SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Given the requests for later turn sets, how about:

Roster:
ShannonCT - UP
leif - On Deck
Cactus Pete
rrau
Frederiksburg
Mad Professor
Grover22 - Hope you're ready to take a set?

PaulisKhan - Just moved and is without computer. For now...

I agree with all the moves except the Worker move to the west. I think we need to get the Capitol's food supply cranked up as soon as possible in order to begin getting settlers rushed.

I did pop-rush an early worker in our second city and the overflow was useful in getting a Work Boat out quickly too.

EDIT - Alan posted about taking care to make sure we don't confuse Test Games with the real thing. As we have been running our test games in BUFFY, please be alert to which save is the real thing and which are from testing.

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, I can take the first set. I think we should move the LBs northeast and southwest and the explorer southeast before settling. Agree that we don't need to move the worker before settling. If everyone is in agreement, I will do this later today.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, I can take the first set. I think we should move the LBs northeast and southwest and the explorer southeast before settling. Agree that we don't need to move the worker before settling. If everyone is in agreement, I will do this later today.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"OR was good because we could build Missionaries and use them to help expand our borders. Although I built Theaters to do so." At the beginning of my game (and I've only played the beginning), religion spreads without misionaries and city expansion was not a problem. BTW, in discussing whether four civs should be switched to initially, I neglected to take into consideration the cost in GPT of the two aditional ones early when they aren't needed. Now I'm not at all sure that's the thing to do. Going to look at it again

"Just been gazing at the starting screen shot. The northern longbow could move NE, the explorer two SE onto the eastern gold hill, and the southern longbow could move SW and we'd have a much better view. The worker could even go onto the western elephant if we wanted to use a worker turn that way, and if we're not going to settle instantly, that would be a good use of the worker turn. A screen shot when those woves have been made would be very helpful I think."
Do not like moving the worker. He can begin chopping the initial turn. As is the case for Civics, chopping can be done for non-existent cities, and immediately chopping likely means getting something built a turn earlier.

Don't care where you put me in the roster, as long as I get to play before 1485BC.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Well everybody seems to be up and at 'em this morning. My last note is largely redundant. Should have refreshed.

Would ask SCT not to switch civics until after unit moves and discussion.

(And will try to utilize the nonsense language.)

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we have to be very careful about taking on a religion. Nearly all the wars get going because of the religious divisions between the civs. I played without taking on a religion. I think we should consider how this will affect our ability to trade and maintain relations. If we take a religion, it ought to be another civ's that we think, either by geography or by research rate, will benefit us.

OR was good because we could build Missionaries and use them to help expand our borders. Although I built Theaters to do so.

If we are not adopting a religion I doubt that our hammers are well spent on missionaries right now. Unless we go all in and try to convert some of the AI to our religion. The main drawback from adopting a religion are the increased difficulties with tech trading. It can be circumvented to some extent by swapping between religions. If we are going to do extensive bulbing of techs doubling the GPP rate is very attractive so it may be worth to find a path that allows for Pacifism.

OK, I can take the first set. I think we should move the LBs northeast and southwest and the explorer southeast before settling. Agree that we don't need to move the worker before settling. If everyone is in agreement, I will do this later today.

Go ahead!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Fred, you were right! Very cool. Just tested with SCT's game again and by starting both cities off building workers was able to get three(3) of them out by 1320 (just 7 turns into the game, I think), so that can now work with 4 workers. Proceeded as follows: Began chopping in place as changed civics and then founded two cities. Put a Moscow citizen on the tile being chopped and, after the chop came in, a worker was produced in 1310 (thanks to Bureaucracy) with overflow. Using that overflow, I whipped a worker in Moscow the next turn that was completed in 1320. Meantime, by working the clams and ivory in Pete, I got enough hammers into a worker to whip one there in 1310, completed in 1315. This is powerful.

Probably wrong too about not changing all four civics initially, but still looking at that.

 

[leif erikson]

Fred, you were right! Very cool. Just tested with SCT's game again and by starting both cities off building workers was able to get three(3) of them out by 1320 (just 7 turns into the game, I think), so that can now work with 4 workers. Proceeded as follows: Began chopping in place as changed civics and then founded two cities. Put a Moscow citizen on the tile being chopped and, after the chop came in, a worker was produced in 1310 (thanks to Bureaucracy) with overflow. Using that overflow, I whipped a worker in Moscow the next turn that was completed in 1320. Meantime, by working the clams and ivory in Pete, I got enough hammers into a worker to whip one there in 1310, completed in 1315.

I think we need to be careful how much chopping we do early until we figure out where we might want to build National Park with National Epic?

EDIT - Pop-rushing seemed to work well for me without too many chops most of the time.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think we need to be careful how much chopping we do early until we figure out where we might want to build National Park with National Epic?

EDIT - Pop-rushing seemed to work well for me without too many chops most of the time.

Come on, leif . . . one chop nets two workers almost immediately at the crucial beginning of the game.

 

[ShannonCT]

I've moved the LBs and explorer. They reveal cows next to the corn and some clams in the southeast.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Looks like 1S of rice for Capital and the coastal ivory are still the best candidates.

If we do 4 civic changes immediately we could contemplate moving even further with the settlers. I was thinking about Capital on the SE dessert hill with clam, rice, corn, cow and gold and the GP farm city in place. The Capital looks weaker though (compared to 1S of rice) with more water tiles and fewer forests to chop.

I think we need to be careful how much chopping we do early until we figure out where we might want to build National Park with National Epic?

We need to decide before the game starts if we are going for NP in the Capital. I'm leaning towards grabbing the immediate gain and chop but I agree that this is not crystal clear.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"If we do 4 civic changes immediately we could contemplate moving even further with the settlers. I was thinking about Capital on the SE dessert hill with clam, rice, corn, cow and gold and the GP farm city in place. The Capital looks weaker though (compared to 1S of rice) with more water tiles and fewer forests to chop." This would eliminate the opportunity to utilize the initial chop and a whip to get two workers out in the Bureaucratized capital quickly. Having continued the test game from there, I've become much enamored of that tactic. I suspect that it would be optimal even if we do decide to go for the NP in Moscow.

Gone far enough now to concede that 4 civics are at least as good as two, though I prefer HR to OR, since it makes it easier to grow St. Pete for settler whipping.

 

[ShannonCT]

Here's an updated test game. Just in case you lose track, in the test game, the player name is "ShannonCT/Russia". In the real game, the player name is "Stalin/Russia".

 

[leif erikson]

Looks like 1S of rice for Capital and the coastal ivory are still the best candidates.

Agreed, but please see next note.

If we do 4 civic changes immediately we could contemplate moving even further with the settlers. I was thinking about Capital on the SE dessert hill with clam, rice, corn, cow and gold and the GP farm city in place. The Capital looks weaker though (compared to 1S of rice) with more water tiles and fewer forests to chop.

I like this idea. As it seems we will move the Settler to the tile one south of the Rice, then we could begin the next turn by moving the Explorer SW and then either south or SW again to see what is there? If there are more resources down south, this could be a powerful move?

We need to decide before the game starts if we are going for NP in the Capital. I'm leaning towards grabbing the immediate gain and chop but I agree that this is not crystal clear.

Not sure how we decide this? If we follow your idea above, then we could make the second city the one with NP and NE.

Come on, leif . . . one chop nets two workers almost immediately at the crucial beginning of the game.

Didn't mean no chopping. I meant to say judicious chopping, with an eye towards the future.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Got the nonsense language to work. Does Buffy remember from game to game?

"As it seems we will move the Settler to the tile one south of the Rice, then we could begin the next turn by moving the Explorer SW and then either south or SW again to see what is there? If there are more resources down south, this could be a powerful move?" There would need to be some really good resources, because we'd be losing a net of two forests to chop with a forge in Bureau, plus a delay in getting those two workers out, but it certainly makes sense to look.

Do I understand that test2 is not a save from the game, but a simulation created by SCT that we are completely free to play?

Based on my limited testing, thinking it might make sense to research Gunpowder initially and use the GE(s) to bulb a more advanced tech (there seem to be several, such as Constitution or Chemistry or Economics, that we could go after) and/or a wonder. We could then partially research, say Education, until the AI was willing to trade it to us for Gunpowder. My experience is they ask less depending on how much you have already researched towards it.

 

[ShannonCT]

Got the nonsense language to work. Does Buffy remember from game to game?

Yes.

Do I understand that test2 is not a save from the game, but a simulation created by SCT that we are completely free to play?

Yes.

 

[rrau]

What about 1 E with the settler. Would have 4 food sources and be a powerhouse for greatpeople. Also would have iron and 1 gold for some hammer production (edited number of golds and foods - miscalcualted...Not as good of idea as I'd initially thought)

 

[Frederiksberg]

So I guess it's time for more testing?

It looks like there is a general agreement that we should adopt Bureaucracy, Mercantilism and Slavery so the major decision is whether to adopt OR, HR or Pacifism.

HR will allow larger cities, OR would allow some aggressive spreading of our religion (btw, when is it founded?) in order to convert neighbor AI's and Pacifism would allow us to double the speed of our GP production and thus the initial tech speed.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Fred, you were right! Very cool. Just tested with SCT's game again and by starting both cities off building workers was able to get three(3) of them out by 1320 (just 7 turns into the game, I think), so that can now work with 4 workers. Proceeded as follows: Began chopping in place as changed civics and then founded two cities. Put a Moscow citizen on the tile being chopped and, after the chop came in, a worker was produced in 1310 (thanks to Bureaucracy) with overflow. Using that overflow, I whipped a worker in Moscow the next turn that was completed in 1320. Meantime, by working the clams and ivory in Pete, I got enough hammers into a worker to whip one there in 1310, completed in 1315. This is powerful.

One of the reasons that this works is that when building workers/settlers 1 food corresponds to 1 hammer while whipping gives 30 hammers and it only takes around 15 food to grow back with a filled granary meaning that we get 2 hammers per food.

 

[leif erikson]

So I guess it's time for more testing?

It looks like there is a general agreement that we should adopt Bureaucracy, Mercantilism and Slavery so the major decision is whether to adopt OR, HR or Pacifism.

For OR or Pacifism to be effective, we must adopt a religion. I did not do this in testing, so perhaps we should hear how it effected relations from those who did? Once we have the initial GP out and bulb Chemistry (?), then we should change civics to Caste and whatever then, around turn 50, iirc.

HR will allow larger cities, OR would allow some aggressive spreading of our religion (btw, when is it founded?) in order to convert neighbor AI's and Pacifism would allow us to double the speed of our GP production and thus the initial tech speed.

We get religion on the IBT between turns 6 and 7, iirc.

While aggressively pop-rushing, I found no real benefit to HR. We have Gold and Ivory to make some faces. When switching to Caste, I also switched to HR.

The next change would occur when we reach Communism and State Property.

Not sure losing turns over religious changes is beneficial, but I seldom play much with religion on. It was fairly powerful last game, so I am learning to use it more.

I think the question in the early game is trade, which I did a lot of in test games as a tech broker, important enough to chance diplo anxiety among our AI "friends"?