Siam vs Greece: Battle of the Diplomatic Civilizations.

[sendos]

It's a tough choice but I voted for Siam. You get more benefits out of CS', if you have a rapidly spreading religion with papal primacy + double CS religious pressure enhancer + patronage, you effectively replicate Greece's UA and can maintain friends with every single CS. Eventually, more food, faith, culture beats less gold spent on maintaining allies.

Then again, with Greece, how low can you reduce CS influence? You got the UA (-50% decay), patronage opener (-25% decay) and religion (-25% decay). I know that patronage opener and religion in CS stack (so -1 goes to 0.75 and then to 0.5). I guess the lowest influence decay is 0.25 for Greece. The main counter for Greece is spies though.

Piety for charitable missions is also ideal for both of these civs but mostly Siam.

 

[bbbt]

Amarr Emperor posted a great explanation in the UA elimination thread where he argued pretty convincingly that Greece's was usually superior:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12866173&postcount=349

tl;dr: you get all of the benefits boosted from Greece's UA while Siam's is limited to some specific benefits (i.e. you'll get gifted strategic/luxury resources longer with Greece - Siam's UA will give you no benefit from this), and even in regards to what Siam boosts (i.e food), you'd get more bang for your buck with Greece.

Siam's UA is also fantastic and can be more useful in some respects (getting a religion faster, for example), but I'd agree that Greece's UA is superior.

 

[rowanlad]

Its the UB that wins Siam over for me. Those Greek UUs are just so dam early and while I am not a big fan of the elephant either, Siam's UB more than makes up for Greece's slight advantage in the UA.

 

[PhilBowles]

Amarr Emperor posted a great explanation in the UA elimination thread where he argued pretty convincingly that Greece's was usually superior:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12866173&postcount=349

tl;dr: you get all of the benefits boosted from Greece's UA while Siam's is limited to some specific benefits (i.e. you'll get gifted strategic/luxury resources longer with Greece - Siam's UA will give you no benefit from this), and even in regards to what Siam boosts (i.e food), you'd get more bang for your buck with Greece.

Siam's UA is also fantastic and can be more useful in some respects (getting a religion faster, for example), but I'd agree that Greece's UA is superior.

That's not an especially convincing case - the benefits listed are those for CS allies, and as mentioned elsewhere on this thread, that requires becoming an ally first (note: this is not the case for Siam's UA, which kicks in as soon as you're at friendly status - something the link you posted appears to neglect in its calculation, incidentally).

Secondly, all the (rather speculative) mathematical benefits thrown around for Greece are the absolute maximum benefit Greece can provide in terms of saved income - that is, if you're getting no influence from any sources other than gold (and also not counting the boost to influence for gold payments during quests). It's not a typical benefit you will expect to get from the Greek UA. I'll happily allow that, if you assume an absolutely ideal situation and that the UA substitutes for what would otherwise be 100% gold-bought influence, Greece will slightly edge Siam out in terms of CS bonuses, however you're then comparing a very unlikely game scenario with typical output from Siam's UA. In any realistic game context, Siam's UA is superior.

 

[Doctor Doom]

I really want to try out the "free wat trick" but I feel it would really stunt my growth by delaying landed elite. + I not sure what other tree to take before legalism... maybe piety and start spreading my religion to get endless friendship with every CS.

 

[Resipsa]

Played a deity game on Pangaea last night with Siam and I totally take back the slight edge to Siam in the UA department. Siam's UA destroys Greece not only does Siam win early game but in the late game as well once all your spies are set to flip all the maritime CS.

 

[rawrtrav]

Then again, with Greece, how low can you reduce CS influence? You got the UA (-50% decay), patronage opener (-25% decay) and religion (-25% decay). I know that patronage opener and religion in CS stack (so -1 goes to 0.75 and then to 0.5). I guess the lowest influence decay is 0.25 for Greece. The main counter for Greece is spies though.

Nope, those 3 things actually stack to give -100% decay. In other words, 0 change per turn. I tried it out in a recent game of mine, and it's why I think Greece is better than Siam.

 

[Quineloe]

Amarr Emperor posted a great explanation in the UA elimination thread where he argued pretty convincingly that Greece's was usually superior:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12866173&postcount=349

tl;dr: you get all of the benefits boosted from Greece's UA while Siam's is limited to some specific benefits (i.e. you'll get gifted strategic/luxury resources longer with Greece - Siam's UA will give you no benefit from this), and even in regards to what Siam boosts (i.e food), you'd get more bang for your buck with Greece.

Siam's UA is also fantastic and can be more useful in some respects (getting a religion faster, for example), but I'd agree that Greece's UA is superior.

He is however completely ignoring the snowballing of larger benefits right from the start. + 1.5 food per maritime ally now can be better than +3 food in 50 turns.

And as Phil pointed out, gold gifts are by far not the only thing you can do to increase influence. Early game you can farm barbarians on their border with 2 archers, for example. Then wipe out the camp later. Ally status with +100 influence. By the time that decays down to 59, you should get new quests.

 

[CHEESE!]

It's so beautiful.

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

Regarding the -100% influence drop, that'd only work against citystates that aren't hostile, IIRC.

The score is so even. Maybe they are quite equal? After all, neither of them have a beard.

Does that mean Gustavus wins by default?

 

[GhostSalsa]

Played a deity game on Pangaea last night with Siam and I totally take back the slight edge to Siam in the UA department. Siam's UA destroys Greece not only does Siam win early game but in the late game as well once all your spies are set to flip all the maritime CS.

And let me guess, you went tall, ran tradition, early science focus, lots of gold and culture bla bla bla the whole time.

Siam's unique is given too much credit because the One True Path (tall/science) gives you across-the-board dominance in economy and makes winning CS's trivial.

If you are, god forbid, playing weaker strategies, like low-gold wide openings or honor openings, then Greece's is clearly better. That's why I repeat-play Greece a lot more than Siam: there's more than one way to play Greece and still benefit from the CS bonus.

I haven't voted in the poll however because I think it's really weird not to throw in Sweden, not my favorite but is some people's.

 

[reddishrecue]

The most culture, faith, or science quests that some CSs have does give Siam an advantage since Siam can generate more of these yields from the CSs. This can be a good reason why someone would vote for Siam ua over Greek ua. Sweden also can benefit from this when CSs mare quests for go also.

 

[Viregel]

To be honest, I don't particularly like either of them. I have to say that Sweden is superior to both.

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

Is Sweden really that good just because of the GP gifts? I mean, I did use it a few times for my benefit, but I'm still incredibly noobish at this game. I just pick Sweden to dance magic dance with my Medic II Caroleans!

 

[Dr. D]

Greece may get bonuses with less of an investment, but if you're willing to make investments in a CS or fulfill their quests, Siam easily trumps Greece.

 

[cpm4001]

Is Sweden really that good just because of the GP gifts? I mean, I did use it a few times for my benefit, but I'm still incredibly noobish at this game. I just pick Sweden to dance magic dance with my Medic II Caroleans!

Yes, most definitely. The GP gifts, as long as you carefully think about what GP, and when and to what CS you gift them, will win you nearly any game (and not just via Diplo Victory either.)
The Medic II Caroleans are pretty fun too, though...

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

Yes, most definitely. The GP gifts, as long as you carefully think about what GP, and when and to what CS you gift them, will win you nearly any game (and not just via Diplo Victory either.)
The Medic II Caroleans are pretty fun too, though...

I usually keep the scientists and Engineers for myself; they're much too valuable to give up.

But I guess Sweden got a buff with BNW's GWAM system.

 

[Resipsa]

And let me guess, you went tall, ran tradition, early science focus, lots of gold and culture bla bla bla the whole time.

Siam's unique is given too much credit because the One True Path (tall/science) gives you across-the-board dominance in economy and makes winning CS's trivial.

If you are, god forbid, playing weaker strategies, like low-gold wide openings or honor openings, then Greece's is clearly better. That's why I repeat-play Greece a lot more than Siam: there's more than one way to play Greece and still benefit from the CS bonus.

Well I to start don't consider anything on Deity trivial much less allying City States that other Civs are trying to win over. Second you haven't even listed proof of how Greece is superior with an honor opening; what does that even mean? That you'll open honor and then go through tradition? How is that any different than just going Straight through Tradition. What does low gold wide openings mean? I have cranked out 3 satellites as soon as my Cap hit 3 population is that a wide-opening? If so what makes Greece clearly better. Don't reply with vague concepts and expect everyone to believe Greece is clearly better.

Siam's UA is superior because it synergies well with going tall and getting that 50% bonus from maritime CS, especially in the late game.

 

[GhostSalsa]

Siam's UA is superior because it synergies well with going tall and getting that 50% bonus from maritime CS, especially in the late game.

No, i did not mean going tradition after honor. I mean not going tradition. We're fundamentally talking about two different games, never mind.

 

[Resipsa]

No, i did not mean going tradition after honor. I mean not going tradition. We're fundamentally talking about two different games, never mind.

Of course, playing Deity is a completely different game from playing Settler.