion rate.

5) Build 6 cities asap

You can make the multiple colony approach work by choosing the right Founding Fathers. Winthrop and Penn as mentioned above confer additional crosses per town hall, Patrick Henry provides +3 bells per town hall and Alexander Hamilton gives +3 production per town hall, so even a 1-colonist town gets these advantages.


That still leaves the Spanish and their combat bonus (sack the native villages for gold and converts), not to mention the Dutch and their trading advantages. There is plenty of variety in this game.

 

[Joey Batts]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Batts
I've tried various starting strategies, trying to get off to a flying start.

1) Explore early to get treasure and trade horses and guns with the natives to get enough money to buy a galleon to pick it up.
I think this is the best opening tactic in the game. There is plenty of free gold available but only if you get there first.

I tried a very early exploration strategy.

On my first trip to europe, I hurried production of a free colonist immigrant and bought 100 horses. Went back to my settlement, made 2 scouts and sent them exploring.

I traded 400 horses to the neighbouring Incan's and got enough to buy a galleon.
That got me 15 treasures. After that I started trading horses, guns and tools with the Indians.
My first and second cities focused on producing food, then hammers then crosses.
3rd city was a silver city, near 2 silver resources on the coast. Far from my starting cities.

By turn 100, it was like: Look for a place to start a new city. Buy a caravel. Decide to buy 2 farmers, 2 fisherman or a farmer and a fisherman to start the city. Move them to the settlement site. Pay the indians for the land. Then several turns later. Rinse repaeat.

The nice thing about trading with the natives is that you don't have to pay any taxes although it does make you tax rate go up. I think.

 

[FeedingDucks]

100%
What about universities: it's very useful, when you have a load of criminals. They are useless, so, the best way for them is to study. Also, for money, that you spend for specialists in Europe, better buy units\resources, that impossible\difficult\expensive to get in your colony (e.g. I have bought thousands of cotton, when I settled in Greenland)

What about churches: so, it's good, when someone is waiting your ships, in Europe,

 

[Joey Batts]

100%
What about universities: it's very useful, when you have a load of criminals. They are useless, so, the best way for them is to study. Also, for money, that you spend for specialists in Europe, better buy units\resources, that impossible\difficult\expensive to get in your colony (e.g. I have bought thousands of cotton, when I settled in Greenland)

What about churches: so, it's good, when someone is waiting your ships, in Europe,

The problem with universities is that they take a lot of hammers. I think it's best to build them in cities with 2 forests with 2 lumberjacks and 2 carpenters in a lumber mill.

Criminals I send to an indian village to be educated. Then bring back to a settlement and assign him a job at his specialty or clear his specialty to make him a free colonist and reeducate him or make him a pioneer, missionary, dragoon.

I don't think building churchs and schools and having lumberjacks and carpenters early is important anymore. I really like the idea of buying cotton in europe to produce cloth if you don't have any.


Now that, I've played the game some more and reread dalgo's strategy article again... ...That was a good guide.
On the higher difficulty levels the indians are more likely to attack you.

So getting Peter Miniut asap, settlement defence and maintaining good relations with neighboring indians are important.

If I remember correctly from the article on native relations, indians don't like cities above size 4, and sending missionaries and trading with them improves relations too. Not paying for land for new cities and building settlements next to them pisses them off.

Does sending a missionary earn FF religious points?

So an ideal size 4 city has a stockade built asap and a cannon bought in europe to protect it. After the stockade is built, build a wagon train because you second and third size 4 cities are going to focus on silverming nearby hills and mountains.
Early wagon trains are useful for bringing silver and furs from inland settlements to the coast, bringing food to a central location to speed up the production of free colonists generated by food and for trading with inland native villages.

The ideal size 4 city has an expert farmer or fisherman to produce food. A bell producer to get FF's and expropriate indian land. And 2 money makers, silverminers in the hills and furtrappers in the woods are best. Or cotton,sugar, tobacco planters if neccessary. Depends on the prices you see in europe.

Buy the expert silverminers in europe and just buy a cheap unit in europe or use someone from the docks and equip them with horses, bring him back to the new world and send them to furtrapping school at a native village.

Finally, the ideal size 4 city has pioneer improving the tiles being worked and builds roads to connect future settlements.

So I think the ideal starting strategy is explore asap, to get treasure and find out where to get expert furtrappers, cotton, sugar and tobacco planters. Then trade with the natives to get money to buy a galleon to pick up the treasure, then get 8 sized 4 cities asap while keeping relations with indians at pleased. Also very early bell production to get Peter Miniut asap is vital.

You want a ship building, rum, cloth, coats, cigars, tools, muskets and horse producing cities.

 

[Joey Batts]

Now that I've played the game a few weeks, crosses are the best early way to get colonists. So the first buildings in your first settlement should be a church then a cathedral. Then put in whatever unit you can to work in it and buy one firebrand preacher too.

One firebrand preacher in a cathedral earns 12 crosses/turn. Up to the point where 240 crosses (20 turns for one preacher)are required for the next immigrant a preacher in a cathedral earns a great return on investment. from 240 to 600 crosses a preacher in a cathedral is productive. At 600 crosses it takes 50 turns for one firebrand preacher to buy an immigrant off the docks. The same low productivity of a fisherman working a sea tile with docks.

Adding a second or third preacher does't change the average productivity of a preacher producing crosses. It takes 10% more crosses to generate the next immigrant, so eventually cross production becomes unproductive all though the FF that increases cross production by the tax rate helps.

So all you need is one cathedral in your first settlement with 3 firebrand preachers. After that creating missionaries is more productive.

An early college is useful for saving money on expensive units like firebrand preachers, elder statesmen and hardy pioneers.. Buying a cheap unit in europe, bringing him back to the new world, clearing his specialty and put him in college to learn one of those 3 professions saves money.

Later on every large city needs to train veteran soldiers for the woi, so education buildings are vital.

 

[reddishrecue]

Running out of things to build is a reason why schools and churches come up sometimes.

 

[RJBaczynski]

Usually I have 2 cathedrals for immigration points since I like playing the Dutch. If I build churches in each settlement the program assigns too many colonists to the church when I let it automatically add a settler to a colony. Later when I declare independence I have the cross production change into hammer producion instead.

I will try to get at leat a schoolhouse built in any colony that has a specialist in it in order to train petty criminals, indentured servants, plain colonists and to change converted natives to specialists. Although the native settlements train at a faster rate, once they give up their land to you and their village is gone you will have to train your specialists in your own cities.

 

[Blind Side]

I will typically build churches and schools in my feeder towns only after I have built a warehouse, stockade, armory and printing press (in that order). In my main city I wait till after I have a factory level building for all the resources I have readily available in my feeder towns.

 

[Windfoot]

Running out of things to build shouldn't be a problem. Use the production to get points for the next Founding Father (FF)