SGOTM 23 - Phoenix Rising

Thanks, but the credit goes to the entire team. Elitetroops in particular has done a lot of the work in the later stages (July and onwards). Imagine being stuck with Gumbolt all by yourself for an entire month.... :scared: :shake:

Maybe we'll get you next time -- we've warmed up now! :)
It was my first real SGOTM experience so hopefully I picked up some things along the way for next time too. Looking forward to reading your thread.
Ofc, didn't mean to imply it was only you. I just remember some eternity ago there was a deity BOTM that only you won... ;)
 
And while the finish is still fresh I'll take the time to thank the team for 4 good months before I start picking the game apart. I really did enjoy the game even if it's a big shame I was gone for so much of it.

Thanks to Gumbolt for being a great captain and motivator. I think you have been the one constant throughout the entire game while others have come and gone a bit. We'd struggle to finish in time and keep the game going without you! :)

Thanks to BiC for being a great sparring partner in the early game when discussing various options. You kept me in check and enhanced my ideas. I think we worked very well together -- hopefully the feeling is mutual.

Thanks again to elitetroops for truly carrying this game in the later stages. Whatever analysis I did after returning from holiday in July was very shallow compared to previous. You did the nitty-gritty stuff and we wouldn't remain competitive without it. Examples would be in-depth army movement and GP timings.

Thanks to Megalurker and CC for early game ideas and discussion. Also thanks to shulec for popping in with comments every now and then.

It's a pity yyeah couldn't participate. I was actually looking forward to playing with him due to his enthusiasm for the game. In that sense he's much like you, Gumbolt. ;)

What is this? The Oscars? I'm going overboard. :hammer2:

:thanx:
 
And while the finish is still fresh I'll take the time to thank the team for 4 good months before I start picking the game apart.
A big thanks to you too Rusten! You and BiC did a massive job on early game micro!

I'm still waiting for you to pick the game apart. ;) I also want to have a look at some TA saved for comparison when I get back home tomorrow.

And spending a month with gumbolt really isn't that bad. As long as he doesn't put up signs. [emoji14]
 
Do we know when the game time runs out? I assumed midday UK time 01st September? Seems to me that Xteam are far from done here.
 
It's usually midnight in the last timezone, somewhere in the east pacific. At least in HoF gauntlets.
 
I've not yet compared saves with TA at various points. I think elitetroops wants to do it ;) :deal:

Things we could improve or did poorly (big picture):
It's not going to be a very long list as we played a pretty good game -- but there were still some problems.
I'm not going to mention the AD years, because we had already dug our grave then. These were the critical big picture mistakes as I see it:

  • Much too late first GA
I think even for a longer game we should've had our first GA sooner. I remember us thinking this during the game a while before we started our GA, but at that point it was almost too late. We should've had the first one without MoM. We finished teching even before our second golden age was finished I think (at least if we skipped things like MT) – :blush: embarassing and a huge waste of resources!!

In this particular game I think not getting an academy at all was better. It was not a big mistake in itself, but at least we should've found a way to generate our 2nd GS sooner (or use 2nd GS for academy instead of 1st). Reason being that the surrounding land was sooooo rich which resulted in the insane pace of the game. At ~800 BC we were in a position to realise this due to our scouting and capturing of the Pyramids+GL. We should've altered our plans. This goes into the next point →
  • GPP – too little too late
We talked about bulbing CS, guilds, banking, etc in the early stages, but little of this happened in the game. Bamboozled by the ridiculous speed of the game we were teching so fast that there was no time to aquire the GPs to bulb the techs with. If we had made other plans for Paris then this city could've helped produce many of the neccessary GM/GS instead of running cottages. If I were to play again I'd use Paris for GPP, and in that case the academy is poor.

  • Workers – too few too late
I remember noticing this clearly when I returned from Ukraine. We got our workers much too late this game. As a result it took way too long to get workshops planted everywhere and our forests were standing idle for centuries. This really halted our production. I think we should've added workers before we finished off Germany. Without workshops we couldn't keep up production while also getting GPP (and this game required both). Not having the required workers meant a need to remain in slavery, and this pushed back our GPP. Looking back on the game it's sickening how little we used specialists considering that we had representation all along.

So for next time I'd say we should aim to be even more flexible. Plans are fluid and can be tweaked. Reconsider plans whenever given valuable new information. Coming up with a long-term strategy is absolutely necessary, but we should still question it often. We did alter our plans at points this game too, for instance ignoring Portugal and striking Egypt first, but there's always room for improvement. Economically I don't think we changed much throughout the game.

I thought this post was going to be long, but looking at it now it still doesn't look half as long as XTeam's posts.
 
Oh, I didn't realize we can view saves of other teams already. :)

Totally agree on the Golden Ages. Should have done the 1 person GA as soon as we got first GS. We even did bureau/OR and religion switch outside of GA right before we got the GS. Could have waited a couple of turns with those. We did indeed finish teching during second golden age. By the time we realized this would happen, we were 1 turn from completing Taj Mahal. That was quite a waste of hammers...

Agree with Academy and GP comment as well. Should have skipped Academy completely. We should also have skipped a ton of other buildings.

I didn't yet do any in depth analysis of the TA game, but had a quick look at the latest save on the server:
Spoiler :

No forges, no courthouses, no monuments. Oh, and also note that only 2 workers built. I do not know if they set up some worker stealing factory somewhere, but they did capture 11 workers more than we did over the course of their short game.

Other thing to note there is that they produced 4 more great people than we did. We did consider the option to bulb Railroad, but quickly discarded the thought as GS bulbs are so much better. Only we didn't get much chance to do those GS bulbs. In the end, I think RR bulb wouldn't have been that strong though. They libbed SP and used 3 GMs to be able to 1 turn RR. We 1 turned Steam Power even without bulbs. And 1 turned Steel and Lib right after that so bulbs could not have made the finish any faster.
 
So for next time I'd say we should aim to be even more flexible. Plans are fluid and can be tweaked. Reconsider plans whenever given valuable new information. Coming up with a long-term strategy is absolutely necessary, but we should still question it often.
I consider this the most important lesson I learned about SGs early on. Every SG is unique, every turn is unique. I think the best scenario strategy usually wins and the sooner it's developed the better. But critical is adapting the strategy throughout.

In this SG, I'm not sure the best scenario strategy won. TA might have won on experience. Note that originally we were planning our first GA for ~T112 with MoM for a ~T135 finish. On T101 we re-evaluated and started our GA T103 for a T125 finish. Ended up with T126.
 
Lib 400AD, pick Railroad as free tech beginning of turn 425AD, t132.
I see. Then I think you have to be a bit careful making comparisons for different turn times:
We 1 turned Steam Power even without bulbs. And 1 turned Steel and Lib right after that so bulbs could not have made the finish any faster.
There are two principles I try to keep in mind with fastest finish games:
  • equifinality
  • correct estimation of effort
One of the best examples of equifinality in CIV in the early game is REX versus teching versus an Oracle slingshot. PR and TA took fairly different paths to roughly equivalent results. We settled different spots, we started with different techs, TA got Alphabet many turns sooner, and yet you seemed to have achieved parity and even went beyond our tech pace (someone needs to do an actual comparison to verify that).

Correct estimation of effort is what TA did relatively well and that's where Rusten's and your critiques of PR fit in. How to balance hammer output with teching? When to start the GAs? This scenario was excellent in my view particularly because is involved a very complex set of variables to balance.
 
Yes lost turns to anarchy did not help here. Even that only allows for 2 turns. I settled the academy way too quickly. :( Should of listened to Elite more at this point.

We talked about worker stealing quite a lot early on but the reality we captured virtually none. Even when declaring we didn't really look to capture workers by positioning units. Our warrior was always in the wrong place early on. BSP planned Germany well.

I agree going for English and Portugal too soon. We could of drafted these cities and pumped out units to quickly take out those 2 Ai late on. Even at the end I think we stopped pumping out units 1-2 turns too soon. Although I am not sure how many more turns an extra 10-20 units would of really saved us? The path south could of been handled by HA. Hmmm.

Interesting the building count for TA. Did they build the parth or capture it?? Not suprised at the lack of forges/court houses given their finish date. LTC is not a builder at heart. It took us an age just to find marble. So perhaps they captured it??

In term of GP they stole philosophy too? So this perhaps helps explain their GP strategy being ahead. Paris as a GP site now looks more interesting given we had mids and given the likely 475ad finish. Growth vs specialist? Hmmm.

Looking back it's always easier to say we should of done this. I think in the heat of the moment you have to stop and look at what is really happening in a game. Losing Rusten and Bic in July was a big loss. We also had many new players this game and that made working out how the team should function a bit more harder. We had a lot of players that many rated quite highly. All new players at times are a gamble unless you truly know what you are getting and how they work in teams. Especially on SG games where pressure can be high. Pressure pots like Memphis/Berlin and Moscow showed this. We pulled through here.

8 turns behind a seasoned team like TA is a great result. Many other teams finished at least 20-80 turns behind them. Of course we were always aiming for gold.
 
Just in case you're intrested: After initial testing, these were the only changes I made to the map:

Spoiler :
New map file March14th

Changes:

Germany:
-pre-built mine (copper hill)
-extra archer
Goal: increase early defence without improving the land that can be conquered by teams

Jerusalem:
-now has walls+castle+citadel+barracks+totempole (didnt have citadel)
Goal: make this extra hard to conquer, hoping AI doesnt even try


Greece:
-pre-built mine (empty hill)
-extra archer
-pre-built monument
Goal: increase early defence without improving the land that can be conquered by teams, culture defence against improved Jerusalem


Istanbul:
-Pre-built library
Goal: culture defence against Jerusalem (has even more culture now) and help turkey to tech quicker so it is more of a challenge to take istanbul later


I hoped to stop teams from totally rushing the eastern neighbours. I didnt want to see russia or egypt fall before they can show their strenght
 
We talked about worker stealing quite a lot early on but the reality we captured virtually none. Even when declaring we didn't really look to capture workers by positioning units. Our warrior was always in the wrong place early on. BSP planned Germany well.
We stole our first worker on ~T47 and it was a prime target for us. BSP made it very difficult.

Interesting the building count for TA. Did they build the parth or capture it?? Not suprised at the lack of forges/court houses given their finish date. LTC is not a builder at heart. It took us an age just to find marble. So perhaps they captured it??
We built Parth, MoM, and HG. We highly prioritized exploration and after locating Mehmed's marble, we somewhat prioritized capturing it. The first goal of our exploration, though, we because we beelined Alphabet on T48. By then, we knew 11 of the 12 AIs.

In term of GP they stole philosophy too? So this perhaps helps explain their GP strategy being ahead. Paris as a GP site now looks more interesting given we had mids and given the likely 475ad finish. Growth vs specialist? Hmmm.
We intended to steal Philo, but I blew. We delayed capturing Alexandra and monitored its demo data to know more or less when it would pop the GS for Philo. But then I forgot to gift Alpha and the GS got settled instead. :( So we bulbed it just when we started our first GA on T103. We started our GA with the Music Great Artist.

We used 8 cities, iirc, to spawn GPs during our two GAs, from T103-T123.
 
Just in case you're intrested: After initial testing, these were the only changes I made to the map:

Spoiler :
New map file March14th

Changes:

Germany:
-pre-built mine (copper hill)
-extra archer
Goal: increase early defence without improving the land that can be conquered by teams

Jerusalem:
-now has walls+castle+citadel+barracks+totempole (didnt have citadel)
Goal: make this extra hard to conquer, hoping AI doesnt even try


Greece:
-pre-built mine (empty hill)
-extra archer
-pre-built monument
Goal: increase early defence without improving the land that can be conquered by teams, culture defence against improved Jerusalem


Istanbul:
-Pre-built library
Goal: culture defence against Jerusalem (has even more culture now) and help turkey to tech quicker so it is more of a challenge to take istanbul later


I hoped to stop teams from totally rushing the eastern neighbours. I didnt want to see russia or egypt fall before they can show their strenght
SO the only other changes were the religions and wonders?
 
No, these are the changes between version 1.0 which was tested and version 1.1 which you played.

I wanted to say: I'm glad you liked it because it worked just as intended right from the start :) Few changes were needed from the initial concept
 
My first idea for the map was to have a huge continent. It would have long mountain ranges, big inland seas and ice fields north and south (together forming a labyrinth style world). You would have started with one settler at the eastern sea and one at the western sea. Your goals would have been to settle both cities within 5 turns and the only goal afterwards would have been to connect both by an unbroken railroad track. I loved the idea because I love the era of railroads,but it had the flaw that if I didnt make the map 100% symetrical, the decission where to have the palace would be a game breaker, and you couldn't possibly have all info to make a good decission.
 
Turn 83. for TA.

Techs - IW, COL, Currency, Alphabet, teching Aesth. All other first 3 tier techs aaprt from MC and PH. 120BPT at 100%. 513G -41GPT.

Units 8 HA, 3 Chariots, 4 galleys, 1 axe, 1 spear, 2 spies and 11 workers.

Eight cities.
Paris S6- Stables, barracks, granary.
Horse city S4- Granary
Fur S1 - granary.
Cow city S4 - Granary
Alexandria - 2 settled GS. Academy. TGL
Thebes S6 - granary Mids. 3 turns revolt left.
Athens - S3 oracle, 2 settled GP. 4 turns of revolt left.

War wise they had also taken 2 German cities and gifted one to Hatty.
They had reached far east and found both Ottoman's marble.

12 AI met.
Pretty impressive.


Turn 83 for PR.

Missing Med, mono, PH and MC from first 3 tiers of techs.
IW, COL, maths, alphabet. TA had more beakers in next tech. (TA are ahead tech wise here.)
100% science 140 beakers per turn. (PR 20 advantage here.) 453 gold. -46GPT.

Units.
12 HA, 3 galleys and 9 workers. (TA ahead on galleys but unit strength PR have edge?)

Cities
Paris - S5 - Barrack granary.
Horse - S5 Barracks, granary and LH.
Wheat S3 - Barracks Granary
Fur - S4 Barracks, granary and LH.
Gemmy - S1 - No buildings.
(Even at this stage our core cities had more buildings.)
Alexandria S2 - Academy - granary 2 settled GS.
Thebes S7 - Out of revolt. - Mids. 11bpt.
Jerusalem S1
Athens - S3 - 1 turn from coming out of revolt.

PR had met all 12 Ai too.

We may have had Jerusalem but TA had already dealt with 2 of the German cities with chariots? Likely stole quite a few workers here?

We had found bridge to far east and were scouting China's capital. Already scouted India. TA had scouted more of southern Ai.

Overall the 2 games were finely balanced on T83. PR had 2 more HA to follow next turn albeit we had HA guarding cities in Africa.

Russia had 8 cities compared to TA 10 at this point. Germans 4 cities in our game. We appear to have reach Thebes/Athens a few turns sooner.
 
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