[BTS] Shadow Game - Immortal - Louis - HoF like Start

[kostja]

Hi,

I want to try some kind of HoF like space race shadow game. I rolled some decent starts gold/marble or gold/stone starts using map finder.

Here are the settings

* Louis of France, Immortal
* No Barbs, Huts or Events
* Normal, Large, Cylindrical Big_and_Small
* Temperate Climate, Medium Sea Level
* 8 AI all unknown

And here's the start


Here are my thoughts for choosing a starting position.
As much as I'd love to start on a PH for the faster, I do not think that moving away from the current position will pay off. Moving 1S sacrifices 2 FP and a Gold. I would not expect to find better land by moving 1E and moving 1N2E looks silly. The fogged tile 2N of settler does not appear to be a hills tile. Probably grass land.
Moving the warrior 1E1S might make us consider moving the settler to the corn in T0 in order to defog 2N and 2E before deciding for a settling position on T1.



Looking at the demographics, I'd say there is at least one AI with 'The Wheel' (21k soldiers) and 3 archers one without 'The Wheel' or 'Mining'. Sadly, Mansa seems to be not in the game. Also, no Hammurabi, if I got that right.

For the opening move one has to consider that the French people start with 'The Wheel' and 'Agriculture'. Given that the start has 3 gold, one would think that mining should be researched early. For the food, a worker might improve the corn right away and then either continue farming or cottaging the FP after acquiring 'Pottery'.

In the beginning, I see the capitol working the cord, 3 gold and growing 2 cottages at size 6 with +1fpt. It would have decent production capabilities while maintaing a very high commerce. Getting a second early happines source would allow to work another FP cottage. With Bureaucracy this will be an incredible powerfull city.

However, growing the capitol later might become very difficult. Therefore, a near helper city might be great which could take over (some of) the gold mines. Unfortunately, such a city would not help reaching the marble earlier. Might be useful to settle a second early city.

The initial improvements would take 5 turns for the farm, 3x 5t for the mines, 2t+3t for roads (to help climb the hill to the capitol in the future) and 2x 5t for the cottages. In total at least 30 worker turns just to "boot" the capitol. Considering skipping the third gold mine in the beginning and settling an additional city for it sooner.

Ideally, it would be best to steal some workers from the immediate neighbors. Although, I managed to do so reliably only in test games when I knew where a very close AI was located. I am not sure, what the average distance on a large B&S map between two capitols might be. In my last games, I found it to be quite significant. Also, going worker first will result in 3 extra worker turns when population hits size 2 on turn 21. Would be a shame to throw away such a good start gambling on free workers and near AI. Any stolen workers will be a nice bonus of course.

I would be glad if you find this interesting and I'm looking forward from learning with you!

Kind regards

 

[kostja]

This was my first, so maybe some one might find it interesting what brought me here.

I used to play Civ IV many many years ago. The legendary game by Wastintime launching the space ship in the BC era brought me back to the forum. Since then, I'm lurking and reading all kind of posts about early space ship victories (WT, Anysense, Fishman). There was a start posted by Sannaty that got me hooked in the end and where I tried to follow the pace set by Wastintime (T38 Alphabet, T55 Civil Service, T70 Paper, T95 Oxford). I found my self not able to match it even after some dozens of retries. In the end, I got bored of the game and decided to start a fresh one.

 

[krikav]

Not that much I can help with really, game style is very far away from what I'm used to.
HoF like starts skew the game alot, and likewise does no barbs and workerstealing.

 

[6K Man]

I wouldn't dismiss the Plains Hill out of hand. 1S of your Settler gets you a 2F2H2C center tile. And with dry Corn and 3 Floodplains it's going to take you a while to work all 3 Golds from your current Settler location.

I'd suggest moving the Warrior 1SE to see what, if anything, you get by settling 1S.

 

[Choggy]

I'd settle 1W of the settler and let the 3rd gold tile go, in the short term the use of a 3rd Gold Tile will slow down the pop growth of your capital for building workers and settlers. In the long-term the extra FP Town is more valuable than a 0-3-6 gold mine.
I appreciate that you rolled this for a HOF start but I'd definitely want the corn to be riverside for the +1 food +1 commerce if I was looking for a 3 gold/1 corn start.

 

[kostja]

Good evening and thank you all very much for all your attention and your replies.

Not that much I can help with really, game style is very far away from what I'm used to.
HoF like starts skew the game alot, and likewise does no barbs and workerstealing.

I am sure, you have so much more experience than I do, and I would be glad to learn from every bit you're willing to share. Surely, you will have an opinion of where you'd settled.

I wouldn't dismiss the Plains Hill out of hand. 1S of your Settler gets you a 2F2H2C center tile. And with dry Corn and 3 Floodplains it's going to take you a while to work all 3 Golds from your current Settler location.

I'd suggest moving the Warrior 1SE to see what, if anything, you get by settling 1S.

I agree, let's move the warrior and see.

I'd settle 1W of the settler and let the 3rd gold tile go, in the short term the use of a 3rd Gold Tile will slow down the pop growth of your capital for building workers and settlers. In the long-term the extra FP Town is more valuable than a 0-3-6 gold mine.
I appreciate that you rolled this for a HOF start but I'd definitely want the corn to be riverside for the +1 food +1 commerce if I was looking for a 3 gold/1 corn start.

I'm not sure I'd settle 1W because I might also want to settle a third city around 3W for access to marble and growing the capitols cottages, if necessary. Also, a town a cottaged field needs to be worked for 70 turns, before it is a town. The gold might be worked alread on turn 30 by second city, if need be.
Furthermore, this is not a real attempt for HoF, so I'm not going to be that pedantic about the corn not being wet. I think the start is already extra ordinary strong.

Ok, moving the warrior 1SE...

Spoiler ... and we see ... :

1S looks so much more attractive now. 1W is also kind of nice, but is missing that early commerce and production boost. Settling 1S would could give us a second warrior for scouting if we choose to grow first before starting on a worker after reaching pop 2 on T8.

I'm going to upload the initial autosave after I've decided to settle, for anyone who wishes to play along.

Kind regards

 

[krikav]

I would move warrior SE and likely settle 1S on the riverside gold.

(And even more so, seeing what the warrior move revealed).

 

[kostja]

Spoiler Settled 1S :

t

It will take 3 turns before city can work the FP. The city could reach size 2 by T10 producing 21H then get a worker out on T20. Otherwise, the city can get a first worker out by T13. Improve the corn till T19 and grow to pop 2 by this time. I'd prefer going worker first and farm the corn.

Spoiler Meanwhile researching :

Animal Husbandary?

I'm considering going to Mining, Writing, Masonry, Code of Laws, Math and getting Civil Service as free tech from Oracle. Acquiring Alphabet in between to fill in techs if possible or Bronze Working if don't happen to meet anyone.


Demographics seem to indicate that

Spoiler from our rivals :

two are on the coast

Would send warrior scouting for neighbors. Revealing surroungs of the marble might be a good idea to give a hint where to place the next city.

Here's the game, I'd be very interested to compare the progress of anyone who cares to play along.

 

[Choggy]

Definitely 1W now . If I can get some time free this weekend I'll shadow you for the start.

 

[lymond]

Well, 1S worked out well indeed!

I'd give you a yes on AH. Pigs is best tile there

 

[kostja]

Definitely 1W now . If I can get some time free this weekend I'll shadow you for the start.

That would be very interesting. I kind of feel, that I should have traded the +1H city center tile for the second gold. I expect your tech rate to be significantly higher than mine around T35.

I went worker first teching AH. Next plan is to tech Mining, than Pottery and Writing. Meanwhile growing to pop 4 and building a warrior and settler till T33. Thinking about settling 3N of Paris for access to the second gold, sharing the corn and first gold and growing some cottages.

Demographics shows, that there are at least two creative AI but it's not the one with so many sea tiles.

Spoiler ... revealed ... :

7.375 = (9 + 3 + 47)/8, with 6 AI's occuping 47 tiles

9.750 = (21+3+54)/8, with 6 AI's sharing 54 tiles after a creative boarder pop on T3.

My warrior moving N ...

Spoiler ... revealed ... :

actually nothing intersting.

I hope this is not an isolated start. Will decide after Writing if I tech Bronze Working or Alphabet.

Worker stealing looks not very promising.

Playing to T17 till the pasture is done. Would be interested what you'd do next.

EDIT: AI Demo

 

[kostja]

T17 Buddhism has been founed in a distant land.
T18 Hinduism has been founed in a distant land.

Spoiler scouting :

Still no contact.

 

[kostja]

Starting first settler at size 4 in capitol feels too slow and building warriors while growing seems pointless, because of lack of victims and no barbs. Decided to start settler at size 2. That leaves 11 turns to decide where to settle next.

 

[kostja]

Seems, I chose the worst possible direction for exploration.

Spoiler Found :

Met Hannibal T20 and discovered Catherine's land T21. It's not that far away and she might have been a good early target.

Those two love each other.


Met Darius T29 at a very unexpected place.

Last screenshot shows the current plan to settle the early cities. Would love to hear your opinion and advice.

 

[krikav]

3N1W of capital looks nice for a second city to me! Shares corn, grabs floodplains and the wheat.
But I think 3N is better still. That spot would also share the two gold tiles, and being able to juggle those golds between capital and second city would help alot in the early game.
When one city builds settler/worker it holds the gold while the other city then holds the corn and can grow freely.


The path you have moving with the settler is a disaster. Well... with CRE it's not a complete disaster since it would get the corn soon, but it's a unscouted area. If you wanted to send a settler that way you should have prepared for such a move earlier.
Warrior has overextended with scouting and is not in position to secure second city.

Pottery+Writing seems questionable. Pottery doesn't do anything when you are not ready to build granaries and doesn't have the workerturns to start laying down cottages.
Writing could work with CRE, a half-price library early in this commerce heavy capital could be nice...

But you are already blazing ahead with commerce due to the gold, so I would have prefered emphasis on production earlier with BW.

 

[pigswill]

@krikav: No barbs means you don't have to secure city sites. Agree that BW is stronger than pottery in terms of first settlers and workers.

 

[Anysense]

3N1W might kill some seafood. Also sharing golds with 3N is important as explained by Krikav. Although, I'd rather grab the corn first, because it may be claimed by AI soon.

 

[krikav]

@krikav: No barbs

Forgot about no barbs...

 

[kostja]

Good evening, everyone. Thank you all for your replies.

@krikav: Indeed, playing with no barbs made me so bold moving that far with the warrior and skipping to build reinforcements. (For better or worse... ) As you said earlier, that options changes the game significantly at the beginning.

Now for the next citiy to settle. Seeing the corn between Cathy's land and mine, made me consider to give that location more priority. It still feels, like I need to desperately work the second gold ASAP. Because of that, I'm considering settling the eastern city first with the corn in the second ring. It would work the gold until the creative trait pops the borders five turns later. That would also give the worker time to build a road and pay for the deficit in the meantime.

It is interesting that no-one considers the western location instead of a second city in the north.

As for the research priorities. I completely felt the same, that it's too early to tech Pottery. There's no room in the worker's schedule to build cottages and the city is not yet ready to start on a granary. Therefore, I skipped it and went straight for writing. The reason I did not choose Bronze Working is two fold. In the first place, There's not enough population yet for slavery to make sense, the worker is still busy and I'd rather not whip away my strong tiles. Moreover, I'd hope to get Bronze Working in trade, since I rember most of the AI getting the tech usually early. In fact, Hannibal already has it and switched to slavery T25.

Still undecided on the next city spot and the one after.

 

[Anysense]

I think if you settle with corn in second ring, that city should grow on oasis until corn is farmed.

Western location is plain helper, which claims nothing. Its too early for this kind of city.