[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

Kaitzilla · Sep 18, 2020

I need to standardize a few things to compare two different games for the purposes of a tech race.

Only certain techs are needed to win the game. :think:

Phoenix Rising needed Theology to build AP, but Home Slices did not.
Neither team needed Mass Media to win a military victory, but to win a UN victory or build The Great Lighthouse they both did.

Here is the list of the techs needed to win a conquest victory with Eiffel Tower for this map.

Tech :science:

Fishing + Agriculture + Hunting were starting techs
Mysticism (78)
Mining (78)
The Wheel (93)
Priesthood (93) unlocks temples
Pottery (124)
Meditation (124)
Masonry (124)
Polytheism (156)
Sailing (156)
Bronze Working (187)
Writing (187)
Literature (312)
Iron Working (312)
Math (390)
Aesthetics (468)
Drama (468)
Alphabet (468)
Monarchy (468)
Code of Laws (546)
Calendar (546)
Construction (546)
Currency (624)
Compass (624)
Metal Casting (702)
Music (936)
Optics (936)
Paper (936)
Machinery (1092)
Feudalism (1092)
Banking (1092)
Civil Service (1248)
Philosophy (1248)
Engineering (1560)
Guilds (1560)
Gunpowder (1872)
Liberalism (2184)
Economics (2184)
Printing Press (2496)
Corporation (2496)
Nationalism (2808)
Education (2808)
Chemistry (2808)
Replaceable Parts (2808)
Astronomy (3120)
Military Tradition (3120)
Constitution (3120)
Scientific Method (3744)
Communism (4368)
Steel (4368)
Steam Power (4992)
Biology (5616)
Physics (6240)
Refrigeration (6240)
Electricity (7020)
Assembly Line (7800)
Radio (9360)
Superconductors (10140)
Industrialism (10140)

All required techs combined totals 131426 :whew:

This is for Conquest or Culture victory teams that built Eiffel Tower.

Animal Husbandry, Archery, and Horseback Riding are completely unnecessary.

Any team that tried to build Apostolic Palace for diplomatic victory will require Monotheism (187) -> Theology (780) to be added to their necessary techs.

Any team that built the Great Lighthouse instead of Eiffel Tower will require Mass Media (5616) to be added to their necessary techs.
Any team that built United Nations instead of Eiffel Tower for diplomatic victory will require Mass Media (5616) to be added to their necessary techs.

Team Phoenix Rising, which liked early Great Lighthouse and Apostolic Palace victory, required 138009 to complete their path to victory.
They can have this bird-that-is-on-fire to help me read easier.

Team Home Slices, which liked United Nations victory, required 137042 to complete their path to victory.
They can have this Homey the Clown to help me read easier.

For tech race purposes, I'll highlight their progress with % completed and highlight the needed techs achieved in blue.
It will further be divided into self-teched vs. traded with AI to highlight domestic teching progress and achievements on the diplomatic and trade fronts.
I will also try to keep track of any techs that were partially completed and then bought from AI.

City Naming Convention
Since both teams settled in the exact same spots but named their cities differently.. :twitch:

1) Capital
2) West City (with the cow)
3) East City (near Sitting Bull)
4) South City (lovely river city with 2 clams)
5) Island City (stone + marble)
6) Northwest City (quad food)
7) Far NW City (whale + near Peter)

**Edit**
Thanks for correcting me on Masonry Lymond and Gumbolt.

Kaitzilla · Sep 18, 2020

Postgame Analysis Part 2
Link to Team Saves

Link to SGOTM 26 Game Rules (Requirements for Victory)

Link to Postgame Analysis Part 1

(Hold down Control on keyboard and left click links to open a new tab for easier viewing)

====================================

Homeslice Turnset Report up to T71 and up to T75
Screenshots on T75 were not taken, so here are some now

Spoiler :

Phoenix Rising on Turn 75

Spoiler :

Phoenix Rising teched Mathematics and put a bit into Alphabet by Turn 75.
Their teching assets are 169 :gold:

and no great people.
Population is at 25 with 5 workers.
On Turn 75, their tech path to victory is at 1463 :science:

/138k (1.06% complete)
1463 :science:

is domestic research and 0 is from AI trades.

Spoiler :

PR has explored everything except the northern island.
1st Great Scientist is a bit more than half done in Capital.

Stone is connected and fail :gold:

builds for Stonehenge and Pyramids have appeared in a few cities.
South City has 294/500 :hammers:

in Pyramids! (3 Math chops)

Domestic cities have made great progress with all 7 Big Fat Crosses now available.
Capital, South, and Northwest cities all have Granary + Library + Lighthouse by next turn.
Far NW City will have Granary next turn.

The East city is fighting with Sitting Bull for control of the southern clam! :cry:

Homes Slices teched Writing and Mathematics by Turn 75.
Their teching assets are +94 :science:

of unallocated overflow :science:

, 456

, and no great people.
Population is at 26 with 5 Workers.
On Turn 75, their tech path to victory is at 1634 :science:

/137k (1.19% complete)
1634 :science:

is domestic research and 0 is from AI trades.

Spoiler :

Home Slices are just now sending a Galley + Scout combo in Peter's direction and a Chariot is exploring south of Sitting Bull.

Open Borders was signed with Sitting Bull on T68.
This is 10 turns later than PR.

HS founded their 7th city (final) at the x2 clam site to the south on T69 and named it Clams City.
This is 12 turns after Phoenix Rising settled their 7th city.
The Great Wall was completed by the start of T72 in East City! [party]

This is 12 turns after Phoenix Rising saw Great Wall completed in their game.
Both teams now have 1 Great Wonder completed.

HS saw that Stonehenge was completed at the start of T72 in a distant land triggering a lot of fail :gold:

Domestic development is a bit low in sacrifice to huge amounts of fail :gold:

!
Capital has Library + Granary.
East and Northwest cities have Granary.
South city which is brand new has nothing.

====================================

Homeslice Turnset Report up to T80, up to T82, and up to T85
Screenshots on T85

Phoenix Rising on Turn 85

Spoiler :

Phoenix Rising teched Alphabet, Meditation, Priesthood, and Code of Laws by T85.
Then they used their 100GPP Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy complete! (1248 :science:

)
They also got Iron Working from Peter through trade.
Their teching assets are 14 :gold:

and no great people.
Population is at 37 with 5 workers.
On Turn 85, their tech path to victory is at 4216 :science:

/138k (3.05% complete)
3904 :science:

is domestic research and 312 :science:

is from AI trades.

Spoiler :

Due to wisely switching :espionage:

to Peter as soon as they met him, Sitting Bull was able to gain city vision on Northwest City on T85 with +424 :espionage:

as Peter's Workboat was sailing past.
Sitting Bull thus met Peter T85 using espionage, and the Phoenixians happily traded Math to Peter for Iron Working (+312 for free!)

Pyramids was completed by the start of T78 in South City, their 2nd Great Wonder! [party]

PR immediately switched to Representation civic T78.

Scientist specialists were worked in the 4 cities that had Libraries (Capital, South, West, and Northwest Cities)
This appears to have been amplified after the 2nd civic switch to Caste + Pacifism on T84.
So even with 0% slider, PR's empire is doing almost +100 :science:

per turn by Turn 85.

Confucianism was founded in East City and Taoism was founded in Northwest City.
The +5 :culture:

per turn in East City is especially useful as it will help secure the 3rd seafood from Sitting Bull's culture pressure.
No state religion was adopted yet.

PR saw that Oracle was completed at the start of T83 in a distant land.

Homes Slices teched Code of Laws by Turn 85.
They also completed Oracle to get Civil Service! (1248 :science:

)
Their teching assets are 322 :gold:

and no great people.
Population is at 28 with 6 Workers. (+1 Worker!)
On Turn 85, their tech path to victory is at 3441 :science:

/137k (2.51% complete)
3441 :science:

is domestic research and 0 is from AI trades.

Spoiler :

HS met Peter and signed Open Borders on T78!
That is 38 turns later than PR.
Chariot down south of Sitting Bull ran into a dead end, so a Workboat is going down there to explore the icy island in the far south.
HS completed Oracle in Island City at the start of T81 and chose free Civil Service! [party]

(2nd Great Wonder)
The +8 :culture:

will help get that 4th ring Marble much faster! :drool:

They immediately adopted the Bureaucracy civic T81.

Oracle was achieved on a :hammers:

poor island through gifting Stone+Deer to SB after whipping a 40/50 :hammers:

Dun complete with stone.
The massive 50 :hammers:

overflow went into Oracle

, and stone was regained by pillaging the only road to deer outside the empire borders.

Confucianism was founded in West City which was moderately useful for border pops + chops later.
No state religion was adopted yet.

====================================

Homeslice Turnset Report up to T91 and up to T95
Screenshots on T95

Phoenix Rising on Turn 95

Spoiler :

Phoenix Rising teched Currency, Compass, Metal Casting, and some of Machinery by T95.
They also got Monarchy from Peter through trade.
Their teching assets are 68 :gold:

and no great people.
Population is at 51 with 5 workers.
On Turn 95, their tech path to victory is at 6977 :science:

/138k (5.06% complete)
6197 :science:

is domestic research and 780 :science:

is from AI trades.

Spoiler :

PR saw Stonehenge completed in a faraway land T87 which granted them a good boost of fail :gold:

After a Confu spread to Sitting Bull on T90, SB adopted Confucianism.
PR immediately adopted Confucianism T90 also for +shared religion diplomacy

The diplo situation rapidly improved by T95 with +4 Fair Trade with both AI.
+8 with Sitting Bull and +6 with Peter.
The +1 "shared your technology" diplo bonus with Peter was from trading and selling-for- :gold:

Math, Meditation, Code of Laws, Currency, and Compass I think.
Sitting Bull was also boosted a bit with Priesthood, Writing, and Math.

Northern island was explored, but nothing good up there.
Both gems in Capital were cleared of jungle and mined.

Moai Statues was completed by the start of T94 in Island City , so that is where Apostolic Palace must go!
Very brave to let the game-critical AP be built on an island with no forests left. :cowboy:

Compass + Machinery points towards an Optics beeline and Caravels to search for new AI.

Homes Slices teched Currency and some of Paper by Turn 95.
Their teching assets are 572 :gold:

and no great people.
Population is at 35 with 6 Workers.
On Turn 95, their tech path to victory is at 4382 :science:

/137k (3.20% complete)
4382 :science:

is domestic research and 0 is from AI trades.

Spoiler :

HS finished exploring west of Peter with Galley + Scout.
South of Sitting Bull was a debacle with 1st the Chariot and then the Workboat being unable to proceed past the island surrounded by icebergs, so a 3rd Galley was created to ferry across the Chariot.
Optics isn't attractive until the south is proven to be a dead end like the north and west.

HS finally got Pleased with Sitting Bull, so no DOW from that direction in the future.
Hidden iron tiles were nervously scouted (and not found) due to "We have enough on our hands" not appearing until SB meets another AI.
HS completed Pyramids in West City at the start of T95! [party]

(3rd Great Wonder)
This is 17 turns later than PR's Pyramids.
Lots and lots of fail :gold:

was generated with partial builds in a few cities.
+500 :gold:

should arrive on T96.

HS saw The Great Lighthouse get completed in a faraway land on T91, which is 35 turns after PR built theirs.

Lots of buildings went up in the last 10 turns.
West, East, and Northwest cities now have Lighthouse + Granary + Library
Island, South, and Far NW cities got Granary + Lighthouse by next turn.

Confu spread to Sitting Bull, but HS has not adopted a religion yet.

HS could have forced Sitting Bull's Scout to meet Peter's Workboat by closing borders, but that would have reset the Open Borders diplo bonus to 0. :mad:

Closing borders would have meant a few turns of "not right now, maybe in a few years" and then 50 more turns to build Open Borders diplo bonus back up to +2.
Friendly Sitting Bull was judged to be more valuable in the future than quicker tech trades since neither AI had Alphabet yet. :hmm:

====================================

Link to Postgame Analysis 3

**Edit**
Thanks for helping me fix the HS beaker totals Gumbolt. :thumbsup:

I would put all of this stuff in 1 post, but the 30 image limit per post is my Enemy.

Gumbolt · Sep 18, 2020

Are you planning on adding medicine and masonry to the HS tech list? As your tech required would actually be higher than ours?

Great post comparison.

Kaitzilla · Sep 18, 2020

Gumbolt said:
Are you planning on adding medicine and masonry to the HS tech list? As your tech required would actually be higher than ours?

Those two techs were optional for us on the path to victory, so I won't include them unless I change my mind for some reason.
On the tech race between the two teams, the % complete will be the most important comparison number I think. :hmm:

Any huge

tech overflows will just have to dangle until they get placed in a tech.
I'll stuff them in "tech assets" with gold supply.

Mitchum · Sep 18, 2020

Right. Medicine wasn't technically mandatory for our victory so we ended up "wasting" Liberalism on it. Masonry is a rounding error in the whole scheme of things.

Fippy · Sep 18, 2020

I think your plan with TGW was that you can skip teching Commies for Kremlin, and let an AI do it?

WastinTime · Sep 18, 2020

Fippy said:
I think your plan with TGW was that you can skip teching Commies for Kremlin, and let an AI do it?

Yeah, we didn't want to build the gigantic Kremlin late (along with West Point), after waiting for an AI to do Communism.
We probably shoulda got free MilTradition, but I think we had nothing else to research while waiting for free Astro (or something like that.)

lymond · Sep 18, 2020

Masonry is certainly not optional for any team. It's a requisite tech. Any tech that is required for a subsequent requisite is itself a requisite.

Medicine was not requisite, so based on the context of how your list works it would technically not apply. Regardless, it was a 7000 beaker difference between the two games.

Gumbolt · Sep 18, 2020

Masonry is required for construction. Construction is required for engineering. Engineering is required for chemistry. I would add back masonry as a core tech.

Med might show where part of those 17000 beakers went. A 7k med vs a 10k SC lib. So the cost of going Sushi is just over 10k beakers.. Maybe the alteration should be to take SC off PR list as it is technically free. Just as med was for you. SC may be a required tech but it was free. Guess either way that will be shown once both teams have Lib. On that basis CS should not be on your list.

One of the interesting facts will be to determine where those 17k beakers was lost and if you recouped the 10k from Sushi after 54 turns.

Fippy · Sep 18, 2020

lymond said:
Medicine was not requisite, so based on the context of how your list works it would technically not apply. Regardless, it was a 7000 beaker difference between the two games.

10k beakers

However i still believe Sushi can work in this scenario.

Let's not talk so much about a 100 beakers tech like Masonry, Kai has enuf work and does it great!

edit, well we did Lib SC so the difference should count as 10k.
I compare Med against our Lib tech.

lymond · Sep 18, 2020

I show Med as 7300 base. Are you factoring in Lib as well?

Well, I'm sure Kait cares about accuracy

~~ok...I see..well, technically since we are talkin' "free" tech and Med is not requisite, would that not be ~17k delta?~~ (nonsense)

Nevermind, thinking on that further 10K difference makes sense.

Kaitzilla · Sep 18, 2020

lymond said:
Masonry is certainly not optional for any team. It's a requisite tech. Any tech that is required for a subsequent requisite is itself a requisite.

Medicine was not requisite, so based on the context of how your list works it would technically not apply. Regardless, it was a 7000 beaker difference between the two games.

Gumbolt said:
Masonry is required for construction. Construction is required for engineering. Engineering is required for chemistry. I would add back masonry as a core tech.

Med might show where part of those 17000 beakers went. A 7k med vs a 10k SC lib. So the cost of going Sushi is just over 10k beakers.. Maybe the alteration should be to take SC off PR list as it is technically free. Just as med was for you. SC may be a required tech but it was free. Guess either way that will be shown once both teams have Lib. On that basis CS should not be on your list.

One of the interesting facts will be to determine where those 17k beakers was lost and if you recouped the 10k from Sushi after 54 turns.

Oh ya!

I'll add Masonry to the required list of techs.
Thanks for correcting me.

Liberalism is required for Communism. Mmm

lymond · Sep 18, 2020

Yup, Lib is technically a requisite in this game due to Intelligence Agency....regardless of free techs

LowtherCastle · Sep 18, 2020

Which corp did PR choose?

MirrorGuard · Sep 18, 2020

LowtherCastle said:
Which corp did PR choose?

jewel.

MirrorGuard · Sep 18, 2020

Kaitzilla said:
This was a masterstroke for their team actually.

Yes indeed.

WastinTime said:
But I never would figured that out.
GLH should have meant your only reasonable early victory option was conquest. Both diplo wins shoulda been off the table.

Honestly speaking WT, didn't you come up with something like founding Christianity ourselves, gifting away theology to Peter SB and letting them do AP for us? :lol:

The difference is even larger if we take this into account: their summary in the lurker thread says they switched to universal suffrage and used cash to rush some buildings.

Kaitzilla · Sep 18, 2020

LowtherCastle said:
Which corp did PR choose?

Ya, like Mirrorguard said Civilized Jewelers.

Unlocked by Mass Media 1 turn before the win screen, and created with a Great Artist.

lymond · Sep 18, 2020

@Kaitzilla

Due to wisely switching to Peter as soon as they met him, Sitting Bull was able to gain city vision on Northwest City on T85 with +424 as Peter's Workboat was sailing past.

Very eenteresting, Herr Kait! If I recall, we were not fully aware of why Pete and SB met when then did, but we were very cognizant and desirous for them to do so, monitoring their wbs closely. We had even considered closing borders at the time, to catch one of SB's scouts or wbs - can't remember which now, to facilitate the meet. But we def knew we wanted them to meet asap to unlock IW trade. Interestingly though, we were not quite on the ball with EP switch on Pete and actually did so a few turns later than we should have - simple oversight really. (I recall at the time thinking that we had switched earlier) Another Phoenixian may illuminate us more accurately on the subject.

But the whole AI vision on us is something I'd never considered myself and yet another tidbit learned from the Clowns de Homies.

Fine_Distinction · Sep 18, 2020

lymond said:
@Kaitzilla

Very eenteresting, Herr Kait! If I recall, we were not fully aware of why Pete and SB met when then did, but we were very cognizant and desirous for them to do so, monitoring their wbs closely. We had even considered closing borders at the time, to catch one of SB's scouts or wbs - can't remember which now, to facilitate the meet. But we def knew we wanted them to meet asap to unlock IW trade. Interestingly though, we were not quite on the ball with EP switch on Pete and actually did so a few turns later than we should have - simple oversight really. (I recall at the time thinking that we had switched earlier) Another Phoenixian may illuminate us more accurately on the subject.

But the whole AI vision on us is something I'd never considered myself and yet another tidbit learned from the Clowns de Homies.

This is way above my paygrade - can somebody please explain this to mere mortals? "Unlocking IW" means that less friendly AI will trade it to more friendly AI, right? But what AI visibility on cities has to do with anything?

lymond · Sep 19, 2020

Fine_Distinction said:
This is way above my paygrade - can somebody please explain this to mere mortals? "Unlocking IW" means that less friendly AI will trade it to more friendly AI, right? But what AI visibility on cities has to do with anything?

It's basically the same logic as semi-isolation. AIs will not trade techs with you if you are the only one they know. There are some very few exceptions like Monarchy. At that stage, we were far from a Friendly Pete, so he would not be open to trading stuff like IW unless he met another leader - SB.

The visibility thing is SB accumulated enough EP on us to see our cities, and by virtue of seeing our cities he saw Pete's wb in the vicinity of one of those cities; therefore, Pete meets Bull. Although I've never thought of that in terms of AI leader meets AI leader before, I've encountered this myself plenty of times by meeting heretofore unmet leaders by virtue of getting city visibility. Could be some unit in the vicinity of a city or simply the borders touch a civ I can't reach otherwise or hadn't bothered scouting the area yet.

[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

Lord Croissant

Lord Croissant

Phoenix Rising

Lord Croissant

Deity

Mycro Junkie

Deity

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

Phoenix Rising

Mycro Junkie

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

Lord Croissant

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

Deity

Prince

Prince

Lord Croissant

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

King

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

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