SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

Should we be chasing Corporation before Biology? We don't know the techs that would open any corporations, the 1 extra trade route will be nice but the extra food from Biology is better isn't it??

I would let the AIs complete Corporation for us.

Its much better to pursue Biology, since we could use the extra Food where we have built Farms. We may need to convert a few Tiles in some Cities to Farms to get a reasonable benefit from Biology. Biology is on the beeline to Superconductors (Research Institutes) and is the prerequisite for Medicine (needed to found Sid's Sushi).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Assembly Line -- I am a big fan of AL, as I have mentioned before. The upside is factories and power plants to boost hammers in our strongest cities (and even our middling cities), which can then be used on anything we need. In particular, it can be used for a very powerful wealth building option to boost our seriously lagging research rate.

I sometimes see Assembly Line as a waste of time when pursued too early. One needs to build up the Hammer rate in Cities where one is planning to build Factory and Coal Plants or it will take forever to build a Factory and it only gains one +25% Hammers. Cities that have a poor Hammer base often need Mining, Inc. to have a Hammer rate high enough to build a Factory in a reasonable time frame.

Even when Factory and Coal Plant are constructed in a reasonable time frame in most Cities, there may be nothing else interesting to build because one's most advanced Technology is Assembly Line.

I'd rather have Superconductors and build Research Institutes slowly than Assembly Line with nothing interesting to build. It won't be much worse than our current Bank building blitz, since Banks are 200H and Research Institutes are only 50H more. Most of our Cities could build Research Institutes in 20t without the benefit of Assembly Line.

With Civilization IV, there are very few clear strategic paths that should always be followed. Thus, bee-lining Assembly Line isn't always the best choice though it often could be. I'm not saying bee-lining Assembly Line is a bad idea; I'm just expressing my doubts about it.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Sun Tzu Wu,

We would always have something "interesting" to build in a city with a factory -- wealth! If we have no other needs for buildings, units, etc., a factory city can always crank out some cash to boost our tech rate.

It is true that factories take time to build, but so do most expensive buildings. Factories do have the advantage of speeding up all following builds. So if we know we are going to build a factory in a given city at some point, there is solid benefit from building it first in order to get maximum benefit.

Other builds may take precedence due to need for beakers, GPP, cash, whatever. This is where player judgement has to decide what is most urgent, and thus this discussion. :) But getting those additional hammers going earlier tends to pay off.

You have a good point about needing more base hammers (Mining Inc, levees, whatever) in some cities before a factory will really pay off. At first, only our strongest hammer cities will benefit from a factory. But because they are the strongest cities, we get a large fraction of the total eventual benefit early. These factory boosted cities can then produce wealth or units or wonders (or Mining Inc executives!) while other cities slowly get their factories online.

We do need to think about power for our factories, and about health. Powered factories produce serious health issues (much more than the original "vanilla" Civ IV factories did), and of course we need a power source: coal, nukes, hydro, or Three Gorges (for cities on the main continent).

We already know that we do not have a close, convenient uranium source. Coal will not be revealed until Steam Power, which has the additional advantage of unlocking levees. If we turn out not to have any coal, then factories are going to be much less beneficial. :( We would almost have to go for Three Gorges at that point, to at least power our mainland cities.

Maybe grabbing that uranium for insurance is more important than I thought? :(

I do like your plan to go directly for Biology and hope the AIs will research Corporation for us. The additional trade routes would almost certainly all be internal right now, with many AIs running Merc. By the time Corporation became available by trade, hopefully Economics would have tempted at least some AIs to convert to Free Market and open up foreign trade routes again. We can get boosted farms sooner, and maybe start pushing to Medicine. These are on our path to Research Institutes which we very much want anyway.

Do we have any interest in pushing for the Electricity-Radio-Mass Media wonders? We can probably get the happiness "hit" resources in trade, but Cristo and (to a smaller extent) Eiffel would be nice to have. Both are quite expensive, though, even with iron for Eiffel. :(
 
Because of the way the AI is coded they regard Corporation as opening the opportunity to building a world wonder which is why I'm doubtful we would get it in trade. Although the trade routes would be internal it would be an extra 2g per city at least. If we can get Nat and Rep in trade to me it makes sense to get it earlier.

Must admit I like going for the Radio Wonders. Bit long build though in cities without a factory or IW. :)
 
More thoughts and use of GP's.

We haven't had a Golden Age yet and I think they are going to be more beneficial than bulbing especially with the MoM.

Problem is when to take them obviously need GP's as well but running caste will get us plenty plus an extra hammer from workshops. This why I'm so keen on getting the Taj we should with that be able to run 4 golden ages till the end of the game which is 48 turns. So 6 GP's needed. Probably the best time is when we want to change civics. I am keen to go into FR/FS/Caste/FM (when able to build corps) especially if we are going to go for early sushi. Unlimited Scientists/Merchants etc and double GPP points during the GAges.

We do need a big boost from somewhere though. Current game I'm playing putting out 3000 beakers per turn in 1800AD and tbh its not fast enough for this sort of game or for a decent finish time in this game.
 
Sleepless,

Sounds good to me, and I agree that we will get a large boost from golden ages.

I am curious why you would switch to FS, though. Do we have enough towns to make that more valuable than running Bureaucracy for our double gold/academy/Oxford capital? The extra culture would be nice, but I am do not think we would come out ahead on commerce. Not to mention the hammers.
 
Free speech is a much cheaper civic than bureacracy and we do have a few towns outside the capital. I might have read that wrong though??

Also wouldn't change out of bur until Taj is built by us or elsewhere.
 
Sun's point is that we'll get a bigger bang for our buck when we have cities worth putting the factory up, and I agree there.

I think we *hope* that the AI goes for corporation.

We shouldn't get out of Bur right now. Save it for the GA. RIght now Bur is helping make our capital a wealth machine, which we clearly need.

We should reserve the GS b/c if we can get a GA by the Taj, then we have an extra tech there. Otherwise I think we are forced to burn the GS then
 
Sounds good so far, Ozbenno! :goodjob:

More techs for us, and Chemistry gives our workshops another hammer each. Biology for more farm output, and hopefully the AIs will head towards Corporation.
 
7 turns to see if the Taj pays off, good luck!

Note: My minor computer issues should be resolved, I now have an ALIENWARE gaming rig (crazy cyber monday sale)

I'll have to install Civ4 soon =)
 
Congrats on the new gaming rig, JH! :thumbsup:

I got a new rig a few months back, mostly for playing Left4Dead with friends. But it certainly makes the Civ IV experience better as well. :D

Also, I will be away from my Civ computer starting Monday afternoon, and will be gone for a week or maybe a day or two more. I will have to ask for a skip during this period.
 
Played until Taj Mahal was built...

By us :goodjob:

Currently we are in a 12 turn Golden Age, which gives us a decent +ve research at 60%. We can go for the civics swap now if we wish.

Biology is in 1 turn and we also popped a GS in the capitol. We can probably burn on Electricity if we want or go for the 24 turn Golden Age. Either way Electricity is probably the best bet for next tech.

Paris is now swamped by DeGaulle, we need some more military here, have started a rifle nearby and we can upgrade troops inside if we wish. Problem is that we now can't easily access, might not be able to easily stop it going into revolt.

Also, we can't scrub fallout in AI lands. This could be a major issue, stopping us fulfilling the goals of the game.

Last, we founded a bunch of cities to grab resources, another settler or two around as well.

Spoiler :
Turn 227, 1585 AD: Confucianism has spread in PigSheep.
Turn 227, 1585 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!
Turn 227, 1585 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in PigSheep. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 227, 1585 AD: The borders of ClamSheep have expanded!

Turn 228, 1590 AD: Novgorod has been founded.
Turn 228, 1590 AD: You have discovered Constitution!
Turn 228, 1590 AD: You have discovered Chemistry!
Turn 228, 1590 AD: You have trained a Worker in WineDeer. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 228, 1590 AD: Roosevelt adopts State Property!

Turn 229, 1595 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Marseilles. Work has now begun on a Bank.
Turn 229, 1595 AD: You have constructed a Library in PigSheep. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.

Turn 230, 1600 AD: Confucianism has spread in WineDeer.
Turn 230, 1600 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in CopperCorn. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 231, 1605 AD: Gandhi adopts State Property!
Turn 231, 1605 AD: Mahavira (Great Prophet) has been born in Stalingrad (Stalin the Despicable)!

Turn 232, 1610 AD: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!
Turn 232, 1610 AD: Taoism has spread in Novgorod.
Turn 232, 1610 AD: Stalin the Despicable has completed The Temple of Solomon!

Turn 233, 1615 AD: You have constructed a Bank in Paris. Work has now begun on a University.
Turn 233, 1615 AD: Gandhi has made peace with Churchill!

Turn 234, 1620 AD: QuickSilver has grown to size 7.
Turn 234, 1620 AD: Marseilles has grown to size 10.
Turn 234, 1620 AD: Ivory Town has grown to size 12.
Turn 234, 1620 AD: Churchill has 360 gold available for trade.
Turn 234, 1620 AD: SugarPig will grow to size 17 on the next turn.
Turn 234, 1620 AD: WineDeer will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 234, 1620 AD: PigSheep will grow to size 7 on the next turn.

Turn 235, 1625 AD: SugarPig has grown to size 17.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: WineDeer has grown to size 6.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: PigSheep has grown to size 7.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Gandhi has 60 gold available for trade.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: De Gaulle is the worst enemy of Churchill, Gandhi.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: The borders of WineDeer are about to expand.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Confucianism has spread in CopperCorn.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Rostov has been founded.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Novgorod.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Yaroslavl' has been founded.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: MarbleTown will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Catherine's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Catherine has completed The Taj Mahal!
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Charles Darwin (Great Scientist) has been born in Capital (Catherine)!
Turn 235, 1625 AD: The borders of WineDeer have expanded!
Turn 235, 1625 AD: Churchill has founded Dover in a distant land.

Turn 236, 1630 AD: MarbleTown has grown to size 10.
Turn 236, 1630 AD: Churchill has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 236, 1630 AD: Mao Zedong has 180 gold available for trade.
Turn 236, 1630 AD: Roosevelt is the worst enemy of Mao Zedong.
 
Looks good Ozbenno.

:goodjob: On the turnset and with the Taj Mahal and settling a few more cities.

Ouch its really bad news we can't clear up fallout in the AI's lands!!! The only way I can see around it is to attack the AI clear up there land and possibly gift back the cities or not as the case may be.

Tech path.

Corporation. As I already mentioned we will not get this in trade unless an AI is friendly and that is not likely to be for a while if ever.

If we want a mining/sushi empire we should aim to get the required techs asap. Going for corp after bio lets us build Wall Street in he capital ready for Corp founding. On the negative side leaving SP is going to be a huge hit to our empire costs.

City builds. We should aim to get forges up before a lot of the bigger city builds like obs/unis/banks etc.

Sugar/Pig should be running max specs during a golden age of any sort. So a theatre would be handy to run artists as well as using merchants for Trade Missions if we get any. Saying the I would move out of serfdom now to Caste. We have enough workers for the tile improvments left and the ability to run unlimited specs especially as we will have BIo shortly would be a big help. The +1 hammer doesn't hurt either.

I also believe we should run wealth when we can to get the slider to 100% science per turn. This is where a few GMs would help (esp from caste) and we should have no trouble in running at least 3 more Golden Ages.
 
Looks like a nice turnset, Ozbenno! :goodjob:

Another option with clearing fallout in AI lands is to eventually gift them the Ecology tech and let them clean it up. I am not sure how aggressively the AI will go after fallout once they have the tech, but it should help. More wars is probably a last resort. We do need to handle everything outside the AI borders.

I agree with Sleepless that if we want the corporations, we will probably need to research the tech ourselves. The extra trade routes are a nice bonus. We can put it off until we finish all the techs needed to actually found Sushi and Mining, since we plan to remain in SP until then anyway. A move towards levees and factories would be useful to improve our production, and we need Steam Power for Railroads and Mining Inc in any case.

Electricity...expensive tech which mostly leads to other things, plus some boost to windmills and such. Not sure we want to sink a bunch of hammers into Broadway.
 
More thoughts about clean up.

Definitley have to give out ecology asap to the AI to get them to clean up. Can see a problem with DG here so might end up having to gift a city or 2 and taking them back after his current capital. Can't even see a way to have ob with him to gift him a worker. Perhaps we can build a city up near the iron/wine city and gift it to him? Obviously after clearing the fallout first. :) On the plus side this will delay a lot of teams as well. Negative side you can never get the AI to do things properly when you want them to. Played an OCC game trying for a cultural win with permanent alliances. A case of no why are you building that when you have catherderals etc to build. Fun though. :)
 
Ozbenno got us Nationalism and Constitution trades, several more Cities founded, Settlers in the pipeline for additional new Cities, more Confucianism spreading, The Taj Mahal and a Research 60% break even point (+11 Wpt) with a 12 turn Golden Age! :goodjob:

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I suspect that the AI is not able to settle on Sites with Fallout.

If true, we must have a Settler ready to settle on such a Site went our worker finishing clearing the Fallout there.

This must be done on the same turn. Notice that the Worker on the FishClam Site (ESE of Ivory Town) is just 1t from clearing Fallout there and two of Churchill's Galleon's are within 1t of it, and either one is likely to have a Settler that could steal that Site from us immediately after our Worker clears the Fallout there. That particular Worker should be moved 1 South and clear single turns of Fallout on the City Ruins (Clear Fallout; Cancel Action) so Churchill can't sneak in a City there as well (but we keep the Worker busy as much as possible until we get a Settler there).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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