SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Yes, pretty close (or exactly actually...) to what I just tried. Micro works out great.
Will check what earlier GS does, it should be similar but maybe the commerce (depending on the slider and research at the time). If we had a lump of cash and went for Academy first then certainly yes... remains to be seen.
Will check what earlier GS does, it should be similar but maybe the commerce (depending on the slider and research at the time). If we had a lump of cash and went for Academy first then certainly yes... remains to be seen.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Fine with me 
Plan looks OK.
I want to emphasize again one thing although most of you probably have done it -- Please set your autosave interval to 1. This is important in late era as one set might take long time and chance of unexpected ending of the game without manual saving is higher.
I want to emphasize again one thing although most of you probably have done it -- Please set your autosave interval to 1. This is important in late era as one set might take long time and chance of unexpected ending of the game without manual saving is higher.
Good idea.
We should be able to speed things along a bit from here anyways, right, at least up to Oracle->Pyramids->GLH (if something extraordinary does not occur)... just a matter of micro.
Anyways, I realize everyone wants AH->Writing. Is everyone sure this will not delay exploring and GLH out of Vijay (and Pyramdis from Delhi for that matter)?
I can't say for sure, really.. just wondering if someone else tried it. (I'm trying Writing->Masonry/Fishing(both combinations)-Sailing-AH, and Fishing->Writing->Masonry->Sailing->AH ... getting LH+GLH out of Vijay just takes a lot of turns for me either way)
Edit: I'm assuming we want to grow Vijay asap, and farm a couple of FP to do so (leaving time to pasture cows once AH is in later).
The 1000BC target for GLH could be good enough, but it's also not 100% safe, so shaving a few turns off it would definately not hurt.
We should be able to speed things along a bit from here anyways, right, at least up to Oracle->Pyramids->GLH (if something extraordinary does not occur)... just a matter of micro.
Anyways, I realize everyone wants AH->Writing. Is everyone sure this will not delay exploring and GLH out of Vijay (and Pyramdis from Delhi for that matter)?
I can't say for sure, really.. just wondering if someone else tried it. (I'm trying Writing->Masonry/Fishing(both combinations)-Sailing-AH, and Fishing->Writing->Masonry->Sailing->AH ... getting LH+GLH out of Vijay just takes a lot of turns for me either way
)Edit: I'm assuming we want to grow Vijay asap, and farm a couple of FP to do so (leaving time to pasture cows once AH is in later).
The 1000BC target for GLH could be good enough, but it's also not 100% safe, so shaving a few turns off it would definately not hurt.
dingding
Prince
Ok, played and uploaded.
It went well according to the plan. If there is something to add, thats at T55, Warrior 1 (Woddy 2) kills a barbarian Warrior when defending.
Two warriors are watching the coast line in order to encounter other AIs exploring WB ASAP.
The most important thing I observe is Zara havent built the second city yet by T60. Given his good birth place (FP, PH), there is a reasonable chance that hes going for an early wonder which I think it can only be SH.
Given the big chance that SH will be finished before T77, Im wondering investing some more hammers on SH for cash, which may speed up the Oracle by 1 turn.
It went well according to the plan. If there is something to add, thats at T55, Warrior 1 (Woddy 2) kills a barbarian Warrior when defending.
Two warriors are watching the coast line in order to encounter other AIs exploring WB ASAP.
The most important thing I observe is Zara havent built the second city yet by T60. Given his good birth place (FP, PH), there is a reasonable chance that hes going for an early wonder which I think it can only be SH.
Given the big chance that SH will be finished before T77, Im wondering investing some more hammers on SH for cash, which may speed up the Oracle by 1 turn.
dingding
Prince
@ kossin:
The micro for the next 15 turns will be simple, unless we want to put two more turns on SH in Bombay. I'm going to try it out tonight.
I think further simulation can be done after AH, and discussion of the tech path is too good to be postponed as well.
@ Bugg:
Masonry first won't help build Pyramid earlier. We can prechop before that, so it doesn't matter to postpone it a bit. I tried one more time last night and achieved Pyramid T109/110 and GLH T120 (1000BC) with Masonry=>Mono.
GLH can be built earlier if we settle Vijay on the Pig-Fish spot. There are 5 trees but they are just too good to be saved for GL
The micro for the next 15 turns will be simple, unless we want to put two more turns on SH in Bombay. I'm going to try it out tonight.
I think further simulation can be done after AH, and discussion of the tech path is too good to be postponed as well.
@ Bugg:
Masonry first won't help build Pyramid earlier. We can prechop before that, so it doesn't matter to postpone it a bit. I tried one more time last night and achieved Pyramid T109/110 and GLH T120 (1000BC) with Masonry=>Mono.
GLH can be built earlier if we settle Vijay on the Pig-Fish spot. There are 5 trees but they are just too good to be saved for GL
@dingding
good job.
That's also pretty good for the later wonders. Going Fishing->Masonry->Sailing->AH I'm at about 107 for pyramids and 121 for GLH. Researching through Pottery->Maths and ~210 into Currency. (Depending on when you cash in SH and such). 4 workers/4cities.
Thing with starting Pyr/GLH earlier is maybe reducing chances AI will go for it as well, right?
Why is the score "only" 119 (compared to kossin's testgame at 124?). Just wondering, haven't opened the save, but I suppose there's no harm in doing it...
good job.
That's also pretty good for the later wonders. Going Fishing->Masonry->Sailing->AH I'm at about 107 for pyramids and 121 for GLH. Researching through Pottery->Maths and ~210 into Currency. (Depending on when you cash in SH and such). 4 workers/4cities.
Thing with starting Pyr/GLH earlier is maybe reducing chances AI will go for it as well, right?
Why is the score "only" 119 (compared to kossin's testgame at 124?). Just wondering, haven't opened the save, but I suppose there's no harm in doing it...
Good job, can't actually look at the save right now (on mobile) but it's time to get comparing.
The basic question is do we want the best shot at GLH or the optimal shot at it.
I tried 2 tests last night, unfortunately I got Great Prophets both times plus MM built the damn GLH both times before me...
As of the score... I don't know. I'm guessing it's either BUFFY vs regular game or maybe that I used WB to make the test game. Either way it doesn't really matter as this is not a score game
The basic question is do we want the best shot at GLH or the optimal shot at it.
I tried 2 tests last night, unfortunately I got Great Prophets both times plus MM built the damn GLH both times before me...
As of the score... I don't know. I'm guessing it's either BUFFY vs regular game or maybe that I used WB to make the test game. Either way it doesn't really matter as this is not a score game
@kossin
Getting a prophet isn't the worst that could happen, I guess... not optimal, but I've been getting them a lot in testing as well lately and it's still ok.
I think if we're going for GLH we want the best shot at it (while also getting the Mids), I mean it would be a nice thing to have on this map (apparently). Better to actually get GLH.. If it's quicker or safer to not research AH before writing, we'll gain the beakers back quickly after getting GLH. But I don't know. When is GLH started in the different tech paths?
GLH has been going 1100BC to 975BC at the earliest in testing so far, but around 1000BC we're getting it most of the time in the testgame. Can get maths before chopping too much into GLH, so that helps.
about score.. I was just curious.. doesn't mean much to me other than that
Getting a prophet isn't the worst that could happen, I guess... not optimal, but I've been getting them a lot in testing as well lately and it's still ok.
I think if we're going for GLH we want the best shot at it (while also getting the Mids), I mean it would be a nice thing to have on this map (apparently). Better to actually get GLH.. If it's quicker or safer to not research AH before writing, we'll gain the beakers back quickly after getting GLH. But I don't know. When is GLH started in the different tech paths?
GLH has been going 1100BC to 975BC at the earliest in testing so far, but around 1000BC we're getting it most of the time in the testgame. Can get maths before chopping too much into GLH, so that helps.
about score.. I was just curious.. doesn't mean much to me other than that
Good work. There's nothing to be discussed until AH, or have I missed anything?
So just post your final plan, kossin.
BTW, GPriest is as good as GS as the 1st GP. In that case, we definitely want 2nd GP out as soon as possible. Actually I'd suggest to hire 4 Scientists to get 2 GPs continuously regardless of 1st GP type.
Edit:
When I ran the longer test, I found that we are kind of short of worker after 3rd city settled. So getting 4th and 5th worker out is probably needed.
So just post your final plan, kossin.
BTW, GPriest is as good as GS as the 1st GP. In that case, we definitely want 2nd GP out as soon as possible. Actually I'd suggest to hire 4 Scientists to get 2 GPs continuously regardless of 1st GP type.
Edit:
When I ran the longer test, I found that we are kind of short of worker after 3rd city settled. So getting 4th and 5th worker out is probably needed.
Aye, there really isn't much. This is the last chance to alter a lot of the turns coming up so I just thought I'd give the opportunity.
I'll give a look at the save now and post a plan later today. If it's accepted, I can play tomorrow to gain back some lost time.
Concerning workers: yes, it gets troublesome to have workers running all over the place to get this and that done. 2 more would definitely be helpful, I think we should start planning that now.
Definitely a 4th worker before 4th settler.
EDIT: good, I see we're actually ahead 2 beakers from the simulation.
Seeing as ZY is probably going for SH, it wouldn't hurt to dump a few more hammers in it.
EDIT2: fixed the test game, beaker count matches up now and I think I've got the forests okay in the west, forgot to check in the official save.
I'll give a look at the save now and post a plan later today. If it's accepted, I can play tomorrow to gain back some lost time.
Concerning workers: yes, it gets troublesome to have workers running all over the place to get this and that done. 2 more would definitely be helpful, I think we should start planning that now.
Definitely a 4th worker before 4th settler.
EDIT: good, I see we're actually ahead 2 beakers from the simulation.
Seeing as ZY is probably going for SH, it wouldn't hurt to dump a few more hammers in it.
EDIT2: fixed the test game, beaker count matches up now and I think I've got the forests okay in the west, forgot to check in the official save.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Nice, DingDing
I just ran the testgame a couple of times, according to the plan (AH --> Writing).
Not chopping anything other than the 2 forested hills and using 2 workers to mine them, we have to slow down the Oracle to get COL. Not sure I like it.
I've also popped GProphets I didn't know what to do with. In retrospect, settling in Vijay could be a good idea ? It would speed up the GLH. I assume we don't want a shrine yet, or do we ?
Writing 1st would increase the odds to get a scientist... and allow to hire scientists earlier... Doesn't that make up for the loss of beakers of teching it first ?
The 3rd worker, if teching AH, should be used to road to the 3rd city site, first. It can prechop 2 forests on its way and then complete the roads at the same time we finish AH (and then prolly start a farm around Bombay).
After the mines are done, it would be nice to road from Delhi to the 1st mine NE. Right now we constantly have to "move1, chop, cancel, repeat"...
I also managed to lose a warrior both times I tried the testgame
Shall we consider safer locations for them ? The N-E warrior is on a non forested hill, which mean an archer will force him to move and then can chase him, because we won't have +25% fortify bonus easily. It's a bit far but there's a forested hill to the east, maybe we could move him that way ?
I just ran the testgame a couple of times, according to the plan (AH --> Writing).
Not chopping anything other than the 2 forested hills and using 2 workers to mine them, we have to slow down the Oracle to get COL. Not sure I like it.
I've also popped GProphets I didn't know what to do with. In retrospect, settling in Vijay could be a good idea ? It would speed up the GLH. I assume we don't want a shrine yet, or do we ?
Writing 1st would increase the odds to get a scientist... and allow to hire scientists earlier... Doesn't that make up for the loss of beakers of teching it first ?
The 3rd worker, if teching AH, should be used to road to the 3rd city site, first. It can prechop 2 forests on its way and then complete the roads at the same time we finish AH (and then prolly start a farm around Bombay).
After the mines are done, it would be nice to road from Delhi to the 1st mine NE. Right now we constantly have to "move1, chop, cancel, repeat"...
I also managed to lose a warrior both times I tried the testgame
Shall we consider safer locations for them ? The N-E warrior is on a non forested hill, which mean an archer will force him to move and then can chase him, because we won't have +25% fortify bonus easily. It's a bit far but there's a forested hill to the east, maybe we could move him that way ?We may want an extra warrior to fogbust the southwestern part of Bombay.
It's a large area that we don't have covered and quite a few barbs could spring from there.
In that case, I would send the to-be-finished warrior 1W of the cow which completes the spawnbust.
Delhi can make another warrior at a later time in 2 turns for garrison happiness.
Doing this just enough delays The Oracle so that Writing finishes first by 1 turn. Since we probably want to delay settling Vijay until Writing is done, it makes sense to add a few turns into SH for the failure gold. Moreover, should there be horses in its first ring, I'll let it grow on SH and have the workers ready [cancel their orders on t71 and move them in range] to pasture it immediately.
The NE warrior is there for scouting purposes(AI workboat) and for spawnbusting. The further from us the barb spawn, the more likely they'll go for Zara instead. If barbs should threaten our units I'll move them away. They're more important alive than possibly dead.
Adding a warrior where I proposed it to complete the spawnbust will make our lives a lot easier, however we'll probably want an Axe at some point to deal with the leftovers anyway.
As for my plan, the big lines are already drawn out but I'm trying a few things, namely playing with the science slider to get Writing earlier.
I can manage Writing on t82. Adding a warrior makes Oracle go to t83, while no warriors makes t81.
Delaying Oracle 1 turn isn't bad at all, we swap Oracle in Bombay for 1 turn and SH in Delhi for 1 turn (if it's still available) and we get some spare gold.
So my question: do we want an extra warrior or will we get an Axe out to deal with barbs?
I'm starting to like having an Axe around, Bombay can do one with a chop without too much trouble.
It's a large area that we don't have covered and quite a few barbs could spring from there.
In that case, I would send the to-be-finished warrior 1W of the cow which completes the spawnbust.
Delhi can make another warrior at a later time in 2 turns for garrison happiness.
Doing this just enough delays The Oracle so that Writing finishes first by 1 turn. Since we probably want to delay settling Vijay until Writing is done, it makes sense to add a few turns into SH for the failure gold. Moreover, should there be horses in its first ring, I'll let it grow on SH and have the workers ready [cancel their orders on t71 and move them in range] to pasture it immediately.
The NE warrior is there for scouting purposes(AI workboat) and for spawnbusting. The further from us the barb spawn, the more likely they'll go for Zara instead. If barbs should threaten our units I'll move them away. They're more important alive than possibly dead.
Adding a warrior where I proposed it to complete the spawnbust will make our lives a lot easier, however we'll probably want an Axe at some point to deal with the leftovers anyway.
As for my plan, the big lines are already drawn out but I'm trying a few things, namely playing with the science slider to get Writing earlier.
I can manage Writing on t82. Adding a warrior makes Oracle go to t83, while no warriors makes t81.
Delaying Oracle 1 turn isn't bad at all, we swap Oracle in Bombay for 1 turn and SH in Delhi for 1 turn (if it's still available) and we get some spare gold.
So my question: do we want an extra warrior or will we get an Axe out to deal with barbs?
I'm starting to like having an Axe around, Bombay can do one with a chop without too much trouble.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I'd say a warrior is fine :
hammer efficient & we'll want some garrison units + fogbusters --> strength is not so relevant. We'll just start to see archers in your set or mine.
Another point is that AH may reveal horses easy to hook up. Then a chariot would probably be better than an Axe. If we can't connect horses soon, then, yes, an axeman will do fine.
Alright, here's my plan draft:
This way we end up with Oracle and Writing finished on the start of t82, Delhi will grow to 7 on t83 even with scientists (enough food from 2 corns+city tile) just in time for thee missionary to get there and spread Confu (or if we're lucky it auto-spreads).
Test save included.
>>>Alternatively the workers could put a farm in Bombay, but we'd be behind a bit on roads later on.
Things to check in the round:
- EP against Zara every turn
- F9 screen every turn to avoid putting hammers in an already complete wonder
- barb activity
- Zara troops activity
legend:
slider
workers
warriors
underlined: city info
t60) [PH in 2]
t61
t62
t63 Delhi starts on Oracle,
t64 Delhi grows to 4 -> farmed grassland;
t65
t66 no input needed
t67 Bombay switch to SH will grow in 2 turns, mine finished, Delhi assigns mine instead of farm;
t68
t69
t70
t71 Bombay back on settler,
t72
t73
t74
t75
[[stop]]
Writing in 7 @ -1gpt, 7 gold left
Oracle in 7
Delhi grows next turn to 6
This way we end up with Oracle and Writing finished on the start of t82, Delhi will grow to 7 on t83 even with scientists (enough food from 2 corns+city tile) just in time for thee missionary to get there and spread Confu (or if we're lucky it auto-spreads).
Test save included.
>>>Alternatively the workers could put a farm in Bombay, but we'd be behind a bit on roads later on.
Looks like a good plan.
On T61 your worker is still farming (although everything computes if he starts the pre-chop after farming, so I'm guessing it's just a typo), at least that's the case in the testgame.
I'd be more happy with fogbusters as you had proposed earlier. In that case warrior3 would fogbust 4E2S (from Delhi) for a few turns before heading back.
On T61 your worker is still farming (although everything computes if he starts the pre-chop after farming, so I'm guessing it's just a typo), at least that's the case in the testgame.
I'd be more happy with fogbusters as you had proposed earlier. In that case warrior3 would fogbust 4E2S (from Delhi) for a few turns before heading back.
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