SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

"I'm getting a bit concerned about the length of time we are staying in zero research. I understand that waiting for a Library benefits us, but it is getting to be a rather long interval. Especially as we are preparing for war. I'm hoping an AI will research PP so that we can trade for it before we need it for Scientific Method. Then it becomes a non-issue." If you're hoping to trade for PP and don't want to continue at 0% research, what other tech would you suggest we go for at 100%?

Leaving home 'til late tonight, but hope to respond to additional input and post final details of plan before retiring this evening.

There are many permutations of worker moves to get forest chopped, some getting the forest removed as early as 4 turns from now (by delaying other improvements and employing maximum workers ). SCT, can you tell me the turn number (not number of turns) the forest N of Bombay needs to disappear in order to minimize the risk it will be enveloped by Bombay's culture before chop is complete?

 

[ShannonCT]

"I'm getting a bit concerned about the length of time we are staying in zero research. I understand that waiting for a Library benefits us, but it is getting to be a rather long interval. Especially as we are preparing for war. I'm hoping an AI will research PP so that we can trade for it before we need it for Scientific Method. Then it becomes a non-issue." If you're hoping to trade for PP and don't want to continue at 0% research, what other tech would you suggest we go for at 100%?

I haven't seen any evidence in my test games that we could trade for PP easily.

There are many permutations of worker moves to get forest chopped, some getting the forest removed as early as 4 turns from now (by delaying other improvements and employing maximum workers ). SCT, can you tell me the turn number (not number of turns) the forest N of Bombay needs to disappear in order to minimize the risk it will be enveloped by Bombay's culture before chop is complete?

I'd say T27.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks, SCT. Expansion of Bombay makes capturing workers much more problematic, though calculate that one of them could be vulnerable on T27. Question I'd like comment on: What are odds Bombay will not expand on T28; and, if there is any reasonable probability of that, should war be delayed to try to gain workers at risk of expansion delaying our pillaging of the ivory?

REVISIONS TO PLAN

Move SP citizen off iron onto plains hill for one turn (until mine is complete) to maximize hammers and get wkbt and warrior out in three turns.

Worker actions (subject to change, if additional workers are captured):

Complete camp and mine (24);
workers 1 and 3 onto forest by ivory and workers 2 and 4 onto forest S of iron (25);
chop ivory forest with 1 and 3, move 2 onto ivory forest, and put 4 onto forest 2S of SP (26);
1, 2, and 3 complete chop of ivory forest, and 4 begins roading (27);
1, 2, and 3 road ivory, while 4 continues to build road on forest 2S of SP (28);
4 completes forest road, allowing 1 to reach forest SW of Moscow and 2 and 3 to reach forest WSW of Moscow (29);
2 and 3 chop WSW forest and 4 moves to join them, while 1 begins roading SW forest (30);
2, 3, and 4 complete chop, while 1 continues to build road (31);
1 finishes road, while 2, 3, and 4 build road on grassland SSW of Moscow

Builds (may substitute archers for warriors when can do so conveniently, as archer cheaper to upgrade in emergency and could upgrade to lb before iron hooked):
SP: workboat>warrior>warrior>warrior>?(will consider advanced unit, library,settler with chop, plus suggestions)
MOSCOW: warrior>workboat>warrior>WE>settler

Would like team members to either offer further revisions or give consent to begin play in 24 hours (though doubt would have the opportunity that soon).

 

[Frederiksberg]

Are you planning to chop a forest inside St. Pete's FC? Seems to go against our long term plans for this city.

When are you planning to adopt pacifism?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Are you planning to chop a forest inside St. Pete's FC? Only in desperation. Seems to go against our long term plans for this city.

When are you planning to adopt pacifism?

Once someone has circumnavigation.

 

[Frederiksberg]

OK - I probably have the wrong impression about the location of the "ivory" forest then.

Bear in mind that an unnecessary delay of the Library+NE in St. Pete will cost turns on Bio. Suggest that warriors are only built in St. Pete if it's clear that Moscow can't build enough.

 

[Cactus Pete]

OK - I probably have the wrong impression about the location of the "ivory" forest then. Forest is W of ivory, not in SP's cross.

Bear in mind that an unnecessary delay of the Library+NE in St. Pete will cost turns on Bio. Suggest that warriors are only built in St. Pete if it's clear that Moscow can't build enough.

Think we have to risk erring on the other side with caution. Need to make sure there are enough warriors and other units to deal with G and the barbs. Loss of city sites is more potentially damaging than turns to BIO, since loss of sites would be more cripling to research in the long term.

 

[ShannonCT]

Thanks, SCT. Expansion of Bombay makes capturing workers much more problematic, though calculate that one of them could be vulnerable on T27. Question I'd like comment on: What are odds Bombay will not expand on T28; and, if there is any reasonable probability of that, should war be delayed to try to gain workers at risk of expansion delaying our pillaging of the ivory?

Low. Gandhi will probably start on an elephant immediately after or soon after hooking ivory. I wouldn't delay the war if you can capture a worker. Be sure to buy G's map before declaring.

Would like team members to either offer further revisions or give consent to begin play in 24 hours (though doubt would have the opportunity that soon).

Play when you're ready.

 

[leif erikson]

Good luck CP.

Warming up that Haka...

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I wouldn't delay the war if you can capture a worker. Be sure to buy G's map before declaring." Not sure whether you mean 'If you are able to capture a worker, then by all means forget about capturing another one and start the war' or 'I wouldn't delay the war past turn 27 in order to capture a worker, even an initial one'. Was planning to buy the map on turns 25 and 27.

 

[ShannonCT]

"I wouldn't delay the war if you can capture a worker. Be sure to buy G's map before declaring." Not sure whether you mean 'If you are able to capture a worker, then by all means forget about capturing another one and start the war' or 'I wouldn't delay the war past turn 27 in order to capture a worker, even an initial one'. Was planning to buy the map on turns 25 and 27.

The first thing.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The first thing.

Having looked at it further, I think that if, on turn 27, G sends his worker to the ivory closest to SP, then, rather than capture it on T27, we would have a good chance to capture two workers on that tile on T28 (by units stationed on our own ivory), and the extra worker would be worth the delay. However, if the worker moves to the distal ivory (or anywhere else) on T27, then I think we better take what we can get (if anything). With any other worker move on T27, it's unlikely we'll be able to capture a worker and should therefore go ahead and declare war when we can more quickly get to the improved ivory to pillage it.

Intending to play in a few hours, unless read otherwise.

 

[ShannonCT]

Having looked at it further, I think that if, on turn 27, G sends his worker to the ivory closest to SP, then, rather than capture it on T27, we would have a good chance to capture two workers on that tile on T28 (by units stationed on our own ivory), and the extra worker would be worth the delay. However, if the worker moves to the distal ivory (or anywhere else) on T27, then I think we better take what we can get (if anything). With any other worker move on T27, it's unlikely we'll be able to capture a worker and should therefore go ahead and declare war when we can more quickly get to the improved ivory to pillage it.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Frederiksberg]

A final word of caution. Try not to expose our longbows on flat land. Gandhi can and will attack exposed LB's if he has in excess of 2 units in a city. Pillaging the cow tile may be impossible for this reason.

 

[Cactus Pete]

A final word of caution. Try not to expose our longbows on flat land. Gandhi can and will attack exposed LB's if he has in excess of 2 units in a city. Understood.Pillaging the cow tile may be impossible for this reason. Any experience with G's agressiveness vs. two units on the same tile?

.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Cactus Pete]

Playing now . . . will post an interim save and report before retiring.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Stopped on T27 to revisit declaration of war in light of high probability of gaining circumnavigation with a 2- or perhaps a 3-turn delay. (Do you get circum when maps touch or do they have to overlap?)

T23: Initiate plan

T24: Open borders with Britain

T25: Trade for G's map and learn that his western boat has made no further progress

IBT: Delhi expands and produces a worker

T26: Pre-position forces for war

T27: Trade maps with G and R and deduce that western boat has either been sunk by a barb vessel or has turned back home, perhaps to net clams.

We are in position to attack this turn and seize one worker. Plan would be to declare, capture worker, and move explorer onto roaded forest 2W of Bombay to try to prevent him from occupying improved ivory with catapult. However, given the excellent chance of gaining circum, let's consider delaying war, risking G's developing WEs (don't think it likely he will before we declare) and improving more ivory. If he chooses to improve the third ivory and/or the wheat, by delaying (thinking 3 turns) we could end up with 2 or 3 workers, instead of one, plus circum. Should we do this, may not put SP chop into archer. Library is a possibility, as is worker, or settler. Opinions?

Won't continue until team reaches agreement. Here is save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=225751&stc=1&d=1251266730

 

[leif erikson]

However, given the excellent chance of gaining circum, let's consider delaying war, risking G's developing WEs (don't think it likely he will before we declare) and improving more ivory.

This would be very nice. Will you continue to France with our Caravel?

If he chooses to improve the third ivory and/or the wheat, by delaying (thinking 3 turns) we could end up with 2 or 3 workers, instead of one, plus circum. Should we do this, may not put SP chop into archer. Library is a possibility, as is worker, or settler. Opinions?

I agree with being patient. I like the idea of a Library as we can pop rush a Settler.

Keep up the good work. Looking good.

 

[Cactus Pete]

This would be very nice. Will you continue to France with our Caravel? Got to get to know de Gaulle.

I agree with being patient. Would probably mean delaying 4 turns, not three as previously stated. I like the idea of a Library as we can pop rush a Settler. Can't pop rush a settler without putting hammers into him first.

Keep up the good work. Looking good. Appreciate the encouragement, but most of the work on my turn set remains to be done.

Once circum is determined, is plan to sell or is it to gift our map to G (and gift to AI to compensate for religious prejudice), and does it make any difference when we do it?

 

[ShannonCT]

There are only 6 tiles left for circumnavigation. So if we buy G's map again on T29, we will probably complete the circuit. I think that since we've come this far, we should delay the war on Gandhi and take what looks like certain circumnavigation. We might be able to steal 2-3 workers in 2 turns. Gandhi will have time to build an elephant most likely, but we'll have 3 LBs to take it on (upgrade the archer next turn). Since Bombay's borders will probably pop next turn, you should probably move the LBs east.

After circum is done, buy everyone's map and then gift our map to everyone to maximize diplo benefit.

Moscow can whip a settler next turn if it starts building it now. You can send one of Moscow's warriors out to fogbust next turn after the whip, when it wont be needed for MP happiness.

I've attached a screenshot that shows all of the tiles that will be fogbusted by Gandhi's and our borders after Bombay's borders expand.