Scouts and Ancient Ruins

[Thalassicus]

Update: I've solved this issue by creating a new Opportunity focused on scouts, described at the bottom of this post.

================

Which option do you prefer when a scout enters an ancient ruin?

• Provide nonupgrade bonuses for scouts, such as a free tech.
  Tested in June. Some people miss the upgrade possibility.
  .
• Upgrade scouts to levies.
  Tested in May. Some feel the chance of a levy on turn 10 is too powerful.
  .
• Upgrade scouts to archers.
  Tested in September. Some feel this upgrade is weak.
  .
• Upgrade scouts to some other unit.
  Not yet tested.
  .
  .
  Each of the options above has a Silver ignore terrain promotion on scouts.
  Silver promotions do not upgrade. They represent standard weapons and armor of a unit class, replaced when upgraded to new gear.
  Gold promotions upgrade with the unit. These represent unusual experience or equipment independent from typical gear.
  ..
  Infeasible options:
  .
• Gold ignore terrain promotion (vanilla).
  Tested in April. Mass upgrading scouts to ignore-terrain levy armies is exploitative against the AI.
  .
• Silver ignore terrain promotion, but acts as gold if upgraded by ancient ruins.
  This is not practical with our current modding tools, without the game core only Firaxis has access to.

G. Some other idea not yet imagined?




======== Update ========

I've been thinking hard about this topic, and would like to propose an out of the box solution:





Actually it's more inside a box!

This opportunity avoids all the problems described earlier. It gives us a choice of outcomes, so we can customize our early game scout to suit our preferred playstyle. It's independent of ancient ruins so we have full control over it. Sadly we can't change the default ancient ruins stuff much. I'm thinking it would go along with Option A from above.

 

[Seek]

I like "E" - the vanilla upgrade. I don't find it exploitative at all, since in a good majority of games you'd have one ITC-Archer at best. Also, the term "exploit" implies something that is consciously and deliberately done, not a random draw from a lottery and thus not really applicable here.

The "Scorcher" (as I like to call the unit) was exciting to get, unique (the only unit I've ever renamed) and not so powerful as to break the game (one could easily argue that pop or culture ruins are stronger). But I don't feel too strongly about it, just my 2¢.

 

[Thalassicus]

E. Upgrade scouts to archers, gold ITC.
Tested in April. Mass upgrading scouts to levies was exploitable against the AI, and I avoid exploits in VEM.

Option E allows armies of levies who ignore terrain. The AI underestimates the power of such an army to bypass common barriers like rivers, forests, and hills.

The strategy is to let the AI get close, then fortify and heal while avoiding unit losses. Eventually the AI attempts to retreat. We move forward and slaughter the helpless retreating army. It's incredibly powerful when our whole army ignores terrain. Unlike a human, the AI doesn't make an orderly retreat, or turn around and form battle lines to defend from pursuits. I think of this as an exploit because:

• The strategy requires minimal skill to execute.
• It's a game-ender.
• The AI does not use it against us.

If any of the 3 factors were different it would be okay. Like if the AI did it to us when invading their territory. Fortify against us, heal, and rout us if we attempt to retreat. It doesn't do this, and we'd need game-core access to add it to the AI.

 

[Seek]

Oh, I understand - the ITC promotion is necessarily either silver or gold and we can't have both. In that case I would probably still prefer the archer (with the silver promo) over the Levy.

 

[Thalassicus]

There's both silver and gold versions, as different concepts:

Ignores terrain cost
Ignores terrain cost.

Scouts get this for free.
This represents a scout's standard light armor and weapons. They have lower combat strength, but traverse rough terrain more effectively without the burden of heavy military gear.


Recon 1
Ignores terrain cost.
+1 sight.

Naval and vanguard units can spend XP to get this.
This represents a regular military unit equipping lighter gear for recon duties. The unit has lower combat strength than if it selected a different promotion (like Targeting or Trenches).


Because of the xp and strength tradeoffs I feel Recon 1 armies are not overpowered against the AI.

I considered making the scout->levy upgrade cost more. However, that would alter widescale balance to provide one rare circumstance from ancient ruins. I'm not sure that would be a good solution. Another alternative is I could create a hidden duplicate archer unit with the gold version, and ruins-upgrade scouts to that instead. It'd require one duplicate for every current and future civilization with an archer UU. I think that might be confusing for players, and I estimate it would take 8-10 hours of effort, time probably better spent on more critical tasks like the opportunity system.

Silver promotions acting as gold with ancient ruins (Option F) is impractical for two reasons. It's inconsistent with how promotions usually work. It's also unrealistic, like pikes keeping the mounted bonus even if boosted to muskets. The bonus was because of the pikes, weapons specifically designed to counter horses, and doesn't make sense on muskets.

 

[albie_123]

After playing with scout to levy, it feels more appropriate than an archer. Usually I either send the archer back home to defend from an AI rush, pick off pillaging barbarians from range or get it to clean out some barbs - both of which are simply not in tune with what you wanted the scout to do in the first place. I suppose the same could be said with a levy without the terrain bonus, but the strength in itself is a big bonus to exploring, which should be the units role. It means there's practically no chance of barbarians getting the sneak on me and picking it off.

I am fully in favour of scout to levy.

future civs with unique archers, you say?

 

[Txurce]

I chose option A, because it seems to fit best within the existing system. I have no problem with the scout becoming a true archer, although it does take him out of the Vanguard line. I could live with a scout-archer, although it's potentially unbalancing.

But I just started a game with v131, drew a Levy promotion, had him up to three promos in no time, and he quickly became the scourge of the barbs. I am about to use him as the shield for an early catapult war. I really do think it's too much.

 

[kc_bandit]

The OP is way over my head. I must be late to the game because gold, silver, upgrade, promotions, weapons, new tech - all of it, makes no sense at all. I literally have no idea what the categories listed mean.

Bottom line here - Vanilla had it right. It was fun. The changes made made it less fun. So just let the scout be upgraded like it was in Vanilla.

If you can't do that because of the new Vanguard class or whatever, then just make sure whatever you do the new upgraded or promoted unit ignores terrain costs forever like Vanilla.

 

[Jaybe]

Can the ruins grant the Recon I promotion to a soldier unit?
If so, Scout -> (Warrior + Recon I).

Otherwise, a silver promotion of +50% defense plus March. (The +50% defense could be replaced with a silver +100% defense). Keeps it as a healthy reconnaissance unit.

 

[Zaldron]

I voted for scout silver ==> archer. I was *never* bummed when I got even a non-ITC archer, and the upgrade to levy is just too much.

EDIT: Can you duplicate the archer in all ways into a "scarcher" unit that scouts upgrade to? The scarcher would have ITC and (possibly) upgrade nowhere to prevent abuse. Then ruins would upgrade scouts to scarchers instead of archers. Scouts would still have silver ITC.

 

[wobuffet]

EDIT: Can you duplicate the archer in all ways into a "scarcher" unit that scouts upgrade to? The scarcher would have ITC and (possibly) upgrade nowhere to prevent abuse. Then ruins would upgrade scouts to scarchers instead of archers. Scouts would still have silver ITC.

It would have to be the opposite, I imagine. Thal would have to make a new unit (Archer2?) that you could build, whereas regular Archers would only come from Scouts upgrading from ruins.

 

[Thalassicus]

I've added more information to the first post to hopefully explain our options better. Sorry for the confusion! It's a very complex topic, which is why I want to have as many viewpoints as possible to make a final decision.

Vanilla is option E, which allows the AI exploit described in post #3.

just make sure whatever you do the new upgraded or promoted unit ignores terrain costs forever like Vanilla.

This is option F, which is impractical.

Can the ruins grant the Recon I promotion to a soldier unit?
If so, Scout -> (Warrior + Recon I).
Otherwise, a silver promotion of +50% defense plus March. (The +50% defense could be replaced with a silver +100% defense). Keeps it as a healthy reconnaissance unit.

This is not feasible with our current modding tools.

Can you duplicate the archer in all ways into a "scarcher" unit that scouts upgrade to? The scarcher would have ITC and (possibly) upgrade nowhere to prevent abuse. Then ruins would upgrade scouts to scarchers instead of archers. Scouts would still have silver ITC.

This is:

Another alternative is I could create a hidden duplicate archer unit with the gold version, and ruins-upgrade scouts to that instead. It'd require one duplicate for every current and future civilization with an archer UU. I think that might be confusing for players, and I estimate it would take 8-10 hours of effort, time probably better spent on more important tasks like the opportunity system.

 

[Zaldron]

I've added more information to the first post to hopefully explain our options better. Sorry for the confusion!

Vanilla is option E, which creates the overpowered exploit against the AI described earlier.


This is option F, which is not feasible without the game core only Firaxis has access to.


This is not possible with our current modding tools.


This is:

I had no idea that even if possible it would be that much work. The time is definitely better spent on other tasks.

 

[kc_bandit]

I've added more information to the first post to hopefully explain our options better. Sorry for the confusion! It's a very complex topic, which is why I want to have as many viewpoints as possible to make a final decision.

Vanilla is option E, which allows the AI exploit.

Okay, you are amazingly patient and helpful - and I think I actually have this figured this part out. Please correct me if I am wrong.

In order to allow the Scout to be upgraded into an archer that keeps the ITC forever, that would require all other normal scouts to have the ability to be manually (gold cost) upgraded to Levies with a forever ITC promotion/trait intact. That is not an issue for Vanilla because there are no levies and there are no Scout upgrades (other than the rare ruin upgrade). It is the new Levy/Vanguard class in VEM that is causing this problem.

Okay - I think I get it now (assuming I am right about the above). And I would wholeheartedly agree that an army of ITC Levies would be game breaking. Hmmm, this has me thinking a little out of the box.

Enduldge me for a moment here. I absolutely love the idea of the Vanguard class. For example, it used to be that I could create an army of Infanty or Mech Infanty and just roll the AI. Now, they stick a bunch of light infantry units side by side and behind each other in between me and the prize (the Capital or some awesome city I need to take), and it becomes a major chore to get through those defenses. But it's a fun chore - one that is enjoyable to have to think about and plan for (and sometimes requiring bomber tech or some extremely well positioned artillary units to bust through without losing half of my army.

That has been a great addition to VEM. In fact, it is one that I think could be even further enhanced by doing this:

Vanguard units should be defensive units - period. They get bonuses on defense when next to each other and in significant numbers. That provides for great strategy and fun gameplay. But how about severely limiting their ability to wage war? Perhaps a -50% attack bonus, no Great General bonus for attacks, no flanking bonus, etc. Would that not solve the army of upgraded Levies issue above? Would that not make it a clear demarkation of units and their abilities? Wouldn't that be more interesting and engaging?

Every time I post, I worry that this was discussed and dismissed or actually implemented to some extent months ago since I am so new to the game, but thought I would at least throw it out there. My guess is that the AI might not be able to use such units effectively - or the dreaded game core response.

I was just thinking that having a Scout that upgrades to an ITC Levy with a 10 defense rating and 5 offense rating would be a great compromise. It's primary purpose should be to explore and defend - not to clear barbs or to rush opponents. And for that matter, I just like the idea that Vanguard units should be used to explore/defend - period. Sure, a light infanty should be able to kill a warrior or spearman with no problems, but three of them side by side should be no match for a more advanced unit like a tank (or city for that matter).

 

[Thalassicus]

Ideas discussed in the past resurface, are re-evaluated, and often different decisions are made. It happens for a number of reasons... the mod itself might have changed, our strategies might have matured, or I've simply learned more about coding and can do new things that used to be impractical. I encourage you to post any comments or questions you have, no matter what!

My guess is that the AI might not be able to use such units effectively - or the dreaded game core response.

It would be very easy to do, but as you suspected the AI would not handle it effectively. The AI does best with modest unit bonuses. It prevents the AI from insta-losing if it makes any simple, but incredibly dumb mistake the human would never do.

One example is I reduced the spear/pike mounted bonus to 50% (was 100%), with a 25% defense bonus (was 0%). The means an AI with horses won't insta-lose by erroneously declaring war on an AI with a sea of pikes. It's still bad, but not as much as before. It's the same when the situations are reversed, an AI building pikes when surrounded by civs with Iron-based unique units. No decently experienced human player would ever do that, but AIs don't evaluate things as well as we do.

To apply this to your particular example, if the AI happened to mistakenly build levies without offensive units, it would cripple itself in offensive wars. I try to set up the AI variables to prevent unusual circumstances like this but it can't always be avoided. These situations often makes the game too easy (or too hard) for the human player, which usually isn't fun, so I go for moderate bonuses.

This is why I selected +25% defense and +25% near-military bonuses for vanguard units. Something else to remember is Vanguard promotions only improve defense strength, and at lower rates than Soldier units like Pikemen. The more experienced they are, the more it emphasizes their defensive role.

Comparing units typically used in medieval wars:



Notice how a lone 2-promo levy attacking with GG support has 12, while a pike in that situation has 16 Strength is not linear, so it turns into a huge damage bonus.

 

[wobuffet]

(edit: Typed this up before seeing that Thal responded. Oh well.)

There's already a significant innate defense bonus for all Vanguard units. There's some question whether that balance has been achieved or not, but that properly belongs in the Armies thread. (The AI is better at using large numbers of less powerful units, so this makes gameplay more challenging – at least so long as we don't have access to the game core/DLL.)


Thal, here's a quick idea: how about an "upgrade" to all Scouts and Levies undoing any "Ignore terrain cost" promotions upon discovering Civil Service? Or granting +30XP along with the ruin, if that's feasible?

 

[Thalassicus]

(moved to original post)

 

[kc_bandit]

Thanks again for the in-depth info/response. It's so weird that the AI can't be programmed to understand that certain units are for defense and some are for attacking!!

I am going to post my next question in another thread so as not to derail this one.

 

[kc_bandit]

I've been thinking about this topic all day, and would like to propose an out of the box solution:



Well, technically putting it in a box.

This opportunity-based solution avoids all the problems I described earlier, and gives choices over the outcome. It can easily be applied to any other units. This one's early so all 3 choices are free. It's independent of ancient ruins, which means I can easily and completely control the effects.

Uhm, one word comes to mind - BRILLIANT??

1) You give the player a choice = fun.

2) The choice has trade offs = challenging and requires thought.

3) I get an archer that can ignore terrain = win.

I am assuming that the ITC goes away when upgraded to a crossbow? If so, I am totally okay with that as a compromise. If not, then I am on cloud nine.

 

[Sneaks]

Which option do you prefer when a scout enters an ancient ruin?

• Provide nonupgrade bonuses for scouts, such as a free tech.
  Tested in June. Some people miss the upgrade possibility.
  .
• Upgrade scouts to levies.
  Tested in May. Some feel the chance of a levy on turn 10 is too powerful.
  .
• Upgrade scouts to archers.
  Tested in September. Some feel this upgrade is weak.
  .
• Upgrade scouts to some other unit.
  Not yet tested.
  .
  .
  Each of the options above has a Silver ignore terrain promotion on scouts.
  Silver promotions do not upgrade. They represent standard weapons and armor of a unit class, replaced when upgraded to new gear.
  Gold promotions upgrade with the unit. These represent unusual experience or equipment independent from typical gear.
  ..
  Infeasible options:
  .
• Gold ignore terrain promotion (vanilla).
  Tested in April. Mass upgrading scouts to ignore-terrain levy armies is exploitative against the AI.
  .
• Silver ignore terrain promotion, but acts as gold if upgraded by ancient ruins.
  This is not practical with our current modding tools, without the game core only Firaxis has access to.

G. Some other idea not yet imagined?

G:

Scouts upgrade to Archers: On Archer unit creation, if Plot =/= CityPlot then Add Promotion Ignore Terrain. If Plot = CityPlot then do not.