[BTS] Shadow Game on Emperor with Ragnar (This time I'll stick to the end!)

[CGQ]

After the last two shadow games I played, I kinda dropped off the face of the Earth. I want to learn this game so I can apply the decision making skills from this game into real life! Now my problem in this game is as follows:

I play emperor usually and most of time my strategy is to bulb education to get Cuirs and take over my continent before 1300 AD. Usually I get cuirs way later than I hope. I always wonder how it's possible to get them before 800 AD as I some some people here do. Even then most of my games either end with me getting DOW'ed for no reason by a neighbor while I'm trying to get to cuirs as quick as possible (usually I just have warriors).
The games where I do succeed however turn into a drag and I either win a late 1800-1900s space race or I conquer and vassal the other continent for domination but usually by 1700 AD.

Spoiler My past game :

Before I start this shadow game, I was playing with Montezuma and made it to 1804 AD. I attached the save so you guys can look at it and tell me what you'd do in that position. How can I win that game? I don't know how the hell Mansa manages to get those techs so damn fast haha

The one thing about this game is that it's the quickest I got cuirs ready in any game. Usually it's 1300 or 1400 AD that I get an army ready. I attached an 1110 AD save where I was right about to strike India just in case anyone wants to critique that one too. I also attached the 50 BC save too. I chopped an oracle in 1280 BC and popped Code of Laws with it in this game though I had trouble utilizing it fully by running scientists.

I'll attach that save too for the curious. Anyone else who wants to play that map I attached the 4000 BC save too if anyone wants to take a crack at it though huts and events were on unfortunately and I don't know how to turn them off. (I wish I did in that game haha).

Either way there has to be a lot of things I'm not doing right or utilizing based on those saves. I seriously appreciate anyone who takes the time to see those save games and list/critique what I was doing wrong throughout those saves (1280 BC, 50 BC, 1110 AD and 1804 AD) and what I could've done better. I either made a lot of little mistakes that snowballed or I made big ones.

Anyhow, here's our third shadow game:

Settings:
- Emperor Difficulty
- Random leader
- Temperate Climate
- Standard Size
- Normal Speed
- Low Sea Level
- Continents with 7 AI instead of the usual 6 because...well...why not?
- No huts or troll-vents
They're the same as the game above minus tiki huts and events

Spoiler 4000 B.C. :

Ah the irony...

Normally I get stuck with him. Now I am him! Is he any good to play as?

Seems like a pretty decent start.

Seems like a decent start. Irrigated rice is always good, and two fish foods which is good since I start with fishing. Too bad there's no irrigated pigs though.

I moved my scout 2 SW to the forest hills and found grass sheep.

I figure that's a good 2nd city site. Should I SIP or settle on the incense? Also the biggest problem I have is when I have a coastal start with fishing, do I build WB first or worker? Normally I always build a worker if there's better food on land then use my worker to chop the fishing boats. I figure worker is good here because of wet corn but you make the call.

I'm tired of doing the same strategy and getting the same crappy results. I will stick to the game this time no matter what!

Note: "Yo-Yo The Noob 4000 BC" is the current game. The past game is "Pro-boy The Noob."

 

[LincolnOfRome]

The wet corn is plenty of food to start. SIP is fine. You could also settle on the plains hill to the southwest. The extra hammer of a plains hill is always welcome. You play quite a bit differently than me, but you seem to be doing well. Your score is always in the lead.

In what ways do you want to get better?

 

[lymond]

Well, we always seem to have you going in the right direction early on there CG but then you disappear.

Coastal starts are always a pain. Usually look to move inland if I can but that does appear to work here and we know its tundra up N anyway.

Odd to say but I'm inclined to settle 1SW for the PH. These starts sometime you want to test which is best path to take, but with Fish already and a PH settle plus a forest Ph to work, I'd build a WB first then the worker while teching AH, which you can due directly (or maybe even AG>AH if that times right) Corn can be settled next that can share a clam and get its own later. (actually AG may be too much as you really want BW asap)

Haven't looked at your Monty game, but I suspect you still run into issues with fine tuning the early gameplay while mastering the art of producing great people and bulb paths "mid-game", which I use in a relative sense. Plus you may hit diversionary blak holes that we've really never seen in your games here as they've not progressed very far.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

To play differently, you could try building a lot more cottages. Ragnar is a good leader for this even if it isn't a river start.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Even though I myself play on emperor level, I'm not afraid to say that it's still a (probably the last) paint-by-numbers difficulty level for the most part. Settle all good food spots. Pick your friends wisely. Don't build most buildings. Use slavery efficiently. Don't waste too many worker turns, although you don't have to go crazy with this on this level. It's not necessary to squeeze every last move out of your workers yet. You can win reliably this way.

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler Played to Turn 18-21 :

Settled 1 SW on the plains hill;

I played the first 18-21 turns three times to experiment:

On the first attempt I worked only the plains mine to get the workboat out sooner while teching AG-AH. After the WB I made a worker in 12 turns while teching AH but at turn 18 the worker got out one turn too early leaving him with nothing to do with AH one turn away. One wasted worker turn and AGRI which I didn't need until a bit later anyways.

One the second attempt I worked the grass sheep while building the WB. This time it took a bit longer but allowed the city to grow to size 2, working the clam and PH to get out a worker in only 8 turns. This time AH was finished 3 turns before the worker and the city is size 2.

On the third attempt I did the same as the first except I teched AH first then mining. The worker was out at Turn 18 and could immediately improve the sheep.
I attached all three saves. Which one do you think I'm in the best position? I'll play the best one of the three.

Other notes:

We meet our first AI:


2nd AI:


AH revealed horses in my capital!


Two fish on the west coast:


Also lots of FP's on other side of sea:

With financial I think I can use them to my advantage! Usually on emperor my strategy is to cottage my capital if it's by a river. I also noted the marble, dry corn and dry pigs.

I'm concerned though what to do with worker after he finishes sheep and horses?

 

[Fippy]

Wheel after AH seems obvious..you can connect barb defense, keep him busy and speed up your settler by 1t.

 

[CGQ]

Wheel after AH seems obvious..you can connect barb defense, keep him busy and speed up your settler by 1t.

Like this?

Spoiler To Turn 29 :

I went AH-Wheel-Mining then Agri. Should I have gone AH-Wheel-AGRI-Mining-BW?


I made a warrior for spawn-busting and let the capital grows to size 3, then I switched to 8-9 turn settler working the three improved tiles.

Warrior reveals two more fish sources north of capital:


What do I do with worker? Do I road to the 2nd city site?

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler Played to Turn 36 :

Settled 2nd city in Turn 36. Capital using overflow to complete 2nd worker:

Will send that warrior out to spawn-bust. After BW I will use the 2nd worker to chop another settler.

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler Played to Turn 52 :

Forgot to post this on my last update, I met Joao II on turn 32:

Isn't he the one dude that grows really fast and spams cities? Wonder what makes him so powerful (and Mansa and Maya)
Workers improve corn:


Chopped 2nd settler and teching pottery:


T49 3rd city built, now teching Writing:

Will chop library later to grab fish. Meanwhile Uppsala finishes WB to grab 2nd clam. Capital uses overflow for our 3rd settler.

4th city will grab dry ride and floodplains while sharing the 2nd clam:

 

[Gumbolt]

Far too many roads here. Focus on chopping and setting up 3 good cities. Your fog busters needed to be down south not next to the coast.

Your third city should of probably been using the corn to grow. You don't have myst so you would need to whip/chop a library for a border pop. Your planning another city with the same problem. Pick cities with food resources in inner ring first.

1N of the wheat would of been much better? Get's sheep/wheat and a few flood plains. Plus the lake for commerce too. The fish city could of been settled later. It doesn't help fog busting either.

There is some very nice land down south. Pigs/Corn. Gemsx2. Double fish/horse city looks good long term.

I really don't like low sea level setting. You will be swarmed with barbs soon.

 

[CGQ]

Far too many roads here. Focus on chopping and setting up 3 good cities. Your fog busters needed to be down south not next to the coast.

Your third city should of probably been using the corn to grow. You don't have myst so you would need to whip/chop a library for a border pop. Your planning another city with the same problem. Pick cities with food resources in inner ring first.

1N of the wheat would of been much better? Get's sheep/wheat and a few flood plains. Plus the lake for commerce too. The fish city could of been settled later. It doesn't help fog busting either.

There is some very nice land down south. Pigs/Corn. Gemsx2. Double fish/horse city looks good long term.

I really don't like low sea level setting. You will be swarmed with barbs soon.

Replayed the last few turns

Spoiler Replayed to turn 51 :

Went back to turn 38.

BW is about to be finished. Corn was just finished and will be worked by 2nd city. Worker built road to sheep while waiting before chopping. Capital slow-builds settler before being chopped:


Got pottery, now teching Writing.
Settler is finished and moves to Gumbolt suggested site, 1N of wheat. Worker comes along to get sheep right away.
Uppsala starts working WB to be chopped, with perfect timing it should get the 2nd clams right at the capital's 3rd border pop:


Haithabu is settled on Turn 50. Chops in Uppsala will go towards another worker. Workboat was built and is now over clams. Perfect timing, since next turn the capital's border pop will pop next turn:


State of empire at Turn 51. Note Cathy's borders to the East:


Planning on settling the dry pigs and corn site next. I could chop a library there, grab dry corn and run scientists there for GP production.

 

[Gumbolt]

There is a lot of empty land out there. You can see Russian borders too. A few chariots to help with barbs might be good.

 

[CGQ]

There is a lot of empty land out there. You can see Russian borders too. A few chariots to help with barbs might be good.

Spoiler :

When do I build them and which cities should? What would be a good next move? Could I HA rush Cathy? Should I settle the dry pigs next or the fish? I was thinking settling 3S 1W of the 3rd city to grab more FP's.

 

[Gumbolt]

I would probably chop 2-3 chariots. You also want a 1-2 settlers too. No need to start wars here when you have lots of good land. Just expand and start cottaging those flood plains.

Have you switched to slavery yet?

 

[CGQ]

I would probably chop 2-3 chariots. You also want a 1-2 settlers too. No need to start wars here when you have lots of good land. Just expand and start cottaging those flood plains.

Have you switched to slavery yet?

Spoiler Played to Turn 63 :

I haven't yet but I did in this turn-set.

Chopped 3 chariots, lost 1 to an archer despite being fortified on a hill:

I sent the rest south to spawn bust. My first two cities will soon have a warrior for MP.

I get writing and open borders with all AI. I found Marble but Cathy's creative borders quickly seal it in. I binary research ALPHA for trading and build a settler in the capital. I switch to slavery and two-pop whip a library in Uppsala with chop+overflow:

Now where to settle the next city?


I'm thinking either dry pigs or 3S 1W of Haithabu to share the dry corn and grab the rest of the floodplains and maybe even marble eventually.

 

[lymond]

Chariots do not fortify and do not receive defensive bonuses
I think settling right where that chariot is there next to the pigs is fine...gets trade route too

 

[CGQ]

Chariots do not fortify and do not receive defensive bonuses
I think settling right where that chariot is there next to the pigs is fine...gets trade route too

Spoiler Played to Turn 82 :

Settled Birka around 1300 BC (forgot which date); Worker immediately worked on pigs. Meanwhile, the city worked the 3 commerce tile until the pigs are improved since growth isn't a priority yet...Or is it?




1040 BC I get ALPHA. Worker in Birka builds road to pigs for +1 health to every city. I slow built a granary in the capital since it already had unhappiness from previous whip.


Next turn Cathy comes to me with this offer, which I accept. Another settler will settle 3S 1W of Birka, to get the dry corn and gems.

EP points say she's teching for IW, which I'll trade ALPHA with her for it, which will allow me to get the gems too.

Bjogvin is settled in 1000 BC:


Barbs were a bit of a pain but did give my warrior and chariot free XP!



Ramesses came to me with this trade which I accepted:


The thing I hate about cities like Hait, how the hell do I get hammers to build anything in those cities? I could really use a library there but it's not possible. Should I just grow it to size 6 then whip it?
Also Uppsala has been running scientists:




Iron Working reveals two sources of iron.
About to get first Great Scientist:


I whip that grassland tile away to finish library, which will help me get that second source of gems and later on sugar. To the west is the 2nd source of iron:


Worker makes his way down to help out the others and eventually get the 2nd gems:


Now what to do with scientist? Should I also keep running scientists in Uppsala? When do I build research? Normally I always build an academy in capital, especially if capital is by a river with cottages. Would bulbing mathematics be practical or settling it? What about saving him for a better bulb? Gold age?

I plan to whip the library in Birka and run two scientists there since there's no other good tile to work aside from the ocean tiles. Meanwhile capital is working on a settler. Would N of wet corn be good? I feel it would be a good production city to make units and eventually get fish.

 

[Fippy]

Yup cities like Haitabu whip their granary and library, and sit out the penalty on cottages and scientists while you have no happies.
Can be annoying early but a great spot longterm.

While some game hints suggest "avoid unhappy citizens at all cost", that's not what experienced players do. They are basically just -2 food each which is unimportant if you have enuf.

I would look at getting a city in between Birka and Hait before Cathy does, can also take wheat while Hait has no use for it.

If your cap isn't great for commerce, bulbing Philo is often best.

 

[lymond]

Do not trade for small useless techs like Archery. This goes against trade caps which can make trading for far more important techs later more difficulty. (especially important as you move up levels)
Writing for Sailing on the other hand is a great trade.

I assume the road on the corn next to Bjorvin was already in place before settling, otherwise improve the food first.