SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[AgedOne]

You're right.
I took HB's question like a waiter asking me what I would like to order.
Instead, I should have been thinking "Eat now, or kill Shaka first"?
If we do our killing before mealtime, there might not be any food left.

Hmm. Analogy time over, before I get too hungry.

Should we actually kill Shaka? If we don't, we're stuck with the land that we can see - our place, plus the big dog-bone-shaped island. It's not great. Shaka's land is probably worth having.

We do need to know if there's anyone else on this land besides us two.

If we built up our forces and went for the kill, then we would have to do it with enough power to push him over quickly. It would take some time to build a decisive force, with just 2 cities doing the building. We would certainly need cats (or those nice ballista elephants!) to take him down.

It's a big dilemma.
Kill Shaka and miss out on several early-ish wonders.
Leave him and get stuck with less-than-fabulous land.
The aim of the game is to get the best wonder-points to turns ratio.

I'm getting nowhere trying to make a choice, here.

NB. For reference, Yas could build the Mids in 21 turns if we max'ed production there.
That's still a long while not to be building military.

 

[Misotu]

@AgedOne Yes, I think it is much too long not to be building military in this situation. I think we're committed down the military route. Shaka is a Nasty Neighbour - he has to go.

We can't expect to get all the early Wonders - we may just have to find out where they are and see if we can capture a few, later on. (Much later on )

For now, with Yas, we can knock out half-a dozen catapults in almost no time. Heavens, we can knock out 3 axes in the next 4 turns! Those cats will be done in a trice, we take Shaka out and then it's time to really think hard about Wonders, stone, marble etc etc.

The AI doesn't build the Parthenon particularly early in my experience, so I think that one is still in, though not in Yas or our GP farm obviously. Maybe Iron City - if it actually has iron, that is We've got a few forests can be chopped, and a few mines can be built there. I'd be surprised if we could get the Pyramids, nice though that would be. The Great Library should be on. Hanging Gardens should be on, probably. I mention the Gardens only because it generates an engineer.

In the meantime, I think we have to just focus on knocking Shaka out in as few turns as possible.

 

[erikthecelt]

We have an objective, remove Shaka from his current plane of existence. He is building and has been building his empire all along. We should be building nothing but units until we have rid the world of his pestilent presence. When we have eliminated Shaka there is a religious freak out there who has already built a second shrine in his capital (Ramses or Asoka is my guess).

@Misotu - our score is relatively low because we have gone for an early military build, the other teams are building cities still. Misfits built a wonder but not the extra library, they have less culture and more power. One extra city would make sense.

Yas - fire those scientists now. It should be getting us a prophet. The axe and spear should join at the choke point then immediately move into Shaka's territory.

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, here is my plan.

Overall objective: build military so one of you can deShakatize the world.

City MM:

• As Misotu suggests, lose the 2 scientists in Yas, work gold, cow, copper, fish [actually clams] and both mines.
• Once construction is done, we could move the clam guy to a forest hill. I think we will want two hammers vs. two gold to speed our military build up. It will stop growth, but saves us from needing to camp the phants for a bit. Worker can build road to choke point right away. Then he comes back and camps phants and we move the citizen back to clams. Thoughts on this?
• Running an extra scientist in Hari for exactly 4 turns. When Construction is finished, will continue to run Sci Specs until we pop a GS. Then they both start to work mines. (This has the side benefit of allowing Yas to pop a prophet for our shrine.)

Builds:

• Yaso will build axemen and maybe one more spear until construction is in. Then cats.
• Misotu recommends stopping barracks in Hari to continue the spear. However, I think we should finish the barracks (it is almost half built). Once barracks is done, then finish the spear. Then cats. Any other votes on this decision?

Worker actions:

• Worker 1: Road to ivory. If we decide to let Yaso grow, then he will camp the phants. Otherwise he will road to choke point.
• Worker 2: I think worker 2 needs to work Hari. Once the GS pops, we will need both mines. Once both are built, he will help road to choke-point.

Military:

• Erik is suggesting we move the axe and spear into Shaka territory immediately. I’m wondering if we shouldn’t leave them on the choke point until we have more military. Erik, what is your plan for them? Are you thinking we might pillage the horsies and/or explore? Or just camp on a hill and try to burn shaka units? I'm a little worried they will get ground down (wounded and not able to recover fast enough.)
• As more units are built, they will head west.
• Once the first axe and spear are near shaka, I think the warrior at the choke point should go NE and fogbust. No reason to allow barbs when we have workers trying to road.

Tech:

• Follow Construction with Sailing, then Agri, then Pottery. I don’t think we need Pottery right away, our workers are too busy. Might as well get the beaker saving from Agri.

Misc:

• GS will head to Yaso and build an academy.
• Workboat heads for southern Shaka coast to scout. Slight risk we lose him, but at least then we know Shaka has galleys...

 

[Misotu]

Yup, looks good Do you not want to use the missionary to allow Yas to grow & work fish? That way we get even more hammers?

No strong feelings either way. Go for it!

Edited to add: Actually, on second thoughts, I probably incline more towards using the missionary for the extra pop. We should look at Monotheism pretty soon for the 25% wonder build boost, and that will enable Hari to build the odd missionary later for our new cities. It would have been nice to get free spread, but I think perhaps the early extra pop in Yas is more valuable?

Also agree we should have one more spear. That was kind of why I suggested switching in Hari, but of course the spear there won't happen soon enough.

Also, when we get a breather from building units, I'd like to see a quick monastery in Yas for the 10% research boost plus a temple - one extra pop which we can then run as a priest for hammer, income and a faster Great Prophet ...

I see Thrallia is up after The-Hawk. Hope he's a serious mongerer

 

[The-Hawk]

Yes, I meant to raise the question about the missionary when i posted my plan. My first reaction was to save him for a future city (probably marble city) that will need a border expansion. However, the option of growing Yas is a good one, made better by Bureacracy. If we are planning to go Mono before we head for Lit (or if we get a monestary in), we might as well use him in Yas. Overall, I'm on the fence, let's see if there are other opinions.

Also, I'm rethinking sending the warrior to fog bust. We should have a steady stream of units running down the road towards Shaka. It might be nice to have the odd barbie warrior show up to train them. A poorly timed barb appearance might cost us a worker turn during the road building period, but after that is should be pretty safe.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Once construction is done, we could move the clam guy to a forest hill. I think we will want two hammers vs. two gold to speed our military build up. It will stop growth, but saves us from needing to camp the phants for a bit.

If you're happy to MM then it might be worth working the hill forest instead. Yas will starve but as long as you don't let it run out of food we get the extra 2 3 to speed up military units.

Misotu recommends stopping barracks in Hari to continue the spear. However, I think we should finish the barracks (it is almost half built). Once barracks is done, then finish the spear. Then cats. Any other votes on this decision?

I would like to hear your reasoning behind this suggestion. At present the barracks will take 14 turns as against 12 turns for the spear. Either way neither will be finished during your turnset assuming we are now playing 10(ish) turns. That said, I realise that we've invested 22 :hammers into the barracks. TBH I think it's worth building a spear next in Yas as the spear in Hari is likely to built too late to be of any real use.

Do you not want to use the missionary to allow Yas to grow & work fish?

I must admit I'm tempted to save him for one of our future conquered cities. OTOH we are expansive so that is not such a problem.

 

[The-Hawk]

I would like to hear your reasoning behind this suggestion. At present the barracks will take 14 turns as against 12 turns for the spear. Either way neither will be finished during your turnset assuming we are now playing 10(ish) turns. That said, I realise that we've invested 22 :hammers into the barracks. TBH I think it's worth building a spear next in Yas as the spear in Hari is likely to built too late to be of any real use.

I agree with your last sentence. Yas needs to build a spear.

IIRC we are 7-8 turns from popping the GS. Once that happens, we work the mines which will speed up prod. At that point, probably only 2-3 turns (I haven't done the math) to finish the barracks. Of course, that also means we are 2-3 turns from finishing the spear too. Since he will most likely end up as a city MP, he really doesn't need a promotion (so it doesn't matter if he is before the barracks). However, before we start building cats in Hari, we should get the barracks done. As Erik pointed out, cats with CR1 are all the better.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I
IIRC we are 7-8 turns from popping the GS. Once that happens, we work the mines which will speed up prod. At that point, probably only 2-3 turns (I haven't done the math) to finish the barracks. Of course, that also means we are 2-3 turns from finishing the spear too. Since he will most likely end up as a city MP, he really doesn't need a promotion (so it doesn't matter if he is before the barracks). However, before we start building cats in Hari, we should get the barracks done. As Erik pointed out, cats with CR1 are all the better.

Put that way finishing the barracks before the spear sounds good.

 

[Misotu]

Yes, I meant to raise the question about the missionary when i posted my plan. My first reaction was to save him for a future city (probably marble city) that will need a border expansion. However, the option of growing Yas is a good one, made better by Bureacracy. If we are planning to go Mono before we head for Lit (or if we get a monestary in), we might as well use him in Yas. Overall, I'm on the fence, let's see if there are other opinions.

Good points. Although I don't think we need to save the missionary for border expansion - we are creative so those borders expand pretty fast. If we really need the expansion super-fast, I suppose we could run an artist for a couple of turns I think we should go Mono before going for Lit - it's just a few turns, there are other Wonders available now & if nothing else it'll speed other buildings in Yas or Hari. Really think we should use the missionary for Yas.

 

[The-Hawk]

we are creative

Oops, I forgot this completely . Yes, we should use the missionary in Yas for sure. It will be a prime wonder location, needs to be Confus.

 

[erikthecelt]

The spear/axe combo is for pillaging/exploring. Shaka will not attack it unless he has overwhelming odds - not likely. If we can find his cities we might be able to speed up the attack and not wander around looking for him. It's possible a galley bridge in the north would shave two or three movement turns for the reinforcements.

I agree with the missionary, barracks and rest of the plan. GO Hawk!

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, there are four of us simultaneously active in the GOTM forum (myself, Erik, AgedOne, Sam), and Misotu was just on earlier. Maybe we should drop "Geezers" and rename ourselves "Team Get a Life".

Yes a little exploring would be good. If possible, I'd like to unhook his horsies too.

 

[Misotu]

Maybe we should drop "Geezers" and rename ourselves "Team Get a Life".

If it makes you feel any better, there are teams who have quite a few more posts per turn played than we do

Yes a little exploring would be good. If possible, I'd like to unhook his horsies too.

Me too, esp. since we're majoring on axes, rather than swords. As erikthecelt pointed out, axes don't do too well against chariots in the field Still, our spears should take care of that ...

On another question ... I think the immediate objective is to get the attack force - around 4+ axes, 2 spears & 6+ cats built and mustered at the choke point. Would it be worth you playing on just a few turns to get that job done? We're still very early game - and General Thrallia hasn't been around for a while. He might need some time to get up to speed and set up his Field HQ

Are you planning to play the turns tonight The-Hawk?

 

[erikthecelt]

We should probably skip Thrallia and let Aged-One play the next turn set. He's been AWOL for some time now.

 

[Misotu]

I must say, I agree. Supreme Commander AgedOne should step in and Do The Job. I hear they produce crack military in the Basingstoke area

What about The-Hawk playing a few extra turns to get the squad mustered at the choke point before handing over? The launch of the attack shouldn't be split over a couple of turn-sets ...

 

[The-Hawk]

Yes, I'll play tonight. This way, when all the Europeans wake up, you can begin discussing next turnset. I'll play until we have a reasonable army in the field. I'll also send in the axe and spear to scout... along with pillaging the horses, we need more information so we can decide which cities to keep. I plan to promote both to combat 1. This fits their secondary mission of attriting Shaka units, more important, we want a couple of medics for big attack.

I agree we should probably skip Thrallia... his studies tend to pull him away at times (I vaguely remember those days ). Once he is able to re-engage, he can take his time getting back up to speed, then jump in when he is ready.

 

[markh]

I am fine with Hawk playing until we have the army in the field. Go, get that Shakaboy.

 

[Harbourboy]

We now have the most posts, so Team Get a Life is a good subtitle for us. Go The-Hawk!

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Yes, I'll play tonight. This way, when all the Europeans wake up, you can begin discussing next turnset. I'll play until we have a reasonable army in the field. I'll also send in the axe and spear to scout... along with pillaging the horses, we need more information so we can decide which cities to keep.

Looking forward to the results

I agree we should probably skip Thrallia... his studies tend to pull him away at times

I noticed he hadn't visited CFC for a while never mind this thread. Presumably his studies have got him by the b***s as you say.