SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

I tried the spy thing into culture. It takes 3 espionage points to spread 1 culture, so you would need ridiculous espionage modifiers to pull it off. You will also need an army of spies, and between 10,000 and 100,000 espionage points to spread 30,000 culture. I wouldn't attempt it on normal speed. It is just too slow. To get the necessary espionage you have to go all the way to communism.

We can get that espionage without communism I would think.

If we use espionage to get lengendary in one city, wonders to get the other city legendary (with cathedrals in that city only), and great artists to get the last city lengendary then we could use the slider to produce espionage.
So the entire empire could put it's commerce output into to producing the necessary espionage. Since we will probably get nationalism for the hermitage it isn't too far from constitution for jails. That means we could have +50% espionage from jails in key cities and we could run nationalism for an additional +25%. Plus you can run spies in the cities with jails and possibly all cities with a courthouse.

So for an empire with 20 cities, 20 courthouses, 10 jails, 40 spy specialists, 100% espionage running nationalism we could get about 1000 espionage points per turn. So for 50,000 culture and a discount of 0.25 on espionage missions you need about 37,000 espionage points and at 1000 espionge per turn thats 37 turns. (and an army of spies)
 
Frogdude, it has been 48 hours since you posted a got it. Are you going to be able to post the PPP soon, or do you need to pass your turn?
 
I tried my hand at a T75 TGL attempt.
Went for a granary at the Capital and Stone City right away. I concentrated on whipping overflows into pyramids.

In gems city, built an exploring workboat first, whipped a settler, and overflowed into a granary. Not sure if that is the best play, or if I should have gone granary first with a chop to speed it up. I tried to save forests where possible.

Pared everything down to what seemed important. Here is my T75 TGL save and T84 Pyramids save.
 

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Right now I think diplomatic has the best shot at beating a cultural victory.



We don't need to win a diplomatic game at the end of a gun.

I can see how we could win a diplomatic game by aggressively spreading the AP religion. AI's will switch to the AP religion and stay if they have enough cities converted to that religion for them even if they have founded a different religion.

If we get 2 pairs set up in the AP religion and maybe take out 1 of the other pairs, and the other pair that isn't in the AP is our rival for the election then we could win the election.

...

Here is my save from a domination attempt. It is T158 and I'm 4 turns from cannons and have a significant force of galleons macemen and treb. And I'm no domination/conquest expert. Nor did I think too carefully about possible strategies using horses or drafting. This is brute force domination.
I think it would be possible to get domination in 50 turns from the point of the save. And if we do conquest/domination right, I suspect we could do better...



Those are good points. Maybe we should play 10 or 20 more turns and pick a VC later. If we stumble upon the wizard/west witches, we can make a better decision I think.
 
Sorry for the delay, I've been away most of the weekend so haven't been able to spend as much time working on this as I would've liked.

There are some tradeoffs to be made here between running the workers where they need to be most, and being more efficient by micromanaging a turn on stuff doing things along the way.

I'll put out this draft PPP to start with to get the comments flowing and things moving. Plan is up to start turn 60. Not much happening in this turnset, it's all about worker turns, which unfortunately have flowon effects long way down the track, so difficult to determine what's best.

Spoiler :


Tech: finish Pottery -> switch to Sailing with 2 turns at 0%


Washington (City) -
Finish Worker
Switch Granary


Stone City (City) -
Put 2 turns on Pyramids for some eventual fail gold (and potentially discouraging any AI researching Masonry if they haven't already).
Switch Granary

Gem City (City) - I'd name it Emerald City, but that might be where the wizard is :lol:
Build south of Wheat
Start Granary
Work Gems tile as soon as it's up.


Eiffel (Worker) -
Turn 52-53 Road West Stone City
Turn 54-56 3turns on Mine on GHill (incomplete)
Turn 57-58 Farm Rice
Turn 59 complete Mine on GHill

Fritz (Worker) -
Turn 52 Head to Gold
Turn 53-54 Road Gold
Turn 55-56 Road Rice
Turn 57-59 Farm Rice

Karl (Worker) -
Turn 52-53 Head to Gems
Turn 54-57 Mine Gems
Turn 58 Road W of Gems (1 turn only)
Turn 59 Farm Wheat

Goodyear (new Worker) -
Turn 54 Move PH NW of Washington
Turn 55-56 Road NW of Washington
Turn 57 Road incense (1 turn only)
Turn 58 Road N of Gems (1 turn only)
Turn 59 Road W of Gems (complete)
This worker especially is the one that is debatable. If you sacrifice the road NW of washington you can get the Gems up one turn earlier, but it's a very handy road to get further workers and settlers flowing freely

Warriors:
Burke - Keep exploring westerly direction keeping as safe as possible
Columbus - Move to position 2NW of sheep and fortify
Amundsen - Fortify on hill SW of Silver
Malcolm - Move to Elephant and fortify
I think this gives us full barbarian spawn coverage other than from the spoke. (which the great wall will cover!


Stopping Points -

Meet a new AI
Giant Death Robot (Wizard) turns up
Malcolm gets in trouble by a barbarian coming out of dye as he gets onto the elephant. He'll have movement point if this is the case, so he won't be committed to battle, but We'll have to decide whether to retreat him to hill/across river.
Burke gets in danger
Great Lighthouse or Pyramids is completed by AI
AI offers any sort of deal. (Any thoughts on our diplomatic position re: Open Borders)?


I could potentially play this turnset around 33 hours from now, or multiples of 24hours after that.
 
Thanks frogdude for responding quickly

My thoughts on worker actions.
Since we don't plan to work the gold immediately with Stone city we can delay roading the gold and setup a grassland farm for Stone City instead.

Spoiler :
Effiel
T52, move SW & road and stop
T53 move SW & farm
T54 farm
T55 farm
T56 road in place
T57 farm rice
T58 farm rice
T59 finish rice
T60 move to gold

Fritz
T52 move W & road, stop
T53 move SW & finish road Effiel started
T54 move SW & farm
T55 finish farm with Effiel
T56 road in place
T57 move to rice & farm
T58 farm rice
T59 start road on rice
T60 finish road on rice


I like this plan for Karl and Goodyear since it gives us the gems 1 turn earlier and gets the wheat 2? turns earlier.
Spoiler :
Karl
T52 moves 2NW
T53 moves 2SW
T54 gems
T55 gems
T56 gems
T57 moves W & roads
T58 moves W & farms wheat
T59 farms wheat
T60 finishes wheat with Goodyear's help

Goodyear
T54 moves PH
T55 moves W and roads & stops
T56 moves & finishes gems
T57 moves W and roads
T58 moves W and farms wheat
T59 farms wheat
T60 roads wheat


Tile adjustments that go along with worker plan above
switch from stone to grassland farm on T56 for Stone city
switch to rice from grassland farm on T59 for stone city
plan to whip granary in stone city T60 with above plan (I believe it works out to having 10/24 food in the bin after the granary is finished)

switch to gems on T56 from unimproved deer in Gems city
switch to wheat on T60 from gems in Gems city

Options for Washington builds
1) build a warrior instead growing to pop 4 by maximizing food and finishing the warrior
build settler and 2 pop whip with max overflow into granary in the capital

2) Or 2 pop washington's granary on T60 and put overflow into settler for 1 turn then switch to pyramids to regrow
finishing settler when at pop 5 and can 2 pop whip it.

I need to work out the details of option 1 and option 2. I like producing the settler and another warrior with washington better than granary first but I"m uncertain if it really is better.
other thoughts
I like a workboat in Gems city before the granary.

I'm happy with pyramids in Stone city until we get sailing

Before moving Burke across a wide expanse of open space, wait for an AI unit to help us fogbust perhaps...
 
Thanks frogdude for responding quickly

My thoughts on worker actions.
Since we don't plan to work the gold immediately with Stone city we can delay roading the gold and setup a grassland farm for Stone City instead.

Agreed, but I can improve on bc's plan:

Spoiler :
Effiel
T52, move SW & road and stop
T53 move SW & farm
T54 return to finish road
T55 road rice
T56 road rice
T57 farm rice
T58 farm rice
T59 finish rice
T60 move to gold

Fritz
T52 move W and SW
T53 move SW & farm
T54 farm
T55 farm
T56 finish farm (in time for it to be worked this turn at size 3)
T57 move to rice & farm
T58 farm rice
T59 move to Gmine and mine
T60 mine


I lose a worker turn, but spend 2 fewer on a nearly pointless road.

I like this plan for Karl and Goodyear since it gives us the gems 1 turn earlier and gets the wheat 2? turns earlier.

Agreed, but if we are planning to work the gems throughout, then there is no rush to finish the wheat farm. One worker is enough. So I suggest:

Spoiler :
Karl
T52 moves 2NW
T53 moves 2SW
T54 gems
T55 gems
T56 gems
T57 moves W & roads
T58 moves W & farms wheat
T59 farms wheat
T60 farm

Goodyear
T54 moves PH
T55 moves W and roads & stops
T56 moves & finishes gems
T57 moves SE-SE
T58 chops
T59 chop
T60 done chop


This means that Goodyear is in position to chop the forest SE of Washington next, which speeds settling a city on the southern coast in terms of hammers and movement points. I think the fourth city is best between marble and crabs, planning another post-Mysticism for the other two seafood and the culture bridge. Alternative thoughts anyone?

Tile adjustments that go along with worker plan above
switch from stone to grassland farm on T56 for Stone city
switch to rice from grassland farm on T59 for stone city
plan to whip granary in stone city T60 with above plan (I believe it works out to having 10/24 food in the bin after the granary is finished)

switch to gems on T56 from unimproved deer in Gems city
switch to wheat on T60 from gems in Gems city

Options for Washington builds
1) build a warrior instead growing to pop 4 by maximizing food and finishing the warrior
build settler and 2 pop whip with max overflow into granary in the capital

2) Or 2 pop washington's granary on T60 and put overflow into settler for 1 turn then switch to pyramids to regrow
finishing settler when at pop 5 and can 2 pop whip it.

I need to work out the details of option 1 and option 2. I like producing the settler and another warrior with washington better than granary first but I'm uncertain if it really is better.

I tried a fast whip of a granary (2 above - but build a warrior next) and growing on the granary before a fast whip of a settler overflowing to finish the granary next turn (1a). The build orders differ only after T59. Chops arrived T60 and T64 only. By T80 both cities were at size 5 with 21 food in the box and a new warrior MP. Comparing them:

Option 2 had 148 stone-multiplied hammers on the Pyramids and 17 on the next settler, with 10 turns until whip unhappiness faded. Its settlers were produced T66 (which is just in time for the workboat from Boston to arrive) and T74.

Option 1a had only 76 stone-multiplied hammers on the Pyramids but 34 on the next settler, with 3 turns until unhappiness faded. Its settlers were produced T63 and T72. These settler times are earlier, but it is not clear to me that this is a definite advantage. Settling the fourth city three turns earlier before a workboat or GLH is available is not a big edge.

other thoughts
I like a workboat in Gems city before the granary.

Yes.

I'm happy with pyramids in Stone city until we get sailing

Before moving Burke across a wide expanse of open space, wait for an AI unit to help us fogbust perhaps...

Yes

Also we need to pay attention to happiness in Stone City because we are whipping twice in rapid succession. We may need to play to hook up both gems and gold, or bring an MP home, or such.
 
Thanks frogdude for responding quickly

My thoughts on worker actions.
Since we don't plan to work the gold immediately with Stone city we can delay roading the gold and setup a grassland farm for Stone City instead.

Spoiler :
Effiel
T52, move SW & road and stop
T53 move SW & farm
T54 farm
T55 farm
T56 road in place
T57 farm rice
T58 farm rice
T59 finish rice
T60 move to gold

Fritz
T52 move W & road, stop
T53 move SW & finish road Effiel started
T54 move SW & farm
T55 finish farm with Effiel
T56 road in place
T57 move to rice & farm
T58 farm rice
T59 start road on rice
T60 finish road on rice
I did a side-by-side comparison of this plan compared to the one in the draft PPP. This plan is:
  • +1 GrasslandRiver farm
  • -1 GrasslandHill mine
  • -1 turn on Rice road
  • +1 road E of spice (medium value road)
  • -1 Gold road
  • +1 turn road N of stone city (I don't assign this road much value at all but it's free to chuck down the turn on it)
The GrasslandRiver farm is of dubious longterm value but could be ok from time to time to let StoneCity or Washington grow.
The GrasslandHill mine is much more useful.

I played out both to turn 63 so that the granary has time to kick in and make the comparison fair. Both plans had 12 food in the box, but the new plan had 18 hammers down on the lighthouse against 14. The new plan also picks a couple of commerce benefit on the PPP one.

So worker productivity wise, I think the PPP plan ends up with more/better work done.
However short-term production, we are better with the new plan. I am happy to go either way.


I like this plan for Karl and Goodyear since it gives us the gems 1 turn earlier and gets the wheat 2? turns earlier.
Spoiler :
Karl
T52 moves 2NW
T53 moves 2SW
T54 gems
T55 gems
T56 gems
T57 moves W & roads
T58 moves W & farms wheat
T59 farms wheat
T60 finishes wheat with Goodyear's help

Goodyear
T54 moves PH
T55 moves W and roads & stops
T56 moves & finishes gems
T57 moves W and roads
T58 moves W and farms wheat
T59 farms wheat
T60 roads wheat
It is indeed 1 gem turn and two wheat turns ahead. I was trying to skimp on worker turns and end up with better/more roads.
Now that you point out that gain though, I did a back-of-the-napkin calculation of what those earlier tiles mean and we end up around 10 :food: + :hammers: up (and 6 :commerce:)
So I'll go with this plan.

Options for Washington builds
1) build a warrior instead growing to pop 4 by maximizing food and finishing the warrior
build settler and 2 pop whip with max overflow into granary in the capital

2) Or 2 pop washington's granary on T60 and put overflow into settler for 1 turn then switch to pyramids to regrow
finishing settler when at pop 5 and can 2 pop whip it.

I need to work out the details of option 1 and option 2. I like producing the settler and another warrior with washington better than granary first but I"m uncertain if it really is better.
You've given me an idea about a plan that partly builds granary, then whips settler/worker overflow onto granary to finish it. I'll go test it sometime tonight/tomorrow morning.

other thoughts
I like a workboat in Gems city before the granary.
Seems reasonable. A workboat would be handy sometime, but I guess when depends on what we want to do with it. Explore or use it towards a southern city? If the latter, then no rush to build it as we'll just end up paying maintenance.
 
Agreed, but I can improve on bc's plan:

Spoiler :
Effiel
T52, move SW & road and stop
T53 move SW & farm
T54 return to finish road
T55 road rice
T56 road rice
T57 farm rice
T58 farm rice
T59 finish rice
T60 move to gold

Fritz
T52 move W and SW
T53 move SW & farm
T54 farm
T55 farm
T56 finish farm (in time for it to be worked this turn at size 3)
T57 move to rice & farm
T58 farm rice
T59 move to Gmine and mine
T60 mine


I lose a worker turn, but spend 2 fewer on a nearly pointless road.
I like this plan best


Agreed, but if we are planning to work the gems throughout, then there is no rush to finish the wheat farm. One worker is enough. So I suggest:

Spoiler :
Karl
T52 moves 2NW
T53 moves 2SW
T54 gems
T55 gems
T56 gems
T57 moves W & roads
T58 moves W & farms wheat
T59 farms wheat
T60 farm

Goodyear
T54 moves PH
T55 moves W and roads & stops
T56 moves & finishes gems
T57 moves SE-SE
T58 chops
T59 chop
T60 done chop


This means that Goodyear is in position to chop the forest SE of Washington next, which speeds settling a city on the southern coast in terms of hammers and movement points. I think the fourth city is best between marble and clams, planning another post-Mysticism for the other two seafood and the culture bridge. Alternative thoughts anyone?
Either Marble+Crab or Northwest Pig+Clam seem best.
I'm less convinced about chopping the forest SSW of Washington here. We could chop the one NW of Washington instead, which would leave the worker equally able to get to the forest SE of Washington
 
You've given me an idea about a plan that partly builds granary, then whips settler/worker overflow onto granary to finish it. I'll go test it sometime tonight/tomorrow morning.

I think my plan 1a) is doing this.

Seems reasonable. A workboat would be handy sometime, but I guess when depends on what we want to do with it. Explore or use it towards a southern city? If the latter, then no rush to build it as we'll just end up paying maintenance.

I think plausible settler production times line up quite closely with ASAP workboat.
 
I'm less convinced about chopping the forest SSW of Washington here. We could chop the one NW of Washington instead, which would leave the worker equally able to get to the forest SE of Washington

Good point. Chopping the one NW of Washington requires us to follow up with road, or have to come back to the tile yet again to finish the job - but if we did wander off without improving further we might have the forest grow back. Also the worker is more flexible there if we have to change plan. Leaving the SSW forest intact or not has the same value as far as forest re-growth goes. So it's close either way.
 
Fritz
T52 move W and SW
T53 move SW & farm
T54 farm
T55 farm
T56 finish farm (in time for it to be worked this turn at size 3)
T57 move to rice & farm
T58 farm rice
T59 move to Gmine and mine
T60 mine

if you don't want my nearly useless road, hmmpft, then you can use Fritz to build a nearly useless farm for 1 turn S of stone city instead of just moving.

So T52 S and SW & farm plains and stop
T53 move to grassland river tile and farm
T54 etc...

Agreed, but if we are planning to work the gems throughout, then there is no rush to finish the wheat farm. One worker is enough. So I suggest:
Is working the gems throughout really better than working a 5 :food: 1 :hammers: tile instead? You regrow to 2 pop on wheat quite fast no?

Option 1a had only 76 stone-multiplied hammers on the Pyramids but 34 on the next settler, with 3 turns until unhappiness faded. Its settlers were produced T63 and T72. These settler times are earlier, but it is not clear to me that this is a definite advantage. Settling the fourth city three turns earlier before a workboat or GLH is available is not a big edge.

If you settle a city next to the pigs next, we have workers in the area to improve the pigs. A earlier settler does make this better. the T72 settler can be settled down south after the workboat is finished and is in place.
 
You've given me an idea about a plan that partly builds granary, then whips settler/worker overflow onto granary to finish it. I'll go test it sometime tonight/tomorrow morning.

One issue here is the timing of the whip-:mad: expiry and the growth to size 4. We can whip a granary T60, but the earliest whip of a settler to overflow and finish a granary is at T63, and the whip-:mad: expiry is T59. So assuming we'll be :mad: from whipping continuously for quite some time, there will be growth and tile use advantages to the granary-first plan, because it "wastes" fewer opportunities to have a non-zero value on the timer. This offsets the constraint of a slower settler (T65 or T66) created by that plan.
 
if you don't want my nearless useless road, hmmpft, then you can use Fritz to build a nearly useless farm for 1 turn S of stone city instead of just moving.

So T52 S and SW & farm plains and stop
T53 move to grassland river tile and farm
T54 etc...

It does beat wasting it entirely :)
 
Is working the gems throughout really better than working a 5 :food: 1 :hammers: tile instead? You regrow to 2 pop on wheat quite fast no?

I guess the point is that we're happy-ish working the gems tile for longer before the wheat is farmed, rather than rushing with both workers to get wheat up faster. Slower wheat and a faster settler is a trade-off worth considering either way. The timing of when we get sailing (and then hunting for the deer camp) is also a factor in this decision.

If you settle a city next to the pigs next, we have workers in the area to improve the pigs. A earlier settler does make this better. the T72 settler can be settled down south after the workboat is finished and is in place.

True. For the record, a fastest-possible workboat can plant T68.

There's some value in the fifth city being the southern culture bridge city (post-Mysticism). This is likely to be useful for coastal trade routes to AIs, rather than rely on no barb cities spawning on the spoke coasts.
 
PPP warrior suggestions

Columbus should head to his rally point via a full exploration of those hills on the western coast. We want to know what is out there before we make settling decisions. He should depart on this route the turn the settler moves to the settling site.

Malcolm moves off only when Columbus is nearly a full replacement for him. He should move to the tile N of elephant, because this is just as good for preventing barb unit spawn, and better for preventing barb city spawn.

Amundsen can head to silver only if we have a plan to ensure we're going to be happy in Stone City after two whips.
 
I guess the point is that we're happy-ish working the gems tile for longer before the wheat is farmed, rather than rushing with both workers to get wheat up faster. Slower wheat and a faster settler is a trade-off worth considering either way. The timing of when we get sailing (and then hunting for the deer camp) is also a factor in this decision.
Is chopping the forest just for the earlier workboat? If that is the case I would be happier with faster wheat.

I would like to see wheat improve earlier rather than chopping a forest for the capital. Getting wheat running and getting gems city up faster gives us options. I liked Kaitzilla's idea of 2 pop whipping a settler in Gems city, and if we get the wheat and deer up quickly that allows us to expand faster. And with the great lighthouse I think we want to expand quickly.

The cost is delaying a chop in the capital, however we might be able to get Fritz or Effiel to help there, or we can just chop the forests a bit later.

Meanwhile the workers road back towards gems, one staying behind to improve the deer. The other going to help the capital, chopping the forest NW of the capital and perhaps timing a road there for the settler produced by the capital, then that worker can go help that settler improve the pigs.
 
Lots of interesting ideas being throw around.

If we put hammers into pyramids in stone city, can we still build pyramids later in another city?

We need another warrior/archer/workboat from somewhere and gems city seems to be the best candidate since it is new. I personally feel Burke is going to die eventually and we need secondary scouting. The workboat is guaranteed to open up a route with east witches and can come back later to help out one of our cities, or explore further for possible trade routes with south witches. I like it best.



I had some nice results in Stone City by building granary as soon as possible and switching to Seafood, Stone, Ghill for 9:hammers:/turn. After 3 turns I was able to whip it complete and regrow on wet rice and seafood.

Both the capital and stone city already have 3 good sources of food. The shared farm is a good idea but I think the ghill first is better.

Trying to squeeze a warrior out of stone city instead of pyramids failure gold might be a bit better, since stone city seems to be having happy problems.
 
Is chopping the forest just for the earlier workboat? If that is the case I would be happier with faster wheat.

I would like to see wheat improve earlier rather than chopping a forest for the capital. Getting wheat running and getting gems city up faster gives us options. I liked Kaitzilla's idea of 2 pop whipping a settler in Gems city, and if we get the wheat and deer up quickly that allows us to expand faster. And with the great lighthouse I think we want to expand quickly.

Shrug, ok, but we're delaying the first two settlers in order to get faster growths and a faster third or fourth settler.

The cost is delaying a chop in the capital, however we might be able to get Fritz or Effiel to help there, or we can just chop the forests a bit later.

No, they don't have time to help the capital before about T73. I looked at that carefully. I tried to chop a forest for the capital after the rice farm, and couldn't get the GLH done on time.

Meanwhile the workers road back towards gems, one staying behind to improve the deer. The other going to help the capital, chopping the forest NW of the capital and perhaps timing a road there for the settler produced by the capital, then that worker can go help that settler improve the pigs.

A granary-first no-chops settler starts moving T67. After the wheat, if a worker puts a road on the jungle to speed the settler to pigs, that basically wastes the road on the plains between wheat and gems. Putting a road on the wheat after the farm makes things too slow to speed settling the pigs site on T68. So I suggest:

Spoiler :

Goodyear
T56 finish gems mine
T57 move jungle
T58 road
T59 road
T60 move to farm wheat
T61 farm wheat
T62 move to deer
T63 start deer camp (hopefully Hunting is done, else road first)
T64 camp
T65 camp
T66 camp
T67 camp (done about the time of the growth to size 3)
T68 road
T69 road
T70 move to chop in capital or speed pigs

Karl
T56 finish gems mine
T57 move W and farm and stop
T58 farm wheat
T59 farm wheat
T60 farm wheat
T61 farm wheat
T61 move E and farm and stop (or maybe two turns on wheat road instead)
T62 move gems and road
T63 road
T64 move PFH
T65 road
T66 road
T67 move towards pig
T68 pasture pig the turn the city founds


This gets the wheat farm up a turn slower, and the growth to size 2 after an immediate switch to wheat is a turn after when it would be with the earlier wheat farm. Growth to 3 is on the same turn, though. We've also got two turns on a plains farm later if we ever want it(!)

For that matter, only having one worker ever work on the wheat farm only slows the wheat by two turns, and that is also only one turn slower growing to size 2 (if we switch when wheat is farmed), and also a turn slower growing to size 3.
 
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