SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[Silu]

1600-1400BC sounds very risky Oracling to me. Or did someone test Oracle dates on Emperor amidst all this post madness? The new me thinks that definitely no CS/Machinery, Philo can be done but that's a gambit. If we just want to catch some easy beakers CoL or MC would be just fine.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

It is pointless to guess completion dates imo as it is way to closely related to the AIs we are playing against... Izzy won't Oracle the same date than Napoleon... (another door )

 

[Silu]

Still gives a guesstimate. On Immortal I know Oracle tends to go 2200BC-1600BC on standard maps - hence my hesitation on shooting for a 1400BC Oracle on Emperor when the custom mapmaking ups the variance considerably.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

^^ I agree Using the "guesstimater", seems a bit late ...

Looking at the save, I like SE of stone as well.

 

[Mutineer]

Off the top of my head...SH is likely to be done in the next 30-40 turns, right? We need ~19t to research TW-Msry, then ~10-14 turns to connect the stone to Stone City, so that 29-33t just to connect the stone. Then we need turns to put hammers into SH. Meanwhile, Stone City is lowering our reserach rate to 90%.

Do you see it differently, Mutineer?

Yes, if we preroad and put more then one worker on tie connection could be done mach faster.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Yes, if we preroad and put more then one worker on tie connection could be done mach faster.

I think it's more helpful to talk in terms of numbers. How many turns faster? Where will the worker come from? How much will that take away from our research building the extra worker?

 

[mdy]

In the short term I think we have much more important things to do than build gold via stonehenge. The extra gold may nor even make up for researching masonry.

1600-2200B.C. seem a little early for the Oracle on emperor. I will try to do some tests tomorrow to see if a slingshot is viable.

 

[Mutineer]

I think it's more helpful to talk in terms of numbers. How many turns faster? Where will the worker come from? How much will that take away from our research building the extra worker?

That is not right way to look it. connecting second city = + 2 immediate commerce and we will do it anyway.

 

[LowtherCastle]

That is not right way to look it. connecting second city = + 2 immediate commerce and we will do it anyway.

Yes, of course. And perhaps research Msry anyway. I'm aware of that. But which city? What to build in it? When to build the next worker? What to do with this and the next worker? Whether to slingshot or not? Which tech next? All those questions are important imo.

Mutineer, I'm not for or against Stone City/TW/Msry or any other idea. I'm for taking each good idea and doing the numbers. We're at a critical juncture, don't you think? There are many choices here and it's not obvious which is better, or which even works for any given goal.

------------------

Earlier, you wanted to build a coastal city asap. Maybe that's still the best idea. AH + 2-Fish...

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

^^ I think going for the stone city first is best for the sake of safety. Exploration via wb can wait 20 turns while the mids might not. By settling it now, we free up the capital also for something else (mids could be done in second city).

If we go for the coastal one after that, I think double fish/cow is way better than the ones marked on the save. Starts strong with only fishing (AH seems way off in our tech path). This gives TW -> masonry -> fishing -> pot -> writing for techs, without giving up much in terms of possible slingshot (we need those techs anyway to do anything decent and we will have time to build Oracle during COL if the AIs let us do). I assume we want a granary and a library in the cap asap to carry out a possible sling that's why I put writing before med -> PH.

Is a worker next a possibility? going for that allows to mine the silver then have a worker chopping/improving riverside grass mines while the other one road and start a chop in second city (needed to get copper asap).

my take on LC's questions:

cap: warrior -> worker -> settler
worker1 chop-> mine silver -> road NW of cap -> road copper -> road NW of copper (-> chop monument?)
worker2 chop riverside grass hill -> mine -> chop riverside grass mine -> mine (-> road to coastal site?)
city1: monument ->mids (or monument -> warrior -> mids function of masonry timing relative to settler)

edit: sorry if some of this was already discussed, even vetoed, but my memory can't keep up with the amount of data put in this thread
edit2: editing typos in two previous posts... I meant SE of stone to share corn for next city and I very well know indians start with myst Mysty got me confused with his silly agressive settling strat

 

[Mutineer]

Ok I went and did a few experiments. and majority want to try some sort of Oracle shot, CS at best, I look on this optiondid optimisations along the way).

Build. Capital:
settler, worker(1 pop whip), Granary (overflow+1 chop), Jungle between warrior and worker. to let city grow to side 6. Library (4 chops) finish worker, finish warrior.Academy
warrior*2-Oracle(4 math chops + whip) 1325BC (CS)

Stone city: warrior, granary(1pop whip) Pyramids overflow + many Math chops. Build 1500BC

reseach: Well, Granary, writing, (4 chops into library)-masonry math

I do not know how it is possible to do it faster. Can we take the risk?

Mids on other hand are easy chop from math. I can try and do experiment, no math - philosofy shot.. should be faster, but mids will be delayed.


Edit: I forgot to revolt to representation, it probably would speed thinks up by a couple turns max.

 

[mdy]

I do not know how it is possible to do it faster. Can we take the risk?

I can get CS at 1500B.C. Micromanagement was a bit sloppy so it is probably possible to do it 1-2 turns quicker than this. We should have enough time to get the Pyramids after any Oracle slingshot.

I don' think a second worker has enough benefits in the short term to justify building one yet.

 

[Mutineer]

I can get CS at 1500B.C. Micromanagement was a bit sloppy so it is probably possible to do it 1-2 turns quicker than this. We should have enough time to get the Pyramids after any Oracle slingshot.

I don' think a second worker has enough benefits in the short term to justify building one yet.

That is just words, if they are not supported by tech path, build order and worker actions.. That could not be checked, confirmed, analyzed.

I will do some more alternative ways and see.
Alternatives that I see are:

1) Use GS for math bulb instead of academy.
2) Taking something cheaper, but which would support rex, like Currency.
3) Forgetting CS in favor of philosophy.

4) Taking something very cheap, like monarchy or Metalcasting or col from Oracle.

5) Forgetting Oracle all together in favor of Rex. I am really want to check this option, it could be mach safer, let as send out workboat and fuel Rex by fail gold from SH/GW.

I could see benefits of Pacifism/castle combination, but CS does not look that attractive compare to risk involve.

 

[shyuhe]

Given the dates that are being tossed around, I'm starting to think col or MC may be a safer oracle target. While it's reasonably likely we can oracle around 1500 BC, I'm worried that the map makers may have given one of the religious dudes a commerce resource + marble, which would make a 2000 BC oracle possible. Then again, Stonehenge hasn't been built yet, which suggests that oracle may go late as well?

 

[Silu]

Stonehenge not being built at 3100BC does not tell anything. To my experience it rarely goes that early even on Deity. Without mapmaker assistance of course - that's one of the biggest factors to consider here IMO.

I'm starting to like MC more and more. The way things are going, we probably want to get off this rock and meet out the world, both for trading and scouting, ASAP. So a chunk out of the Optics grind while giving us early access to Engineers is a big deal, Triremes are a nice bonus as there is some coastal barb-galley-spawngroundage around as well and we have coastal Fish. I don't necessarily think we need to force a Forge to get a guaranteed GE out - running an engineer in some/all of the GP-grinding cities should be enough with the # of GPs we're going to pop.

 

[LowtherCastle]

It looks to me like the mapmaker cleverly designed this SG to give teams alternatives. You can: a) REX, b) block Zara, c) build stone wonders, but it's difficult to combine them. So the mapmaker created a game in which teams will probably follow very different paths and that's interesting. My guess is that there's also marble to the south, giving teams the choice of d) build marble wonders, but those mostly come later anyway.

The mapmaker also gave us a ton of health resources, a GP farm location and three cottage spam locations, and a religious-flavor neighbor. In short, my impression is that the mapmaker's focus was not so much on tricking us as creating a game with:

1) challenging requirements
2) lots of resources
3) a variety of ways to use the resources and satisfy the requirements
4) a dynamic map set-up so teams will go in all sorts of different directions (starting with copper or silver in BFC, or even both )

So I would assume normal emporer-level AI completion dates for the various wonders.

------------------------------------

These are the strategies we're considering:
1. Gold from failed wonders.
2. Oracle slingshot.
3. Build settler/worker factory/GP farm.
4. Grab Zara's land.
5. Build the pyramids.
6. Run a SE economy.
7. Build Oxford in Delhi.

These are our goals:
Sooner or later
0) Decide on Diplo or Cultural Victory
Sooner
1) explore
2) REX
3) research fast
4) grab a religion (or more for cultural)

Later
4) spam religion
5) get enough UN votes or build enough culture
6) fight lots of wars to spam GGs and acquire the 4 resources
7) create a GE (for UN only)

I think that our discussion and testing right now should focus on how we can combine as many of the above strategies to achieve the above "Sooner" goals.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Two questions on gold from failed wonders:

1. In the current mod, do we still get the full gold-to-hammer conversion rate even though we used stone to double our hammer production?
2. Can we get failed gold from partially building the Mids in one city and finishing them in another?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

yes yes

 

[mdy]

A few test dates for the Oracle:

1500B.C./1750B.C./975B.C./1375B.C./1325B.C./1225B.C./675B.C./1150B.C./500B.C.

In the 3 games where the Oracle was built after 1000B.C. in one The TOA and Great Lighthouse were built early, in one just the TOA, and in the 500B.C. one the Great Lighthouse, TOA and Pyramids (650B.C.) were all built early.

That is just words, if they are not supported by tech path, build order and worker actions.. That could not be checked, confirmed, analyzed.

I did not post the precise path because the micro was sloppy and can be significantly improved. Roughly it involved teching wheel-pottery-writing-COL beeline, whilst founding the second city N of the copper (though it is probably possible to alter this slightly without delaying the slingshot.) I'll try to post a more detailed build order later.

2) Taking something cheaper, but which would support rex, like Currency.
3) Forgetting CS in favor of philosophy.

4) Taking something very cheap, like monarchy or Metalcasting or col from Oracle.

Pilosophy is only around two turns cheaper. Techs like Monarchy are probably cheap enough that it is not worth building the Oracle for.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Question on founding religions: I should know this, because klarius detailed it in one of our SGs, but... Anyone know the formula for how CIV chooses which city to put the new religion into?

If we decide to grab the river city, it would be helpful to try to found our main religion there.