SGOTM 10 - Unusual Suspects

[Yamps]

Of course when I suggested the plan I had constitution in mind for representation, at the end not going for constitution made the plan dubious. It has been proved however that techs on the path to sci method for a more ambitious liberialism was the way to go.
Mind you, Taj gave us an extra golden age that was usefull to accelerate things later on.

Nationalism and Constitution weren't really needed in this game, that's a big point against that path. Regarding Liberalism, things need to fall in nicely...For example, I've replayed a bit taking Bombay spot but didn't choke Gandhi. Some delays in cottaging for more REX and no early gold caused Gandhi to win Liberalism with the Nationalism path. We traded for Education, but there's no real guarantee that would happen in each attempt. Then you also have the barbs (!) to worry about when you consider other things. MW had 3 big cities for 5 GS in their GE golden age, but maybe that Education trade and Communism sling had some luck as well? I wonder when exactly did barbs win the Lib race in Xteam's game, MW had a somewhat later Liberalism date.

The slavery, serfdom, slavery plan is definnatelly the best plan for fast rex and it has been tested extensivelly in multiplayer.

The trick is to improve food first and then do a mass chop while building wealth, science or culture in capital so that the chops are stored. Then make 1 turn settler without stopping growth and when chops ready switch back to slavery.

Capital in place in this situation was ideal for this plan, with more food and most importantly more chops and closer worker actions.

Hmm, why didn't we switch to slavery then? The switch happened too late at the end of our Taj GA... Well, at least the next game won't start while summer vacations are on so we'll be able to discuss these things more effectively.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I will do a test replaying the game with constitution path and settling in place, without taking bombay spot or declaring on Ghandi to see how it fares out.

Reagrding slavery...we didn't? Why?

 

[Yamps]

I have no idea, I was out of town for two weeks then...Wasn't that your session, Indiansmoke?

Going for Constitution might be viable, but you still need to rex hard to be able to get 5 big cities asap for Oxford. At the same time cities should be big to get the most out of the GA. Then to make Oxford useful, you have to make sure you actually have the gold to keep the slider up. It's interesting to note how little infrastructure whipping MW did and how they developed 'Bombay'. That's a floodplains city made for cottaging, but they first farmed it and then they built workshops. It's their HE city actually! Everything for the capital to support the slider after Oxford. I wonder if they did any calculations regarding that... Bombay only gave them 1 GS, I'm not convinced that cottages wouldn't have been better. Capital for sure could have used the infrastructure whips. We'll need some way to determine the right ratio between Caste and Slavery for the next game, this was key here.

Anyway, I don't think that the extra Representation beakers can possibly make up for the investment gone into the wrong techs. Maybe for some other game, but not here. Maybe we should try some gauntlet to test these theories?

 

[Indiansmoke]

I have no idea, I was out of town for two weeks then...Wasn't that your session, Indiansmoke?

Going for Constitution might be viable, but you still need to rex hard to be able to get 5 big cities asap for Oxford. At the same time cities should be big to get the most out of the GA. Then to make Oxford useful, you have to make sure you actually have the gold to keep the slider up. It's interesting to note how little infrastructure whipping MW did and how they developed 'Bombay'. That's a floodplains city made for cottaging, but they first farmed it and then they built workshops. It's their HE city actually! Everything for the capital to support the slider after Oxford. I wonder if they did any calculations regarding that... Bombay only gave them 1 GS, I'm not convinced that cottages wouldn't have been better. Capital for sure could have used the infrastructure whips. We'll need some way to determine the right ratio between Caste and Slavery for the next game, this was key here.

Anyway, I don't think that the extra Representation beakers can possibly make up for the investment gone into the wrong techs. Maybe for some other game, but not here. Maybe we should try some gauntlet to test these theories?

Was it? I cannot remember....in any case we would not have slaved our precious gold mines would we

 

[kcd_swede]

Bronze update:

OSS has passed our finish date!


Smurkz are at 1914AD with a lot to go... their most optimistic estimates are 25 turns (1939AD). But since we did the final warring faster than we expected at that point, we need to watch this.

This is nice.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Looks like we have chances for a bronze after all

Tried replaying the game a bit and I must say we missed big on not switching back to slavery after serfdom. I was able to have 7 cities settled by 1530, land mostly improved and have things like libraries build as well.

Tech path was not that important...even a big tech like communism from liberialism does not make that much big difference in finish...not even war with Ghandi I feel was as important (after we missed bombay spot) Rexing and privateers were most importnat misses I feel.

 

[Yamps]

@IS

Getting Roosevelt to Friendly asap was also important, although there's a luck factor on what he'll research. Regarding the tech path, Steel from Liberalism might be interesting too, Chemistry can be bulbed if Gunpowder is known after PP.

What's not clear to me is the economy type. Also the balance between REX and infrastructure whipping if you go with cottages. (I'm inclined to think that 5 cities with whipped infrastructure are stronger than 7 without.) I've tried the cottage approach, but didn't get Roosevelt Friendly before Liberalism. I'll see how it plays out, I have faith in those cottages.

Not choking Gandhi and stealing his workers was a big mistake too. It's easy to do it and I also got a WII mace along the way which his workers can't see, total brutality...

@kcd_swede

XCal has me worried with his ideas and estimates, speaking of things like all around drafting and simultaneous nuclear strikes...>.>

 

[Indiansmoke]

@IS

Getting Roosevelt to Friendly asap was also important, although there's a luck factor on what he'll research. Regarding the tech path, Steel from Liberalism might be interesting too, Chemistry can be bulbed if Gunpowder is known after PP.

What's not clear to me is the economy type. Also the balance between REX and infrastructure whipping if you go with cottages. (I'm inclined to think that 5 cities with whipped infrastructure are stronger than 7 without.) I've tried the cottage approach, but didn't get Roosevelt Friendly before Liberalism. I'll see how it plays out, I have faith in those cottages.

Not choking Gandhi and stealing his workers was a big mistake too. It's easy to do it and I also got a WII mace along the way which his workers can't see, total brutality...

@kcd_swede

XCal has me worried with his ideas and estimates, speaking of things like all around drafting and simultaneous nuclear strikes...>.>

Roosevelt to friendly was important yes...chocking ghandi without getting Bombay I still don't see the point. In my test I was able to have 7 cities when Ghandi was still in 2 cities! ie surrounding him and claiming all settling spots on our island.

 

[kcd_swede]

@kcd_swede

XCal has me worried with his ideas and estimates, speaking of things like all around drafting and simultaneous nuclear strikes...>.>

They'll have to capture 43 cities in the next 18 turns to beat us. At present (1914AD) they have 7 tactical nukes, 20 cossacks, 10 SAM, and a pair of rifles. Tons of destroyers but zero subs (with 1 turn to radio).

If they manage to beat us from there I can only be astonished as I congratulate them.

 

[Indiansmoke]

They'll have to capture 43 cities in the next 18 turns to beat us. At present (1914AD) they have 7 tactical nukes, 20 cossacks, 10 SAM, and a pair of rifles. Tons of destroyers but zero subs (with 1 turn to radio).

If they manage to beat us from there I can only be astonished as I congratulate them.

I would be astonished too...They need to produce 36 nukes and some units and move them in position...sounds very impropable.

 

[Yamps]

Roosevelt to friendly was important yes...chocking ghandi without getting Bombay I still don't see the point. In my test I was able to have 7 cities when Ghandi was still in 2 cities! ie surrounding him and claiming all settling spots on our island.

The point is ~10 more workers in my replay game and also just 2 cities to nuke. You can delay settling some weaker spots on the island in favor to other things; Liberalism race also gets prolonged. Note that Frederiksberg said that barbs won it in Xteam's game! Other AIs must have been really backward there...

EDIT: I took the Bombay spot there. Even without it, I think that every team attacking Gandhi had benefited. More backward world, more workers and less chances for Gandhi to spread out with galleys. Of course, it's important not to commit too much resources while doing this. It takes some care, but it's doable since AI is pretty inept to handle it.


@Smurkz

I haven't looked at their saves lately, but they could whip down everything instantly like we did, right? They have a ton of food from Sushi for the Kremlin whip and culture slider could be used to control the unhappiness. Oh well, let's hope they won't be too effective with this.

 

[Ronnie1]

Well played guys!

We had very serious problems early this game, and our results suffered terribly.

 

[Yamps]

Thanks! What happened, did Gandhi DoW you or did you lose a city to barbs? We had a scary moment, upgrading a warrior to mace when barbs landed near our capital...

 

[Ronnie1]

I played the 1st set, saw Gandhi's Explorer, and didn't stop to evaluate ALL the options including a DOW on him to slow him down. We then lost city #3 on the SE coast to barbs naval invasion.

 

[Yamps]

Umm yes, I was playing the first set as well. There was a pause, but we still didn't handle the situation correctly... Nah, better luck in the next game. Congrats on your win and finishing this on time! I believe that MW is the only team that took that central spot from Gandhi. I've examined their saves, you can see my notes on their game here: MW game

 

[beestar]

Actually, I think Maple Sporks also took the central site ... but lost it to a Gandhi counterattack later (hence the surprising dip in their score in the midgame). Can't find the link right now.

Waiting for Smurkz to finish ... speaking for Who Dat, we need them to be slower than 1947AD ...

 

[classical_hero]

Great Game. i have been trying to follow this, but I just don't have the time for this. I am too much of MP player for such things. I certainly will follow how things go in this team, but i just won't be able to join any future games.

 

[SteelHorse]

I would be astonished too...They need to produce 36 nukes and some units and move them in position...sounds very impropable.

Yup - I just took a look, i think Smurkz will struggle to break 1940. I think we are good for bronze.

That said, we were a looooooong way from second. And Xteam made the same settle error we did without having the Yamps map. Shame on us. And had the two Russian teams completed - we would likely be 5th.

Rereading our thread is a bit painful. We just blew through, with nearly zero discussion, the pivotal period of meeting Gandhi and determining where to settle. Not sure how we "learn from that'. Even before there was discussion on looking west.

We did discuss warring with Gandhi at length and still made the wrong decision IMO. The downfall with this was not the early impact as we argued, but the longer term city spread that Gandhi had to the islands. While we did trade with Gandhi a lot, we could have picked another AI.

That said I think we did have some very good stretches of good play. Like last game, the finish was especially strong. I am very impressed with the last couple of turnsets. Very well done IS and Yamps. I think we also got lucky at points.

I especially like reading the Xteam analysis. They seem to avoid the pitfalls we have of falling back on tried and tested techniques. They challenge everything. And I especially like their tech-ing purity, another area we struggle.

Any thoughts on how we can improve our overall decision making.

 

[SteelHorse]

@classical_hero - take good care - I wish you well.

 

[Yamps]

I haven't read through XTeam's thread, but I remember enjoying their great analysis from previous games. I wish they'd write a summary to save me some time digging through the saves and replay logs...there's still things to learn about this game. It takes practice, commitment and a lot of team effort to get things right, some things we were right about and some were mistakes. That's how it goes I guess, we just have to keep the effort. Playing games like GOTM, Immortal university, cookbooks, etc. would be useful too. It helps when you see how other players approached the same game.

All things considering, I think we did fairly well. Although perhaps even surprisingly well, considering all the we had. This only show that most teams are having similar problems, these games are pretty tough.


@classical_hero

Yes, these games take a lot of time...If I weren't really eager about the next game, I think I'd took a nice break as well. Sorry for jumping on you a while back, tough day and too much commitment on this crazy game. Take care and have some fun blasting people in MP!