Somehow this made me laugh. Why is it unacceptable that those two fight?
Edit: just loaded your save. very nice situation you got there
The french city on the desert island is funny. As if there was no better land. Guess he was just realy slow.
SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Somehow this made me laugh. Why is it unacceptable that those two fight?
Edit: just loaded your save. very nice situation you got there
The french city on the desert island is funny. As if there was no better land. Guess he was just realy slow.
adrianj
Deity
Could make it more problematic forcing one to capitulate to us.
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Looks like good work, nocho! 
Knights and similar against longbows without lots of siege does tend to be very bloody for the attacker. As long as we have enough strength to keep pushing forward, though, we don't really care about losses.
Just what I was thinking.
I am no expert on how capitulation works, though. If this would interfere with capitulation then we might need to do something.
The expansion rate -- or rather the lack of expansion -- by several of the AIs has definitely puzzled me in this game. Some seemed to do just fine: Suleiman and Catherine both expanded pretty well. But Peter and Napoleon, and to a lesser extent Louis, really seemed to struggle to plant more cities. The whole eastern area with the Christian holy city, with lots of open land south of it, was not even touched by the two French AIs. Some of that land was poor, true, but there was some decent land there. They just seemed to ignore it.
Very odd for immortal difficulty.
Knights and similar against longbows without lots of siege does tend to be very bloody for the attacker. As long as we have enough strength to keep pushing forward, though, we don't really care about losses.
Just what I was thinking.
I am no expert on how capitulation works, though. If this would interfere with capitulation then we might need to do something.The expansion rate -- or rather the lack of expansion -- by several of the AIs has definitely puzzled me in this game. Some seemed to do just fine: Suleiman and Catherine both expanded pretty well. But Peter and Napoleon, and to a lesser extent Louis, really seemed to struggle to plant more cities. The whole eastern area with the Christian holy city, with lots of open land south of it, was not even touched by the two French AIs. Some of that land was poor, true, but there was some decent land there. They just seemed to ignore it.
Very odd for immortal difficulty.
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Does anyone remember where in the thread we got the official message about the hidden requirement? I want to recheck the wording. I know at least one member of each pair must be eliminated/vassalized. But does that vassalization have to be by us? What would happen if Vicky vassalized to Churchill (or the other way around) while we were fighting them both? Would that count, or does it have to be vassalization by us?
If we are that close to the land threshold, then letting the English fight until one of them vassalizes to us/the other/anyone might be enough. We could always pound on Julius if we need just a bit more land.
And oh yeah -- hi AJ!
Good to see you back! How was Australia?
one of each pair has to be eliminated or vassalized
but it doesn't matter whose vassal they are
but it doesn't matter whose vassal they are
Spoiler :
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Thanks, Deckhand! Not sure if things will work out that way, but it is good to keep the possibility in mind.
Maybe we should just jump the bandwagon and help Churchill vs Vicky. The sooner she'll be killed or vassalled by either Churchill or us the better. Seems we don't need her land. We're actually just 5.5% away from dom, so vassaling AC will already bring us awfully close. What worries me most right now is triggering dom too early TBH. 
Somehow this made me laugh. Why is it unacceptable that those two fight?
Edit: just loaded your save. very nice situation you got there
The french city on the desert island is funny. As if there was no better land. Guess he was just realy slow.
Very unlikely to happen in this game but you sometimes get a message when civ's refuse to capitulate as they are scared of theirs or yours enemy (not sure which).
Domination limit. Yep if Churchill vassals Vic that would work for the requirement. Save us some trouble and would be worried about domination limit as well. Perhaps we get ourselves set up for the religion requirement before vassaling AC?
Played 3 more turns to 1110AD.
- We captured Rome and AC is now willing to capitulate.
- We're in a position to capture, or better, raze the Tao holy city this turn or next.
- Great majority of cities has 2 religions. The 3 Roman cities just 1, but might be given back. Bud and Islam cities each just 1; islam miss just landed in Bud, bud miss failed in Islam. Islam could be given away though, but whipped another bud miss just now. Confu holy city has hindu miss next door, but the city can be given to Cathy in case of need.
- If I didn't miscount this is the temple situation (please revise):
Our temple count is 39. We have 2 settled Great Priests. We have 26 temples in the queue of which 3 in Roman cities. 39 + 2*4 + (26-3)=70! Note some cities have a 2nd temple in queue too.
- Churchill is grinding away at Vick. We could help a bit.
Boats in the Roman/English straights now.
- A switch to US now to rushbuy the temples with long building times and low pop will be in order.
- Finish time will depend on Vicky's demise. Note Julius at war with AC too IIRC, so at least take note of that. Otherwise we might wait until Vicky's fate is sealed to vassal AC and gift his cities back and win. I'm supposing this is enough for domination.
The end is nigh.
- We captured Rome and AC is now willing to capitulate.
- We're in a position to capture, or better, raze the Tao holy city this turn or next.
- Great majority of cities has 2 religions. The 3 Roman cities just 1, but might be given back. Bud and Islam cities each just 1; islam miss just landed in Bud, bud miss failed in Islam. Islam could be given away though, but whipped another bud miss just now. Confu holy city has hindu miss next door, but the city can be given to Cathy in case of need.
- If I didn't miscount this is the temple situation (please revise):
Our temple count is 39. We have 2 settled Great Priests. We have 26 temples in the queue of which 3 in Roman cities. 39 + 2*4 + (26-3)=70!
Note some cities have a 2nd temple in queue too.- Churchill is grinding away at Vick. We could help a bit.
Boats in the Roman/English straights now.- A switch to US now to rushbuy the temples with long building times and low pop will be in order.
- Finish time will depend on Vicky's demise. Note Julius at war with AC too IIRC, so at least take note of that. Otherwise we might wait until Vicky's fate is sealed to vassal AC and gift his cities back and win. I'm supposing this is enough for domination.
Spoiler :
The end is nigh.
Ronnie1
Deity
Had a very busy few days at work. Catching up now!
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Things are looking very good, nocho!
I think we revolt to US immediately and start buying temples in the cities that will take longest to complete. We need to smash Victoria so that she will vassalize to either us or Churchill -- this may actually be the step that takes longest. Although she has very few defenders in the one city we can see right now, so hopefully it will not be difficult. We have to wait on vassalizing Augustus until everything else, including Victoria, is ready. Watch the domination threshold!
One potential BIG problem: Napoleon is in WHEOOHRN mode.
If he suddenly rolls a stack over our borders and takes a couple cities, we will have trouble completing all our objectives. And we do not have much in the way of defense along his borders. May need to rush buy some defenders to be safe. Officially Victoria is his worst enemy, but he is annoyed with us and we share a border so I am guessing we are his target. Or would our strength rating be enough to deter him? Not much of that strength is actually anywhere near him.
Here is the current status of the objective list -- items in bold are not yet completed.
Game Objectives
1) Achieve victory other than conquest - Not yet, planning domination; need just a little more land
2) At least one civ from each pair must be eliminated or vassalized (by anybody)
2a) Ottoman - Done, Suleiman eliminated
2b) Russian - Done, Peter eliminated
2c) French - Done, Louis eliminated
2d) Roman - Augustus willing to capitulate to us
2e) English
3) No one else can control a holy city - 6 of 7 so far
3a) Buddhist - Owned by us
3b) Hindu - Owned by us
3c) Jewish - Razed
3d) Confucian - Owned by us
3e) Christian - Owned by us
3f) Taoist - Currently barb, troops adjacent, will be razed
3g) Islamic - Owned by us
4) All of our cities must have at least 2 religions - Just a few cities to go....
3 holy cities with 1 religion, missionaries en route
3 recently conquered cities with 1 religion, planned to hand back over to vassals
All other cities have 2+ religions
5) Have at least 70 temples in our cities - 47 of 70 temples built so far
2 settled great prophets == 8 temples
39 temples built
26 temples in queue (although 3 in cities planned to be given back to vassals)
6) Enter and remain in Free Religion once Liberalism is learned - tech not learned so no need (so far)
We are just about there, and faster than I expected. (nocho was right!) But we still need to deal with England (one way or another), and make sure Napoleon does not spoil our party. Smashing Victoria as quickly as we can looks to be our limiting factor right now. And if we could get a few more troops into our border cities with Napoleon that might be wise as well.
Also, could everyone please double-check the objective list above? Make sure I did not miss anything? After our technical rules violation last game I would hate to slip up and get disqualified again.
I think we revolt to US immediately and start buying temples in the cities that will take longest to complete. We need to smash Victoria so that she will vassalize to either us or Churchill -- this may actually be the step that takes longest. Although she has very few defenders in the one city we can see right now, so hopefully it will not be difficult. We have to wait on vassalizing Augustus until everything else, including Victoria, is ready. Watch the domination threshold!
One potential BIG problem: Napoleon is in WHEOOHRN mode.
If he suddenly rolls a stack over our borders and takes a couple cities, we will have trouble completing all our objectives. And we do not have much in the way of defense along his borders. May need to rush buy some defenders to be safe. Officially Victoria is his worst enemy, but he is annoyed with us and we share a border so I am guessing we are his target. Or would our strength rating be enough to deter him? Not much of that strength is actually anywhere near him.Here is the current status of the objective list -- items in bold are not yet completed.
Game Objectives
1) Achieve victory other than conquest - Not yet, planning domination; need just a little more land
2) At least one civ from each pair must be eliminated or vassalized (by anybody)
2a) Ottoman - Done, Suleiman eliminated
2b) Russian - Done, Peter eliminated
2c) French - Done, Louis eliminated
2d) Roman - Augustus willing to capitulate to us
2e) English
3) No one else can control a holy city - 6 of 7 so far
3a) Buddhist - Owned by us
3b) Hindu - Owned by us
3c) Jewish - Razed
3d) Confucian - Owned by us
3e) Christian - Owned by us
3f) Taoist - Currently barb, troops adjacent, will be razed
3g) Islamic - Owned by us
4) All of our cities must have at least 2 religions - Just a few cities to go....
3 holy cities with 1 religion, missionaries en route
3 recently conquered cities with 1 religion, planned to hand back over to vassals
All other cities have 2+ religions
5) Have at least 70 temples in our cities - 47 of 70 temples built so far
2 settled great prophets == 8 temples
39 temples built
26 temples in queue (although 3 in cities planned to be given back to vassals)
6) Enter and remain in Free Religion once Liberalism is learned - tech not learned so no need (so far)
We are just about there, and faster than I expected. (nocho was right!
) But we still need to deal with England (one way or another), and make sure Napoleon does not spoil our party. Smashing Victoria as quickly as we can looks to be our limiting factor right now. And if we could get a few more troops into our border cities with Napoleon that might be wise as well.Also, could everyone please double-check the objective list above? Make sure I did not miss anything? After our technical rules violation last game I would hate to slip up and get disqualified again.
adrianj
Deity
I don't know what our Power Ratio with Napoleon is, but if it's more than 1.8 then I can't see how he could be mad enough to target us.
At the Potential Victims pass the lowest hurdle is for a Total War on the first pass for a nearby neighbour. He needs to test: OttomanPower < 3/2*FrenchPower*MaxNearPowerRatio. His MaxNearPowerRatio is 1.2, so after some rearranging we would need OttomanPower/FrenchPower < 1.8.
This is not even considering our Vassals power that gets added to our own in these calculations.
Logic for subsequent passes have a more difficult test: ratio of 1.5 for distant Total War, 1.2 for a Limited War and 0.67 for a DogPile war. DogPile war could be a possibility, since that would actually add his power to our enemy's (AC's) power, though I still can't imagine that helping him.
As far as I know, the only power information the AI uses is our Power. The actual arrangement of our units, ie, all units on other side of map with few defenders, doesn't come into it.
It could be that Napoleon is thinking of dogpiling in to AC. The WHEOOHRN might disappear after we vassalize AC.
Disclaimer: What if I'm wrong? Maybe building a few defending units is still prudent
At the Potential Victims pass the lowest hurdle is for a Total War on the first pass for a nearby neighbour. He needs to test: OttomanPower < 3/2*FrenchPower*MaxNearPowerRatio. His MaxNearPowerRatio is 1.2, so after some rearranging we would need OttomanPower/FrenchPower < 1.8.
This is not even considering our Vassals power that gets added to our own in these calculations.
Logic for subsequent passes have a more difficult test: ratio of 1.5 for distant Total War, 1.2 for a Limited War and 0.67 for a DogPile war. DogPile war could be a possibility, since that would actually add his power to our enemy's (AC's) power, though I still can't imagine that helping him.
As far as I know, the only power information the AI uses is our Power. The actual arrangement of our units, ie, all units on other side of map with few defenders, doesn't come into it.
It could be that Napoleon is thinking of dogpiling in to AC. The WHEOOHRN might disappear after we vassalize AC.
Disclaimer: What if I'm wrong? Maybe building a few defending units is still prudent
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
I hope you are correct, adrianj. Is there any chance the power ratios fell into the "possible" range, even for a turn? Once the AI decides it does not matter if the power ratio shifts later.
Probably we are OK, and Napoleon is thinking of attacking Augustus, or Julius, or Victoria. But he could really throw a big wrench into our plans if he attacks us...so I worry.
Probably we are OK, and Napoleon is thinking of attacking Augustus, or Julius, or Victoria. But he could really throw a big wrench into our plans if he attacks us...so I worry.
Ronnie1
Deity
We can upgrade units near Nappy if we have too. We can throw a defender for each city in their respective ques now. We have options, so I am not overly concerned. I also do not believe he will attack us in the short run.
Looks great nocho!
We know for sure that we can gift back cities after the win during our save turn correct?
I count 72 Temples built or que'd + the 2 settled Priests. Margin for error accomplished.
Looks great nocho!
We know for sure that we can gift back cities after the win during our save turn correct?
I count 72 Temples built or que'd + the 2 settled Priests. Margin for error accomplished.
Looking very good Nocho..
Couple of things for the next (and last) person up.
These are my thoughts anyway..
Make sure we don't trip domination to early!!!!
There is a very good chance Viccie will cap to Churchill next turn if she loses her capital. That would solve one of our problems. If not we have the forces in Rome to attack her and hopefully cap her very quickly so we should start moving in that direction.
Change to US this turn. I would probably buy conf missionaries in Rostov and St Pete and English missionaries in SL and BC plus probably Copper Summit so we have a few options with missionairies for the current Roman cities which only have 1 religion if we need to keep them.
Stop all buildings and change to wealth. There are a few mm things we can do here to improve our cash flow. E.g remove all specs from Tours and put to wealth building on hammer tiles.
Beg gold from Cathie this turn.
Tech I would still trade banking - Cathie for paper which will give us a possibility of stopping the war with Viccie if we need to.
Lastly make sure we don't trip domination!!!!!!
Pretty certain Nap won't be going for us. It will be Viccie. Can't see any problems there though installing an odd Lb build in a few cities close to him wouldn't hurt.
Lastly make sure we don't trip domination!!!!!! :lol
Couple of things for the next (and last) person up.
These are my thoughts anyway..
Make sure we don't trip domination to early!!!!
There is a very good chance Viccie will cap to Churchill next turn if she loses her capital. That would solve one of our problems. If not we have the forces in Rome to attack her and hopefully cap her very quickly so we should start moving in that direction.
Change to US this turn. I would probably buy conf missionaries in Rostov and St Pete and English missionaries in SL and BC plus probably Copper Summit so we have a few options with missionairies for the current Roman cities which only have 1 religion if we need to keep them.
Stop all buildings and change to wealth. There are a few mm things we can do here to improve our cash flow. E.g remove all specs from Tours and put to wealth building on hammer tiles.
Beg gold from Cathie this turn.
Tech I would still trade banking - Cathie for paper which will give us a possibility of stopping the war with Viccie if we need to.
Lastly make sure we don't trip domination!!!!!!
Pretty certain Nap won't be going for us. It will be Viccie. Can't see any problems there though installing an odd Lb build in a few cities close to him wouldn't hurt.
Lastly make sure we don't trip domination!!!!!! :lol
Well, let me add we shouldn't trip domination too early.
Can't see Nap going for us either, IIRC we have a power rating of more than 2 on him for some time. He did get or is close to gunpowder though so he got his funny UU. Maybe that makes him feel bold.
Vick capping would be excellent. Then all what remains is spreading to the final cities and rushing all those temples.
Anyone feels like doing a tilecount to see if capping AC and gifting his cities back is enough?
Lastly, I'm not sure if AC capping to JC could be a risk. In that case if possible we should buy the latter out of war.
Oh, we also shouldn't trip dom too early.
Can't see Nap going for us either, IIRC we have a power rating of more than 2 on him for some time. He did get or is close to gunpowder though so he got his funny UU. Maybe that makes him feel bold.
Vick capping would be excellent. Then all what remains is spreading to the final cities and rushing all those temples.
Anyone feels like doing a tilecount to see if capping AC and gifting his cities back is enough?
Lastly, I'm not sure if AC capping to JC could be a risk. In that case if possible we should buy the latter out of war.
Oh, we also shouldn't trip dom too early.
Ronnie1
Deity
Can we gift the cities back on the turn after we get the victory screen?
If yes, then what we really need to do is make sure we get the Temple count right, gift any cities that don't have 2 religions after we win, making sure that the second does not effect the first.
We will have met every other measure once Vic goes vassal and AC vassals to us, correct?
If yes, then what we really need to do is make sure we get the Temple count right, gift any cities that don't have 2 religions after we win, making sure that the second does not effect the first.
We will have met every other measure once Vic goes vassal and AC vassals to us, correct?
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
See the list above.
Get a second religion into the remaining holy cities we own (or gift them away), attack the Taoist holy city and raze it (should be straightforward, but the RNG can do funny things sometimes), get the temples bought/built, and watch the domination limit. That is pretty much it.
We may need to "encourage" Victoria to capitulate by throwing some troops at her cities. We can't rely on Churchill to manage it himself, the AI is just so unreliable on these things.
Remember the holy cities can only be given away to our vassals, so if Church vassals Vick we can't gift Islamabad to either.
In case of Tao, attack and raze next turn, when there's 2 extra attackers available (1 from boat). An unlucky roll now might complicate matters.
In case of Tao, attack and raze next turn, when there's 2 extra attackers available (1 from boat). An unlucky roll now might complicate matters.
