SGOTM 05 - Geezers

Sam_Yeager · Aug 23, 2007

Pariah said:
Christianity is founded in Athens!

More happiness for us.

Pariah said:
Alex has built new scout in Athens - now has 5 defensive units present. Why didn't he build an archer instead?

Your SS only shows 4 defensive units which ties in with 6 units mentioned by you earlier before two died attacking our axes. IIRC the AI in vanilla & warlords will always complete current builds rather than switching to something more appropriate when under threat. This is one of the things changed in BTS.

Pariah said:
3 galleys move E 2 tiles, back toward Corinth. Axeman with CR2 boards.

I hope we've still got some half decent defence left in Corinth.

Looks like good progress. I'm particularly pleased to see that Alex has only got one phalanx. Once we get the cats there to knock down the cultural defence it shouldn't be too difficult to take Athens.

Pariah · Aug 23, 2007

Just completed the second half of my turnset.

IBT:
*Peace treaty with Isabella cancelled.
*Japanese swordsman moved next to Phoenician.
*Spanish chariot approaches Yayoi.
*Arab chariot into jungle/hill tile SW of Ning-hsia.
*Greek archer & settler land on north of silver island, 1 tile west of ruins (and our keshik).

Turn 6 (410 AD):
*Keshik/chariot stack attacks Arab chariot. Enemy unit destroyed; keshik damaged (5.1/6, 10/10 XPs). Fortify til healed.
*3 galleys W then SW. Axeman unload onto corn farm tile SE of Athens.
*Main stack moved S onto same tile. Fortify.
*Galley 2 tile W from Turfan, along our S coast.

IBT:
*Spanish chariot away from Yayoi.
*Alex founds new city, Delphi, on silver island

Turn 7 (425 AD):
*Discover Iron Working. Select Calendar next (40 turns at current tech rate).
*Iron sources discovered: in existing mine hill tile N of Old Sarai, & new cottage tile SE of Corinth.
*Keshik SW of Ning-hsia promotion, combat 3. Stack returns to Ning-hsia, fortify til healed.
*Stack on Athens island could attack city, odds 5.5 to 5.85 (enemy). Decide not to attack right now; but must do so before Alex builds new archer or city wall (or even discovers Feudalism...)
*Unstack 3 galleys; 2 move 2 SW, 1 back towards Corinth.
*2 keshiks on silver island attack Delphi. City destroyed (+1 gold). 1 keshik badly damaged (0.9/6, 6/5 XPs).
*Worker move S from Karakorum into jungle, build cottage.
*Worker on iron tile SW of Corinth move E, build another cottage (iron can be mined once 2nd cottage is complete).
*Ning-hsia now building swordsman.

IBT:
*Chinese galley moves 1 tile N of Corinth.

Turn 8 (440 AD):
*Promote keshik on silver island, combat 2. Both keshiks move along road E then SE to old ruins.
*2 galleys move towards silver island.
*Keshik in main stack pillages Greek corn farm (+3 gold), then whole stack moves W back to horse tile.
*Worker moves to jungle tile NW of Turfan, build cottage.
*Galley sleep in Corinth.

IBT:
*Chinese galley holds position ut is doing no harm.

Turn 9 (455 AD):
*Unstack chariot & keshik in Ning-hsia, move chariot to Karakorum.
*2 galleys 1 tile SW to silver island; 2 keshiks board; galleys back NE, now off to Athens island W shore.
*Main stack move 1 tile NW, into forest tile W of Athens. Fortify.
*1 galley 2 W on our S coast. Discover that Arabs have founded a new city, Basra, at S tip of our landmass.

IBT:
*Athens population reduced to 5. Greek scout on copper hill. Worker remains in city. Greek defenders now: 1 phalanx, 1 chariot, 2 archers.
*Japanese swordsman retreats from Phoenician.

Turn 10 (470 AD):
*Unload 2 keshiks into forest tile W of Athens, joining main stack: we have now massed 5 axemen (2 damaged) & 4 keshiks (1 damaged). Can attack Athens next turn.
*2 galleys SE 2 tiles.
*1 galley SW then S, now E of Basra.

Saved game. Current situation:

AgedOne · Aug 23, 2007

@Pariah
Congrats on your 1st turnset with the Geezers. :goodjob:

We're looking in good shape.
(I wouldn't try to hit Athens just yet. Those attack odds are not very nice. A quick pounding with the new catapults should serve to change their minds

)
I like those iron locations! Especially the one we've already mined at Old Sarai.
"Soon our swordsmen shall march across Lushland from coast to coast. Ha Ha!"

Sam_Yeager · Aug 23, 2007

@Pariah - Congrats on your first SGOTM turnset. :goodjob:

The attack 201 course is all about :whipped:

.

I propose to :whipped:

Beshbalik & Corinth for their cats. Old Sarai also gets :whipped:

to give me a galley to transport Besh's cat to join the attack force. By my reckoning that should give me two cats about half way through my turnset. Turfan is unhappy so it also gets a dose of :whipped:

to finish the library.

With the exception of Turfan all of the :whipped:

are only for one pop :cry:

so we're going to have a lot of unhappy cities. I suspect research will have to go down to 10% for a while.

The next question is what I should build in all those cities? Corinth can go back to the granary. Colosseum is one option to get some

. Alternatively I could build galleys. Any thoughts?

The-Hawk · Aug 23, 2007

Looking good... excellent progress continues. :goodjob:

My only concern... We might be thin in Corinth and probably have more units than we need to take Athens (remember, the cats can ultimately attack too). I would consider moving a couple of the wounded soldiers near Athens back to Corinth. They are going to take a while to heal anyhow (since we have no medic in the stack). A side benefit is our supply cost will drop a little.

With regards to next builds... since nobody will make peace, I am inclined to build more military and take the war to the next AI. No reason to be shy. I'm thinking we might have a go at Cyrus, although he is pretty close to us in power. Maybe we should spank Togu first. My only concern is we don't have a tech advantage so this might be a slugfest. Cats will help a lot.

Christianity in Athens is a good thing. We won't even need to move our first GP to build a shrine. I think our first build in Athens is a monestary to spam missionaries. If we ultimately can spread Confusianism from a 2nd shrine in Corinth as well, all the better.

By the way, forgot to mention it before. I noticed near the end of my turns that Alex had a GP in Athens. I suspect he lightbulbed Christianity.

One other observation. I was checking to see if anyone would negotiate peace, noticed Cyrus can trade money. Apparently he is teching along pretty nicely.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 24, 2007

The-Hawk said:
I would consider moving a couple of the wounded soldiers near Athens back to Corinth. They are going to take a while to heal anyhow (since we have no medic in the stack).

Good point. I notice that we have a medic axe hanging around in Corinth so I'll probably swap the two wounded axes for the medic axe.

The-Hawk said:
With regards to next builds... since nobody will make peace, I am inclined to build more military and take the war to the next AI. No reason to be shy. I'm thinking we might have a go at Cyrus, although he is pretty close to us in power. Maybe we should spank Togu first. My only concern is we don't have a tech advantage so this might be a slugfest. Cats will help a lot.

It's the cost factor that I wonder about. The :whipped:

won't help our economy too much. Adding more units will make things worse. That's why I was thinking more of infrastructure builds for a while. I know the idea of galleys goes against that but sinking AI galleys balances out the cost.

The-Hawk said:
One other observation. I was checking to see if anyone would negotiate peace, noticed Cyrus can trade money. Apparently he is teching along pretty nicely.

Yes Cyrus is likely to be a big PITA. Fortunately he doesn't like Izzy or Toku. As far as future victims are concerned I would be inclined to head for Toku initially. There's still the question of what we do with Sally.

Harbourboy · Aug 24, 2007

Nice work Pariah. Well done on resolving all those technical difficulties. I just bought Beyond the Sword, so don't be surprised if I stuff something up on my PC after I install it.

Pariah · Aug 24, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
There's still the question of what we do with Sally.

Let's get rid of him as soon as we've finished with Alex. At least, we should capture the cities he's built on our home island - remove the looming threat at our backs. The Arabs might be weak right now... but if we let them be long enough, that may change.

And thanks for all the compliments. geezers.

drhirsch · Aug 24, 2007

I agree, we do need to deal with sally soon, before his cities get annoying.

But we badly need CoL, more than ever. If we build additional military after the cats, we probably won't be able to pay for it, our sience will slow down to a crawl and cyrus might runaway.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 24, 2007

I will probably play tomorrow morning ~ 12 hours. I agree with drhirsch that we should get CoL before Calendar. Not least because Calendar obsoletes both obelisks and Stonehenge. Since Athens has Stonehenge it would be nice to get some mileage out of it. The bad news is that CoL is 50 turns at our current research rate.

Looking at the save it's unfortunate that both Besh & Corinth do not have barracks so the cats won't be quite as promoted as I might have hoped. :cry:

At least that solves what to build in Besh next.

The-Hawk · Aug 24, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
I agree with drhirsch that we should get CoL before Calendar. Not least because Calendar obsoletes both obelisks and Stonehenge. Since Athens has Stonehenge it would be nice to get some mileage out of it. The bad news is that CoL is 50 turns at our current research rate.

I think the biggest use for Henge is the GP points (which we still get after it obsoletes). However, I'm OK with CoL next. As drhirsch points out, the lack of courthouses is stunting our warmongering. Certainly no point in keeping Henge if we can't capture any more cities

.

Harbourboy · Aug 25, 2007

Are we doing really badly, or was it just a really tricky start and we're doing as well as can be expected?

Sam_Yeager · Aug 25, 2007

Harbourboy said:
Are we doing really badly, or was it just a really tricky start and we're doing as well as can be expected?

Looking at the stats for the other teams up to or beyond our date we seem to be about middling although we may fall behind the curve after my turnset.

I've played but I'm preoccupied with a recalcitrant fence post that won't come out so I'll post the turnset in a few hours.

The-Hawk · Aug 25, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
I've played but I'm preoccupied with a recalcitrant fence post that won't come out so I'll post the turnset in a few hours.

catapults work well for loosening stubborn earthworks.... or maybe dynamite

Sam_Yeager · Aug 25, 2007

Summary 470 AD - 650 AD
Switched to CoL but research is dire. Cultural defence at Athens is nearly gone. We should be able to attack in a couple of turns. Attacks by Sally and Qin fought off. Sunk a Cyrus galley as well. Played some extra turns to even up the number. Hope that's OK.

Turn 198 - 470 AD

The tyrant looked at his advisors in dismay. "You're building all but one catapult in cities without barracks and they won't be ready for several years? The one city that has a barracks is miles away from the action! Whip Beshbalik and Corinth immediately. Since there's no galley near enough to transport Beshbalik's cat you had better whip Old Sarai as well to get me a galley." The tyrant was on a roll now and he was fed up with those ungrateful peasants in Turfan. "Oh and whip that library at Turfan as well. Don't they know there's a war on?" Because the tyrant knew the whipping would affect research he ordered it reduced to 20%. He also decided that Code of Laws might be helpful.

IBT: Spies reported that Cyrus had completed the Chichen Itza wonder. The tyrant gnashed his teeth in anger. The Athens attack force reported that Alex had another archer.

Turn 199 - 485 AD
The tyrant decided that a spear to counter enemy mounted units would be helpfuL so Turfan started training one. Old Sarai started work on a granary. It was made quite plain to Beshbalik that a barracks was required. The cat from Beshbalik heads towards Old Sarai. A galley belonging to Qin the chinese devil stayed in the vicinity of Corinth. Corinth decided not to risk sending out the cat. A pair of galleys to the south of Athens were dispatched to deal with this interloper. The impact of the whipping forces research to 0%.

Turn 200 - 500 AD
The galley to the south of the homeland moved to block Saladin's naval route. Beshbalik's cat embarked in the galley and headed towards Athens

IBT: A bedraggled surivor brought news of the destruction of the southern galley. The tyrant's advisors take pains to avoid his company.

Turn 201 - 515 AD
The tyrant was cheered up somewhat when it appeared that he was the third most powerful nation.

Spoiler :

The greeks offered a peace treaty. The tyrant rejected it out of hand.

Spoiler :

Galleys with military units from both Cyrus and Qin appeared near Corinth. The Cyrus galley was sunk without loss by the gallant forces of the tyrant.

IBT: A chinese galley attacks our gallant galleys by Corinth and loses. The remainder of the chinese galleys disembark their units and head north.

Spoiler :

Turn 202 - 530 AD
Corinth's worker shelters in the city. It's galley moves out to the water in case the city falls.

IBT: With great tactical acumen Qin splits his forces. :rolleyes:

Spoiler :

Turn 203 - 545 AD
Corinth's cat attacks Qin's HA. Athough defeated, the HA is significantly weakened. Turfan starts a galley to avoid finishing the spear. Research raised to 10%.

IBT: Qin's sword loses to an axe in Corinth.

The evil arabs lands an axe and a chariot by Ning-hsia.

Turn 204 - 560 AD AD
The wounded HA by Corinth is dispatched by the medic axe. :crazyeye:

IBT: One of Qin's remaining HAs heads towards Corinth.

Turn 205 - 575 AD
Our brave keshik kills Saladin's chariot by Ning-hsia.

IBT: Saladin's axe attacks Ning-hsia without success. Alexander expends an archer against the Athen's liberation force. Qin's HA moves away from Corinth.

Turn 206 - 590 AD
Ning-hsia completes a sword and resumes working on a library.

IBT: Maygar falls to Qin's forces.

Turn 207 - 605 AD
Civ keeps minimising whenever I try to exit a city screen. Have to kill it and reboot PC. Reload from latest save and redo actions. Fortunately there weren't that many.

IBT: Phoenician falls to Toku.

Turn 208 - 620 AD
Corinth completes the granary and starts on a monastery. Qin HA approaches Corinth.

IBT: Qin's HA assault on Corinth ends in failure.

Turn 209 - 635 AD
The cat by Athens continues to reduce the cultural defence.

Turn 210 - 650 AD
Athen's cultural defence is nearly gone.

Spoiler :

EDIT: Toku has founded a city not too far from Corinth to the east so we may be having vistors shortly.

Spoiler Game autolog :

Spoiler SGOTM log :

Sam_Yeager · Aug 25, 2007

Roster

Sam - Just played
drhirsch - UP
Harbourboy - on deck
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah

AgedOne · Aug 25, 2007

A busy turnset, Sam_Yeager!
Things are happening in all directions, it seems.
The 0% tech is the scary part. How close are we to strike action? Shouldn't be too many turns before the unhappiness diminishes as the locals begin to forget the pain of the tyrant's whip.
Taking Athens is going to give us a boost, and also a further maintenance hit.
If we lose a few units taking it, it might not be a bad thing.

PS. I hope the battle of the fence post went victoriously.

The-Hawk · Aug 25, 2007

Wow, we dodged a bullet :eek:

. If Qin hadn't split forces, or if Cyrus beat our galley and landed troops, we'd have lost Corinth. At this point, we might as well finish Athens before we move troops to Corinth, but we need to get a couple of more troops over there quickly. As expected, Corinth is drawing a crowd.

Its pretty clear we need to get CoL finished asap. This means commerce over production. To that end, I'd suggest the following micromanagement:

- Beshbalik. Move citizens from rice and plains cottage to the two grasslands cottages (+3 g, -1h).
- Turfan. Move citizens from stone and jungle dyes to clams and a coastal tile. Next turn it will grow one pop, work another coastal tile. (+4g, -4h).
- Old Sarai. Move from iron to coastal tile (+2g, -5 h).
- Corinth. Move from forest to fish. Will grow in 2 turns, work another coast (+4g, -2h).

If we make all these changes, after one turn (pop growth) we can run 30% at a small surplus. CoL is then less than 40 turns and gold from Athens will speed that even faster.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 25, 2007

The-Hawk said:
Its pretty clear we need to get CoL finished asap. This means commerce over production. To that end, I'd suggest the following micromanagement:

- Beshbalik. Move citizens from rice and plains cottage to the two grasslands cottages (+3 g, -1h).
- Turfan. Move citizens from stone and jungle dyes to clams and a coastal tile. Next turn it will grow one pop, work another coastal tile. (+4g, -4h).
- Old Sarai. Move from iron to coastal tile (+2g, -5 h).
- Corinth. Move from forest to fish. Will grow in 2 turns, work another coast (+4g, -2h).

If we make all these changes, after one turn (pop growth) we can run 30% at a small surplus. CoL is then less than 40 turns and gold from Athens will speed that even faster.

The problem is that WW seems to scale with city size IMHO. In addition a number of those cities have also got whip unhappiness. I haven't got the game open but I believe the result of growing cities will be that we end up with more unhappiness, less pop working and not necessarily more :gold:

. I'm happy to be proved wrong of course.

EDIT: This post details the calculations for WW in v1.61. Since the formula includes pop it looks like I am correct about WW scaling with city size. OTOH we should get a bit of a reduction in WW when Alex goes to meet his maker.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 25, 2007

The-Hawk said:
catapults work well for loosening stubborn earthworks.... or maybe dynamite

If only; it was a matter of getting the base of the post out of a 3"x3" hole in concrete right next to the neighbour's mini conservatory. The wood was absolutely jammed in. :mad:

AgedOne said:
PS. I hope the battle of the fence post went victoriously.

Got there in the end. Had to chisel out the wood. Then the fun part was getting the replacement post in the hole. I'm going to have a :beer:

in a moment to recover.

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