So, what do you expect from Civ7 ?

I may purchase Civ7 only if...

  • It's revolutionnary

    Votes: 5 14.7%
  • It's evolutionnary

    Votes: 8 23.5%
  • I will purchase Civ7 no matter what ok ?

    Votes: 21 61.8%

  • Total voters
    34
or overcomplicating any given system of the game for the sake of realism.
My nowadays moto is that realism, not only is of good inspiration for doing stuff in Civ franchise, but on top of that it would for sure help immersion.
but the average fan just doesn’t have a background in game design or enough experience to give actionable and realistic feedback.
I know, but there are a couple ideas that worth their penny here. :D
Knowing a bunch of facts about history doesn’t make your videogame ideas good, unfortunately.
So you are saying that any idea is bad ? Like the feedback must just be "i don't like that because this, please improve this ?" Seems like rather a killjoy. In that extent, even developers ideas are bad. (we may touch something)
 
My nowadays moto is that realism, not only is of good inspiration for doing stuff in Civ franchise, but on top of that it would for sure help immersion.
Totally disagree. Civ is a videogame before anything else, and gameplay should always come before realism.

So you are saying that any idea is bad ? Like the feedback must just be "i don't like that because this, please improve this ?" Seems like rather a killjoy. In that extent, even developers ideas are bad. (we may touch something)
Not what I said at all my guy. Just saying that the most frequent form of suggestion for Civ is a recitation of history facts, and I don’t think those are generally useful ideas. It’s not like the devs can’t read Wikipedia too.
 
Totally disagree. Civ is a videogame before anything else, and gameplay should always come before realism.
So, we agree to disagree. I'm not saying gameplay is not important, but that realism tendency is a pretty good starting point in order to contruct a Civ game brick by brick. The gameplay can come within this construction, as to how simplificate or just giving clear notions of what is what. Without History, there would no be Civs.
Uh, I'm not "your guy", thx.
Just saying that the most frequent form of suggestion for Civ is a recitation of history facts, and I don’t think those are generally useful ideas. It’s not like the devs can’t read Wikipedia too.
Weird how I don't feel the same. Most ideas come from vague notions of what realism is and in any case of how it could improve the game. Most of them are not that solid, but solidness is not a strenght of Civ series anyway. (it often lines up with popular notions, litterally, put as is, while it could have been done otherwise easily.)
 
So, we agree to disagree. I'm not saying gameplay is not important, but that realism tendency is a pretty good starting point in order to contruct a Civ game brick by brick. The gameplay can come within this construction, as to how simplificate or just giving clear notions of what is what. Without History, there would no be Civs.
Only in the most basic, literal sense in that the overall themes and representations are abstractions of what actually occurred in human history. Beyond that, realism in and of itself has nothing to offer the game.

Uh, I'm not "your guy", thx.
Needlessly combative in what I thought was a fine discussion but OK. It’s an expression, I don’t really consider you to be my guy.

Weird how I don't feel the same. Most ideas come from vague notions of what realism is and in any case of how it could improve the game. Most of them are not that solid, but solidness is not a strenght of Civ series anyway. (it often lines up with popular notions, litterally, put as is, while it could have been done otherwise easily.)
It’s not weird that we don’t feel exactly the same. We are two different human beings. I don’t understand the rest of the point about “solidness.”
 
Only in the most basic, literal sense in that the overall themes and representations are abstractions of what actually occurred in human history. Beyond that, realism in and of itself has nothing to offer the game.
"Realism" in a game usually means 'simulation', and a simulation is not a game, it is a learning device, and (in my experience) about as much fun as having dental work done by a drunk with a pair of pliers.

But History - and here I don't mean a quick glance at Wikipedia, but in the original Greek root word meaning "to learn by study" - is a Huge Database from which game mechanics and devices can be derived. I don't care what kind of Genius Game Designer you are, you cannot make up out of the aether potential game events and relationships as entertaining as what actually happened in history. And as a very good writer once remarked: "Fiction is limited: it has to be believable on some level. History is under no such obligation or limitation." (P. Klass, 1971)

And I would maintain that we are really doing in a game like Civ is acting as Historical Fiction Writers, putting together our own narrative of events for our Civ and our in-game world. This means, as R H remarked, that it only has to be believable 'on some level', not on Every level or even in all instances. After all, Real History isn't. It has room for such Incredible people and events as Narses the Eunuch General, Alcibiades the Sociopathic General/Diplomat/Politician/Rake, Marshal Maurice of Saxony who was the eldest of 354 illigitimate children of Augustus of Saxony (!) and Machiavelli and Frederick the Great of Prussia - who in addition to what they are famous for, also wrote opera . . .

That does NOT mean anybody should strive to exactly model or duplicate every off the wall historical thing in a game precisely. Again, that is not a game, it is a simulation, which (hopefully) is not the goal of game designers - or most game players.

But, speaking only for myself here, I couldn't begin to make up the kinds of things that happened and people that helped make them happen from 4000 BCE to the present day, so to design a game to cover that span of time and be both playable and entertaining, history makes a very good creative resource.
 
"Realism" in a game usually means 'simulation', and a simulation is not a game, it is a learning device, and (in my experience) about as much fun as having dental work done by a drunk with a pair of pliers.

But History - and here I don't mean a quick glance at Wikipedia, but in the original Greek root word meaning "to learn by study" - is a Huge Database from which game mechanics and devices can be derived. I don't care what kind of Genius Game Designer you are, you cannot make up out of the aether potential game events and relationships as entertaining as what actually happened in history. And as a very good writer once remarked: "Fiction is limited: it has to be believable on some level. History is under no such obligation or limitation." (P. Klass, 1971)

And I would maintain that we are really doing in a game like Civ is acting as Historical Fiction Writers, putting together our own narrative of events for our Civ and our in-game world. This means, as R H remarked, that it only has to be believable 'on some level', not on Every level or even in all instances. After all, Real History isn't. It has room for such Incredible people and events as Narses the Eunuch General, Alcibiades the Sociopathic General/Diplomat/Politician/Rake, Marshal Maurice of Saxony who was the eldest of 354 illigitimate children of Augustus of Saxony (!) and Machiavelli and Frederick the Great of Prussia - who in addition to what they are famous for, also wrote opera . . .

That does NOT mean anybody should strive to exactly model or duplicate every off the wall historical thing in a game precisely. Again, that is not a game, it is a simulation, which (hopefully) is not the goal of game designers - or most game players.

But, speaking only for myself here, I couldn't begin to make up the kinds of things that happened and people that helped make them happen from 4000 BCE to the present day, so to design a game to cover that span of time and be both playable and entertaining, history makes a very good creative resource.
I don't quite understand. Where in Civ is there room for the in-depth, philosophical interpretation of history that you're alluding to?

The history in Civ is largely limited to two things: the skeleton framework of human history that guides the overall flow of the game, and the different historical facts that provide the window-dressing and flavor for the game's systems, mechanics, and factions. These things require no sort of esoteric knowledge, and there is practically nothing useful or interesting for us to observe about these things to the developers beyond "I just finished reading a Wikipedia article. The devs should add this" which is what 95% of fan ideas boil down to.

Reciting historical facts is the lowest hanging fruit for people to critique or comment on for historical games. It doesn't require in-depth thinking, it doesn't require reasoned consideration of how every other facet of the game is affected...it doesn't even require you to really play and understand the game. It's fun for people to talk about their pet subjects. It's absolutely no coincidence that the topic that generates the most discussion for Civ is "What civs do you want to see?"

But I'm much more interested in different ways to add to the core gameplay loop, or elegant solutions to entrenched problems the series has.
 
Only in the most basic, literal sense in that the overall themes and representations are abstractions of what actually occurred in human history.
Not even close. (see it as a "light simulation" and not a repetition : even scholars do not agree about some History facts interpretation : that lets a fair margin to the "light simulation" part)
Beyond that, realism in and of itself has nothing to offer the game.
Agree to disagree. "Realism" is what someone can identify as such. It's not "Reality".
It’s an expression
I know, but kind of familiar, condescending one IMO. :)
I don’t understand the rest of the point about “solidness.”
The correct word according to Google is "solidity".
 
Thanks to Old World and Crusader Kings III, they may be looking at some way to Personalize the Leaders, even have some kind of Dynastic mechanic instead of or patched onto the Immortal Leaderboards. How that would work I have no idea, but it would be building on the personification of individuals which is already a major part of Civ: named Leaders, Governors, Great People, etc.
In the Civ 3 mod CCM in combination with the Flintlock mod a first step here is done by eraspecific different leaders. The personalization of the different leaders there must be done by giving them different special buildings and resources. Firaxis should have much better ways to do this in Civ 7.

Spoiler :

Era 1:



Era 2:



Era 3:


 
I don't quite understand. Where in Civ is there room for the in-depth, philosophical interpretation of history that you're alluding to?

The history in Civ is largely limited to two things: the skeleton framework of human history that guides the overall flow of the game, and the different historical facts that provide the window-dressing and flavor for the game's systems, mechanics, and factions. These things require no sort of esoteric knowledge, and there is practically nothing useful or interesting for us to observe about these things to the developers beyond "I just finished reading a Wikipedia article. The devs should add this" which is what 95% of fan ideas boil down to.

Reciting historical facts is the lowest hanging fruit for people to critique or comment on for historical games. It doesn't require in-depth thinking, it doesn't require reasoned consideration of how every other facet of the game is affected...it doesn't even require you to really play and understand the game. It's fun for people to talk about their pet subjects. It's absolutely no coincidence that the topic that generates the most discussion for Civ is "What civs do you want to see?"

But I'm much more interested in different ways to add to the core gameplay loop, or elegant solutions to entrenched problems the series has.
Well, "historical facts" might be the lowest hanging fruit, but that was not the basis for the criticism of the games I mentioned: Humankind, Old World, or Millennia. As I read the critical comments on those, they seemed to be based on Lack of Gamer Agency, Lack of Identification with the faction you were playing, and confusing game mechanics. That's probably incomplete, because I stopped reading anything about Humankind or Old World many months ago and haven't read anything about Millennia since the Demo.

But that said, I don't think we are entirely different in our views. By far the most important things in making a game both popular and playable are game mechanics and game-play in general that are clean, clear, and work to advance the stated objectives of the game ('Victory Conditions'). A huge bonus is game mechanics and game play that can advance in several different directions based on different objectives, which enhances Replay potential enormously.

The disagreement is in Emphasis: I happen to think that there are potential solutions, or ideas for solutions to problems in the core gameplay or entrenched problems in game mechanics in the Historical Database. Especially in a game that identifies itself as a historical 4X in all of its presentation: Leaders, Civs, Great People, Wonders, cities, named terrain, titles of Techs, Civic, Policies, etc - any Fantasy elements in any of those gets commented on almost immediately, because it goes against what gamers have been led to expect from the basic Civ game. And the more 'esoteric knowledge' available about that Database the better, even if no specific part of it makes its way into the game.

The examples I gave were trivial with regards to ordinary game play - they were designed to be more outre than useful.

But for another example of Historical Detail that could effect an element of game design, the Ilkum (Ilka) policy in Civ VI, an Economic Policy, in-game relates to getting cheap Builders. Historically, this policy was present under the same name in Sumer, Babylon, Akkad, and Assyria. I still have to check the Mitanni and Hitittes, but it appears to have been generally in use in the Bronze Age Middle East. It was a form of Conscription, rounding up a percentage of the available manpower each year for either military or civil service - enlisted workers or soldiers. In other words, while immensely useful in gathering manpower for irrigation, Wonder-building and other Civic projects, it also provided a large force for the armies, mostly composed of spearmen and archers or slingers, but occasionally more impressive troops like chariotry.

Knowing that, as a Policy or Civic, Ilkum/Ilka could be used for cheap troops as well as 'free' or cheap Builders or major discounts on the 'currency' used to build Improvements or Wonders depending on the game design. It could also be the basis for a very early division of military Units into (cheap) Amateurs and (expensive) Professionals, since that was its real use in the historical civilizations. I don't think any Civ since Civ III has modeled any variables in Troop Cost, but if that is deemed necessary or worthwhile as a game mechanism, here's a historical effect that, from the very early game, can be used as a basis for a game mechanic to effect that.

Not a huge effect, but little effects Add Up, and it's far easier to start from something already used and developed to address some 'problem' than to try to make up a solution yourself.

To quote Master Kung, one of the three ways of acting wisely is Imitation, and it is the Easiest.
 
It's hard for me to believe I would make an accurate prediction because there are things I think should be changed that the devs don't agree with. I think leader training should go but it's been in most version (I think it has..)

I'm with people who think there will be more to customizing civs.
 
It's hard for me to believe I would make an accurate prediction
It's not prediction, it's about what you would personnally wish. :)
because there are things I think should be changed that the devs don't agree with. I think leader training should go but it's been in most version (I think it has..)
Yes, it annoys me but it seems that the devs aren't ready to throw leaderheads away. But hey, never say "never". :)
I'm with people who think there will be more to customizing civs.
I need to read a post of mine to remember how could this be done. (but where the heck is it ?) :)
 
I think VII keeps at least districts, eurekas and multiple leaders for nations.

I also think it continues with the stylished graphics style.

I remember that one Firaxis job application mentioned "familiarity with miniature table top games" or something like that, I take it as a clue that Civ VII could have some tactical combat screen.
 
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