SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

BornInCantaloup · Jun 4, 2010

I checked the save and realized what it meant that Sal wouldn't trade Monarchy, yet :
We don't have IW.

So I guess we should make a preset to acquire it.

Here are the possibilities :
Toku : out.
Zara : out.
Sal : out (to keep the opportunity to trade for Monarchy. Does that make sense ?).

3 AIs remain :
Justinian :
- Currency vs IW, Mono, 40 gold ;
- or Currency vs IW, Meditation, Hunting, 40 gold.

Izzie :
- Alpha vs Mono OR IW +Hunting +10 gold.

Mehmed :
- Alpha vs IW, Hunting, 10 gold.

If we want to limit the number of AIs who have Alphabet, we should trade with Justinian.
If we don't care, then trading with Mehmed and Izzie looks good to me. We don't get Meditation and the 40 gold of Justinian but Mono and IW +20 gold.
If we want it all, trading with Justin and Izzie gives IW, Mono, Med & 50 gold.

I guess Hunting is irrelevant to us and we shouldn't take it, since we would then need cities not connected to our network to build warriors (we may want some more warriors for garrison purpose, not only the 4 needed for the endgame).

Thoughts ?

EDIT :
Also debatable right now is what to do with the incoming GP.
Priest 50% : build a shrine (6 confucean cities at home, 1 at Toku's) vs settle (pretty cool given multipliers and the hammers needed to build our wonders) ;
Engineer 30% : settle (cool just in the same way) vs store (That's our 3rd GP, we won't get many chances to have an engineer) ;
Merchant 10% : settle (hum ?) vs trade mission (appealing, send to Constantinople ? That's the 2nd greatest city, Delhi being the 1st) ;
Remaining 10% : bear with me

My preference is bolded.

kossin · Jun 4, 2010

@Duckweed
Thanks, I'll give it a try.
EDIT: works like a charm, many thanks!

@BIC
Saladin is researching Alphabet... we're not getting Monarchy from him with Alphabet. It would have been nice to get it for further brokering but like Duckweed said, we don't need it for a long time.

Don't trade for Hunting/Medi, we can research them in 1 turn and get overflow research... it counts against WFYABTA and I'd rather get some other tech from trades.

I'd let Saladin finish Alphabet on his own... or sell it for his gold when he is close.

Alpha can be gifted to Toku (or sold for his gold), hoping to get +4 bonus. (and then hoping he forgets we refused his demand for OB). If we ever get him closed to Pleased, we can always swap to Hinduism for 5 turns, OB and switch out.

Acquire Mono and IW from Izzy/Mehmed. It will be hard to trade with them after they meet the Hindus/Jews and we can pretty much control what they trade together. <<<This part I agree with what you posted.

I'm not sure there's a need for a pre-set, the only spot where Iron popping would matter is the fish-deer city... we don't want it under the city tile. The triple-clams can settle on top of iron for 2H city tile and the island shouldn't have iron.

GPs: settle in Delhi, even a GE. The gained hammers are substantial and so is the extra research. Heck, we might even consider running a scientist for 1 turn to have a small chance of a GS.

GM trade mission could be interesting... it would allow us to scout Toku's land I think.

Check every turn for selling techs for gold and sell when you can't get full value.

Refuse gold/cancel trade/war demands but accept the other demands.

I'll do the remaining leader XML values posts in a bit.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 4, 2010

Ok Kossin.
So I work on the plan from... right now !

Question :
How do we deal with the barb galley ?
It can't reach us on ocean tiles BUT we can't build the fishing boats on clams either...

My plan for now would be to move our wb 2SW (ocean, closer to clams)... Not much more...

Duckweed · Jun 4, 2010

The trade order:
1. Sal: Alpha <-> 30g, we can probably do the Currency<->Monarchy trade next turn. Monarchy can also be used to get some cash from Zara(2 turn from his completion) and strengthen the relation with other AIs.
2. Meh: Alpha <-> IW +10g
3. Izzy: Alpha <-> Mono + 10g
4. Toku: Alpha <-> 30g

For the 3rd GP, my vote is to settle it regardless of any type. For more than 100 turns, a settled GE will produce 6H + 10.5 ~ 20.7 beakers per turn. There are also considerable hidden benefits -- it will also speed up infrastructures and wonders in Delhi and the time to critical techs. Last, we still have decent chance to produce a GE with an engineer specialist and HG. Cities are small in this stage, hence trade mission of GM is not appealing.

The western WB can scout the southern part of Justinain continent. Delete it after it is stopped by Japanese culture. The Northern WB can lure the barbarian galley toward the the middle island city of Izzy. Return back when the barbarian galley get killed.

kossin · Jun 4, 2010

@BIC
Galley stays in ocean, wb heads to Zara's capital, hide in the city. Agree with deleting western wb when it reaches Japanese culture. Hopefully the eastern one can circle the globe and doesn't have to backtrack all the way.

I like Duckweed's trade order.

~~~

I ran a longer test with no micro at all... Liberalism>Radio in 800s. UN took ~25ish turns to build but I managed to get a GE to finish it by 1000AD.

From that test I can say: HG, MoM and Colossus [ocean becomes 2F3C with GA] are very very powerful. We can easily trigger a 45-turns GA easily and maybe even a 60 turns GA if we plan our GPP well enough....

There's 4 free GPs to be had: Music, Economics, Physics, Communism (the others are kinda far). Bulbing is strong in the case of a tech like Education but 15-turns GA is ridiculously stronger in a huge empire.

And we can count on Great Generals as well (not attached)... I think it's reasonable to look at 4 GAs.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 5, 2010

Oki doki, thank you guys.
Sorry for yesterday, I couldn't finish the plan due to having very talkactive friends who happen to phone at odd hours...
Anyways, I've done some 10 turns by now. And already have MANY questions (build orders & improvements), so you'll see the beginning of my draft in this post.

Questions, city by city :
Pataliputra :
- What improvements do we want ? Do we want any ? I just found out we can't farm the non riverside fp. Seeing this and the 2 lakes the city has, I'd say : no other improvement.
- Build order : Granary, LH, Forge.

Fish+Deer city :
- If we don't get Hunting, we don't improve the deer... I don't think it's a big deal but... is it ?
- The city has a LOT of lake tiles --> it would be a beautiful Moai Statues city.
--> Hence : what improvements should we build there ? I was thinking about workshopping the area to allow the building of the Moai... Would that be alright ?

kossin said:
From that test I can say: HG, MoM and Colossus [ocean becomes 2F3C with GA] are very very powerful. We can easily trigger a 45-turns GA easily and maybe even a 60 turns GA if we plan our GPP well enough....

So shall I set research to Calendar instead of Paper ? Or will we run to it after we get to Education ? My guess is stick to Paper --> Education for now.

I'm setting the worker moves, right now. That's incomplete from T146 (shipping to island, synchro with WIII warrior to load on galley). Thus I stopped the plan from there to avoid typos.
Anyways, maybe you'll find things to correct from T0

Spoiler :

Improvements map :

Spoiler :

Duckweed · Jun 5, 2010

@BIC
Do the tech trade 1st and upload the new save. We need to know the location of iron. I will answer your question in the update.

Edit:

Pat:
We have CS so that we can do chain irrigation, the only improvement there is the chain irrigation to the FP.
Build order -- Granary->Forge->LH->lib

Fish/Deer City:
We don't need Hunting for quite a long time since we want many warriors and the deer tile only gives 4F, no better than all the lake tiles(3F2C).

Tech Path:
MC->Aes->Lit->Calendar-Paper->Edu. Stay at pure binary research and don't save too much cash.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 5, 2010

Ok, I made the trades.
I failed at taking a screen of the Iron, but we have only one source and the location is pretty simple :
2S1E of Delhi, on the ice tile. Mined, it gives a 4H tile. I'm guessing improving it is not needed in the near future. Or would we work it to get the GLib faster ? In that case, I could assign 2 FW easily (from Delhi and Bombay).

Diplo modified :

Spoiler :

Reworked improvements map :

Spoiler :

@Duck :
farming the non riverside fp does NOT work in the testgame. I thought as well we could, but nope, even with chain irrigation.

Also, I've finished the plan up to T156. Time to verify it and type it and you'll have it.

EDIT : save re-uploaded.
I still have it on my computer... I don't need to download it again before playing, right ?

Duckweed · Jun 5, 2010

Very good, this capital is better now with the iron tile! We definitely need to improve it, it is as good as a plain hill tile and I'd like to get a couple of swordmans out to capture the barbarian city.

A question -- Do we want to switch to Hindu now to get Toku to pleased 10 turns later?

BornInCantaloup · Jun 5, 2010

Yeah... I realized that about the iron. I'll mine it and connect it, then.

About religion, I was planning to revolt into OR+Confu when the 2 newer cities would pop borders. That would allow faster build up of the infra.
It is bad diplo wise, but this is an infra heavy set. OR would be most welcome.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 5, 2010

Updated plan (almost complete, yay !) :

Spoiler :

Improvements map :

Spoiler :

kossin · Jun 5, 2010

A few things:

Most important infra imo: granary>forge>library>lighthouse for most cities. (desert cities granary>lighthouse). The goal is to whip Universities as soon as possible and get Oxford <200AD.

Every turn:
Of course, refuse war requests.

T141
Vijay settler stays inside culture. Not sure if it saves 1 gold or not, I'd just rather not gamble it and it doesn't delay the city at all.

Delhi: don't put more than 59 hammers in the Aqueduct (build wealth or whatever) so that we can 2-pop it in the HG after TGL. Forge overflow should go in TGL, overflow in wealth. I'd try chopping a few more Delhi forests to get TGL in as fast as possible.
Delhi needs: Aqueduct, Forge, TGL, HG, MoM, NE... that's a lot of hammers. The sooner they are done the better we'll be... more important than a few cottage turns.

T143
Iron? Hard to anticipate where it'll be.

T144
Try chopping the Varanasi forest to finish the Granary. Working grassland cottages isn't high priority and getting the infrastructure in is.

T145
Instead of Calcutta building a wb, I'd have Vijay do it. We can 2-pop a granary a bit later into a forge. (In my test I had Vijay build Colossus and whipped the Parthenon in Vijay - I think it works pretty well.)

T150
Vijay: anything else than the stone to work? 0F3H is pretty bad when you have a granary.

General notes: as you can see by t156, Bombay doesn't need any extra improvement so don't put in any yet.

No cottages on plains tiles (except maybe Delhi later). Rep Specialists are stronger for any city outside the capital that cottages.

No Hunting for Deer? We can always trade away Copper/Iron before Rifling to build warriors.

T156 screenshot
For some reason you're not into Confucianism?

~~~

I guess it becomes a matter of preference on how to proceed at this point, so general rules:

-granaries should be whipped/completed before the food bar is half full
-3-pop whips (6->3) are fine for forges with max overflow, other things 2 pop whips are good (best time to whip is either max overflow or when city re-grows following turn).

farms>>>>>cottages>>>>>>workshops with our current techs.

Don't build more improvements that are needed in a city... we're limited on workers and the whip is the best way to proceed for some turns.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 5, 2010

Ok, I made it somewhat clean to T156. I'll update the plan after answering Kossin.

kossin said:
T141
Vijay settler stays inside culture. Not sure if it saves 1 gold or not, I'd just rather not gamble it and it doesn't delay the city at all.

Right, I'll do this.

kossin said:
Delhi: don't put more than 59 hammers in the Aqueduct (build wealth or whatever) so that we can 2-pop it in the HG after TGL. Forge overflow should go in TGL, overflow in wealth. I'd try chopping a few more Delhi forests to get TGL in as fast as possible.
Delhi needs: Aqueduct, Forge, TGL, HG, MoM, NE... that's a lot of hammers. The sooner they are done the better we'll be... more important than a few cottage turns.

As it is planned, Delhi 2pop whips the forge (54 overflow), finishes Aqu next turn AND puts 1 turn into HG (could be Parth) BEFORE we get to Litterature.
So... I don't think we should be concerned about the 59 hammers. And overflow can't go into TGL except if we start building Parth // S. Paya // Wealth to hold the slots.
The good news is that the GLib would take 10 turns to build (3 turns from completion on T156).
I'll try to put a chop into it, you're right. There are 2 available FW by Delhi when it starts the GLib.

kossin said:
T143
Iron? Hard to anticipate where it'll be.

2S1E of Delhi, on the ice (hence the 2 FW ^^). I've made the trades already.

kossin said:
T144
Try chopping the Varanasi forest to finish the Granary. Working grassland cottages isn't high priority and getting the infrastructure in is.

Not sure this is necessary. Keeping a 2H tile can come handy in the future, + the "natural" finish would be T152 (1pop whip into... I'd have said Library, there, not Forge).

kossin said:
T145
Instead of Calcutta building a wb, I'd have Vijay do it. We can 2-pop a granary a bit later into a forge. (In my test I had Vijay build Colossus and whipped the Parthenon in Vijay - I think it works pretty well.)

Yeah. Maybe you're right. To be honest, I don't know about this issue.
--> WB in Vijay would set up the fishing boats faster, right.
--> otoh, we want to produce hammers in Vijay, so I'd rather go for infra right now.

kossin said:
T150
Vijay: anything else than the stone to work? 0F3H is pretty bad when you have a granary.

Here... I can see most of you dislike 1pop whips.
Initially I 2pop whipped Vijay's granary on T147 (50 overflow), but then it takes a long long time to grow back, with only little hammer output. I think it's faster to get the forge with a 1pop whip.
If that premise is accepted, then Vijay doesn't have a granary yet when it works the 0F3H tile and no better tile, nope (or coast ?). The granary is whipped 1 turn from completion and the forge is then started.

kossin said:
General notes: as you can see by t156, Bombay doesn't need any extra improvement so don't put in any yet.

Right.

kossin said:
No cottages on plains tiles (except maybe Delhi later). Rep Specialists are stronger for any city outside the capital that cottages.

So no improvement needed for the 3clams. Ok.

No Hunting for Deer? We can always trade away Copper/Iron before Rifling to build warriors.

kossin said:
T156 screenshot
For some reason you're not into Confucianism?

That is mean :lol:

Or do you worry that I do the same for the real game ?

kossin said:
-granaries should be whipped/completed before the food bar is half full

Is it that bad to whip afterwards ? I've planned a couple of whips 2 turns before growth (1 turn finishes Granary, next turn grows).

Look, now I'm in Confu :

Bugg123 · Jun 5, 2010

Hmm.. A ton of stuff happening.

A bit short on time this weekend (all of a sudden), but:

Originally Posted by kossin View Post
T145
Instead of Calcutta building a wb, I'd have Vijay do it. We can 2-pop a granary a bit later into a forge. (In my test I had Vijay build Colossus and whipped the Parthenon in Vijay - I think it works pretty well.)

(In my test I had Vijay build Colossus and whipped the Parthenon in Vijay - I think it works pretty well.)

^^ I like this. Vijay seems like pretty much the only other city that can pull anything off.. It'd be nice to make this happen!

@BIC: Yeah.. getting the tree chopped in Delhi shouldn't be a problem.

Other than that I think I like the plan. Will have to play through the finalized plan as well, though.

kossin · Jun 5, 2010

Iron: didn't know about the trades, sorry!

T144: I had in mind of borrowing the marble from Vijay while we whip it down (it should work food tiles in priority)
Forge will let us save hammers on Library and University whip. Maybe Library>Forge works better, I must say I didn't do the math or haven't tried it.

T156 about Confu
Sorry, didn't mean to say it that way, was just wondering when you switched out.

3clams can borrow a cottage from Varanasi as you had it do, or we can start farming the grassland around Vijay and then the plains later I guess.

Before saying anything more stupid I'll try it

BornInCantaloup · Jun 5, 2010

Updated plan :
It takes a while to write, so, obv, you've answered in the meantime... Well, that's what was planned 1 hour ago, with minor modifications due to Kossin's reaction (chops near Delhi). Without Kossin's adjustments, that is what was played in the save I uploaded.

@Kossin, about T156 screenshot, that was irony on my part, I didn't take your comment in the wrong way ^^
I didn't switch out of Confu ! I just didn't switch in at all... hahaha !

Spoiler :

Duckweed · Jun 5, 2010

BornInCantaloup said:
About religion, I was planning to revolt into OR+Confu when the 2 newer cities would pop borders. That would allow faster build up of the infra.
It is bad diplo wise, but this is an infra heavy set. OR would be most welcome.

On the contrary, it's good diplomatic and economic wise, but bad hammer wise. I think it's the best time to switch to Hindu now, since we still need 5 turns on CS. The actual delay of OR is 5 turns, but the extra trade routes from Toku and Justinian are considerable.

I think either Justinian or Meh will be the largest AI in this game, so DOW one of them is probably needed.

I will check your plan tonight, some issues to me from the glance.

BornInCantaloup · Jun 5, 2010

Duckweed said:
On the contrary, it's good diplomatic and economic wise, but bad hammer wise. I think it's the best time to switch to Hindu now, since we still need 5 turns on CS. The actual delay of OR is 5 turns, but the extra trade routes from Toku and Justinian are considerable.

I will check your plan tonight, some issues to me from the glance.

Ok, I get it. I didn't realize we could switch to Hindu for 5 turns and then OR+Slavery+Confu. I'll edit this right away.

Your comments will be welcome. I know my plan isn't optimal

kossin · Jun 5, 2010

@BIC
Try 2-pop whipping Forge and Aqueduct in TGL + 2 chops. Doing this I finished it on t152. By t156, Delhi is size 8 again, 3 turns from size 9 and 3 turns from HG (meaning size 10 in 3 turns).

We lose a few cottage turns, 1 turn of growth in Delhi but gain a lot of science, GPP and 1 pop everywhere much earlier.

Fish+deer can borrow one cottage from Delhi so the actual cottage turns lost are even lower.

There's more but I'll try putting something together that's more coherent.

kossin · Jun 5, 2010

I'll go city by city.

Cities not mentioned are fine.

Patali: agree with what you do here. Whip Parthenon via other infra.
Bombay: No warriors yet we have enough happy surplus. We may want consider swapping the horses with Vijay at some point to grow faster while building a granary.
Calcutta: agree with worker, it will be most useful before finishing the granary. We need to farm all the grassland here to grow more (start from Bombay). incense plantation can wait.

Varanasi: I much prefer chopping the forest to finish the granary without whipping. Forge before library for 3-pop whip. We can borrow the marble for production if we ever need some.

Bangalore: 2nd pop should use the cottage from Delhi to grow it.

Major micro: Delhi - works farm
t142 build wealth (send Aqueduct in queue)
t143 start Forge (9th pop on cottage) -- FW starts chopping 1E of Delhi (we won't be working the iron for some time)
t146 mine->cottage (faster growth by 1) -- FW cancels forest chop
t147 10th pop on mine -- Delhi FW goes 1E and starts chop, Bombay FW goes 1N of Delhi cottage+cancel
t148 2-pop whip Forge
t149 overflow in TGL, Bombay FW finishes 1st chop (then can go to the iron)
t150 2-pop whip Aqueduct>TGL
t151 Delhi FW finishes 2nd chop, TGL completes this turn, Delhi size 7, 2 turns from size 8

Continuing to t156 we get
Delhi size 8 (1 turn from 9), HG in 6 (times perfectly with size 10 growth so we're size 11 on t162). It also means we don't have to use 2 FW on the iron as we won't use it right away.

SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

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