Slash and Burn Rainforests

[npburg]

Out of context this probably sounds horrible but good is there in keeping rainforests around? Why not just cut them down and building farms?

The production and food bonus from chopping rainforest is a good way to rush a city and the farm adjacency bonus outstrips the value of keeping the rainforest. The minor science bonus to a campus district is inconsequential. Rainforest do not even provide an appeal boost so if you are going for high appeal it is better to chop them down and replant a forest.

In Civ V, rainforest were good for science and gold with trading posts once you put points into the Rationalism civic tree but in Civ VI there is no good reason to keep them.

Occasionally I do get some AIs to whine about the destruction to the environment and to be "carbon friendly", I replant forests in the tundra but it doesn't really matter either way. Would be cool to see the return of global warming from Civ I so there is a shared threat to the world caused by industrialization and deforestation. However, right now there does not appear to be any benefit or deterrent that would keep me from cutting down all the rainforests.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Its basically

Campus bonus
Brazil bonus
Kongo's neighborhood(requies woods or rainforest)
Chitzen Itza bonus

But I agree those are minimal most of the time.

 

[JellyRev]

They need an industrial age improvement, like a trading post from civ 5 +2 gold or +1 unless next to a resource then +2 gold.

Put it in the science tree in economics or the civics tree in colonialism.

 

[fotonut]

I got a great person (don't remember who) who provided 400 science for rainforest tile & each neighboring. Since I had four of them that were intact (only one within the city boundaries), that gave a nice 1600 science bonus.

(Ah, just looked it up: Janaki Ammal)

 

[Big J Money]

I agree they've been useless to be besides harvesting them for food.

In my games so far though they've been very sparse and far between and that's part of the issue. I can't seem to put a campus down that gets more than 2 rainforests near it. So I always end up chopping and replacing.

 

[Haggbart]

They're pretty good early on, saves you some valuable hammers in the beginning, but when I get the farm adjacency bonus (or need mines for industrial zone adjacency), I chop them.

 

[NukeAJS]

I thought of this as I first broke into the modern era -- the idea of a national park, as is in the game, is a little narrow and probably understates the connection between tourism and conservation.

While national parks certainly have the quality of tourism, they ONLY have that quality because they are preserved. Preservation is the key factor here, not tourism. Tourism is a by-product (a welcomed one).

Most tourists probably wouldn't be so interested in visiting the deep Amazon due to heat and rain and, well, it's just too rugged. But that doesn't mean that rainforests shouldn't be preserved or that they aren't currently. Many areas of the world are preserved for reasons completely unrelated and disinterested in tourism and for good reasons.

So, I think there oughta be two kinds of preserved lands -- national parks (which work as they do now) and conservation areas. Conservation areas could be jungles and remote tiles (only one city within 2-3 tiles), but never snow tiles. Newly founded cities that make tiles "not remote" would eliminate the conversation status (with diplomatic penalties to boot). Conservation area tiles would give some kind of bonus to science, culture, and faith (depending on appeal, but maybe something else like next closest city that isn't the owning city) but would also remove all food and production. They wouldn't give amenities or tourism.

The idea being that you could plop a city in a remote area, grow it to a modest size eight or so, and then use 3-4 farms to work the 4+ tiles in the conservation area. Since you've probably already bulldozed rainforests in your earlier cities and/or your cities are fairly clustered together, this would give a good, interesting, historical reason to plop a city in an otherwise non-interesting place like "Siberia" (tundra), "Sahara" (desert), a late game "Amazon" (jungle), "Serengeti" (plains) or an "Outback" (desert/plains). Obviously, some of those places are more interesting from a scientific standpoint than others, but the rules shouldn't be too strict that they box a player out of something neat. Essentially, it would allow you to create your own natural wonder but for different reasons and using slightly different rules.

 

[bladex]

a mountain surrounded by rain-forests will yield a +5 campus bonus so they are not all pointless. try the fractal map that appears a lot in that.

 

[Zenstrive]

I see rainforest, I chop them.
They are magic item that can boost your little hamlet right into bustling city.

 

[Sc4Freak]

a mountain surrounded by rain-forests will yield a +5 campus bonus so they are not all pointless. try the fractal map that appears a lot in that.

I suspect that even then, you'd be better off chopping the rainforests. 4-5 rainforests is enough for a couple of free citizens from the food provided after they're chopped. And the production is enough for a free district in the early game. You could make up the lost science by putting you free citizens to work in the campus itself, with the advantage that you can reassign them at any time.

 

[kaspergm]

I thought of this as I first broke into the modern era -- the idea of a national park, as is in the game, is a little narrow and probably understates the connection between tourism and conservation.

While national parks certainly have the quality of tourism, they ONLY have that quality because they are preserved. Preservation is the key factor here, not tourism. Tourism is a by-product (a welcomed one).

I was really excited about national parks being added, but as it is now, I don't think it's well designed. The opportunity cost of making them is very high (the naturalist unit is ridiculously expensive), and the fact that you need four tiles in exactly a diamond shape makes it extremely hard to fit in late game. A much better solution would be to decide your own shape but have the bonus scale with size and adjacent nature park tiles, like the farm adjacency bonus.

 

[Roxlimn]

The rainforests being good for chopping reflects the historical reality that many, many, many people chopped and slahed rainforests for commercial gain. They still do. Arguably, Civilization making rainforests as beneficial as they already are in the game is something of a political statement already. They can't make a global warming mechanic right now without calling it a bunch of political critique for it.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I was really excited about national parks being added, but as it is now, I don't think it's well designed. The opportunity cost of making them is very high (the naturalist unit is ridiculously expensive), and the fact that you need four tiles in exactly a diamond shape makes it extremely hard to fit in late game. A much better solution would be to decide your own shape but have the bonus scale with size and adjacent nature park tiles, like the farm adjacency bonus.

What I think they should do...
Naturalist designates 1 "National Park Center" tile (whichever city owns that tile owns the national park)

Any unimproved charming+land tile, in your borders, adjacent to the NPC automatically becomes part of the national park

All NP give the Tourism benefits
If the park is 4+ tiles it gives the amenity benefits

 

[Victoria]

but never snow tiles.

Arctic and Antarctic conservation areas are also important.

Having a north to south conservation diamond is a little too obedient for me currently. Damn those parliamentary rules!

 

[fatgordy]

The rainforests being good for chopping reflects the historical reality that many, many, many people chopped and slahed rainforests for commercial gain. They still do.

This. Chopping down rainforests and replacing them with farmland is exactly what happens in the real world even to this day. I kind of like this mechanic. It gives a nice boost to your city when you do it and at the same time imitates real life.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

The local and global environmental consequences of chopping rain forests (global warming & tile degradation civ4 style) should be the balancing factor.
It'd be an excellent engine for diplomatic tension and conflict.

Though the game's lack of modeling pollution, and broken diplomacy would need addressing first.

 

[fatgordy]

It'd be an excellent engine for diplomatic tension and conflict.
Though the game's... broken diplomacy would need addressing first.

Exactly. We don't need any more reasons for the AI to get mad at the player and each other! lol.

 

[Cymsdale]

I had a start that had tons of rainforests everywhere. Won a religious victory by picking Sacred Path and getting a ridiculous amount of faith to spam conversion units. So rainforests can have their use.

Thay can be used for campus, but the value of campuses is questionable. The game seems to punish you for getting science too quickly.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Until they add a reason to keep them (i.e. environmental effects/global warming avoidance), the only question is "when you should chop them" and not "if you should chop them." Ideally, I can wait until the medieval era and Feudalism (per previous poster regarding farm adjacency), but if I need to chop them in the classical that's fine too. The reward is too good to pass up.

 

[UWHabs]

This. Chopping down rainforests and replacing them with farmland is exactly what happens in the real world even to this day. I kind of like this mechanic. It gives a nice boost to your city when you do it and at the same time imitates real life.

Yeah, that's what happens. But in civ terms, if basically anyone but Pedro settled in the Amazon, they'd have the entire rainforest chopped already and replaced with farms/mines.

Agreed on the NP idea mentioned above. To me, the "naturalist" should be like a builder who starts with 4 charges. He can lay it down one tile at a time, and the larger connected region of NP tiles, the larger the bonus you get. It would also potentially make cool, snaky parks all along the coastline, or going around other obstacles.