So Who wins the Scenario Ark?

[Breunor]

Who Won the Scenario Ark?
My understanding is that the scenario ark is a ‘possible’ outcome; every epic game presents another. Regardless as to whether we view the scenarios as ‘official’, we can contemplate how the world order works out in that set of events.

EVERYTHING below is a spoiler; I’ll be talking about the specific outcome of the scenarios so please do not read until you have played every scenario.

One assumption I make below is that PLAYER WINS every scenario played. That is, we don’t say ‘The Lanun lost because when I played, I lost the scenario and never played it again’. No, we assume the player wins. After all, the player can start over, reload, etc!

However, we do know that there are many ways to play each scenario. I’ve played each once and read through some of the threads, but of course our outcomes and possibly our views will depend on how these were played. Also, please note I’m just writing this from memory, and I may be forgetting some important stuff.

Here is my first thought:

Spoiler :

Biggest winner

Lanun – Falamar. Falamar becomes the de facto leader of a very large alliance that saves the world both from the Sheaim and the Illians. He appears to be the leader so emerges as a political power.

Big Winners

Decius, either Calabim or Malakim – I played the Malakim so I may not know the full Calabim side, but Decius appears to turn whichever side he is with into a major power and participates in stunning victories over the other side, along with a variety of other powers. I put them slightly below Lanun/Falamar because I think Decius has caused some internal rifts within his people.

Mercurians – I probably put the Mercurians third, but still a big winner. Their purpose is to defeat the Infernals, which they accomplished, apparently decisively, in Lord of Balors.

Medium winners

These are not in any particular order:

Balseraph – Oddly, the Balseraph under Keelyn seem to fight with the winning side, usually the ‘good guys’, and have a number of scenario wins. The fate of the Balseraph may also depend on the outcome of the Momus. I’ve heard that Perpentech can be defeated in this scenario (it didn’t happen for me). However, we can argue that the Balseraph are better off under Keelyn anyway.

Hippus – I considered putting them into the big winner bucket; I think they won pretty much every scenario they are in, which is a lot! In addition, they do establish themselves as a major power, and under Rohanna they are well led and aligned to now powerful Lanun. But the loss of their capital and the treacherous death of Tasunke puts them in this bucket for me.

Mild Winners

Bannor – I thought about putting them in the medium winner category. They win a lot of scenarios, help defeat Hyborem, help defeat the orcs, and help Falamar. So I think the Bannor emerge as fairly powerful. However, they lose their capital in Blood of Angels. Even more important, I get the impression they are viewed as a second tier power in these victories. The Bannor seem to be the Bannor, going through adversity, but coming out well.

Elohim – It seems that the Elohim stay as a major power for good, and the analysis around their peace treaty with the Infernals indicates that they are still a powerful force. However, they do not seem to benefit from the wars, and face a lot of personal tragedy, felt by both of their leaders.

Khazad – Winners in Against the Wall, they don’t have much other presence. They don’t appear to be a world power, but they seem to have won a victory

Neutral

Amurites – We may want to view them as winners – not fighting in a war is usually a good thing, you usually come out better. Obviously, though, the Amurites aren’t what they used to be! Conversely, I think they get by with not fighting given that they defeated Mulcarn the first time.

Svaltalfar - I think the elves were the hardest for me to place. I have to admit I don’t know all of the endings to The Splintered Court. The unification of the elves appears to be a good thing, but clearly the elves do not emerge from ‘Splintered Court’ in great shape. However, they still are powerful politically. I put the Svaltalfar above the Ljosalfar because I think the Svaltalfar do better in the Ljosalfar wins than the Ljosalfar do in the Svartalfar wins. (I hope this paragraph makes sense!) they also get beaten up in Wages of Sin.

Minor Losers

Clan of Embers – Defeated in Barbarian Assault, I didn’t get the impression this was a decisive defeat and I’m sure they will be back.

Luchiurp – Also difficult to place. They are on the winning side in quite a few scenarios, but they lose Barnaxus to the Hippus. If, at the end, the Luchiurp can get the pieces of Barnaxus back, I would put them as minor winners.

Medium Losers

Ljosalfar I think the Ljosalfar are in pretty bad shape no matter who wins the Splintered Court

Sidar – They get pounded in Against the Grey, but fortunately for them Decius seems to leave them pretty much alone. It is clearly a defeat but I think they can come back at some point.

Calabim/Malakim – Whichever one Decius keeps beating up. Possibly could slip into major losers, they do get pounded. But we have so many in that category, I thought they came out better than many who are there now.

Major Losers

Illians – Totally defeated. They start as a minor power and end up totally defeated. The one ‘positive’ they had is that the did leave a mark on the world, but it is all lost. They cannot be a political power in a world without rampant snow.

Doviello – Same as the Illians – They had an opportunity to be a powerful ally of the Illians, they can never be a power in a hot world and they know it.

Sheaim – They seem to be losers in about 58 scenarios, they are always getting the bleep beaten out of them. Clearly Tebryn is decisively defeated in the Black Tower. However, Os-Gabella may still be significant.

Totally destroyed

Infernals – Defeated in their home plan by Basium and his allies

Grigori – Defeated in Blood of Angels, they never seem to come back. While many others have lost cities, the loss of Cassiel seems to me to be a disaster. Cities can be rebuilt, empires can respawn; but I just don’t think the Grigori can remain what they are without Cassiel. I am aware that Cassiel tries to remove himself from their management, but I do think his presence was a key to their society.

Greatest Defeat

Kuriotates –While the Grigori may never be same without Cassiel, I think the Kuriotates are totally destroyed without Eurabatres. They don’t come back in other scenarios and I think the Kuriotates are done for good.

 

[cyther]

I agree with you pretty much. Below is your list with a few comments

Spoiler :

Biggest winner

Lanun – Falamar. Falamar becomes the de facto leader of a very large alliance that saves the world both from the Sheaim and the Illians. He appears to be the leader so emerges as a political power.

Falamar was the real winner here. But outside of the civs I would say Laroth took a huge victory either at or right below Falamar.

Big Winners

Decius, either Calabim or Malakim – I played the Malakim so I may not know the full Calabim side, but Decius appears to turn whichever side he is with into a major power and participates in stunning victories over the other side, along with a variety of other powers. I put them slightly below Lanun/Falamar because I think Decius has caused some internal rifts within his people.

Totally agree here. The only problem is that everything will collapse when/if Decius ever dies

Mercurians – I probably put the Mercurians third, but still a big winner. Their purpose is to defeat the Infernals, which they accomplished, apparently decisively, in Lord of Balors.

I would put them a lot lower. Hyborem is only resting in Agares' vault and the quest of the Mercurians is well... hopeless. Mulcarn's vault will probably kill all of the humans. Mammon's will be a horrible battle and weaken the Mercurians too much for they to go much further. Then Basium will probably become trapped in an endless war until he becomes a demon himself.

This is without any god taking action which they easily could do. Erebus may be safe for many generations but if Agares can revive his worship on Erebus after the AoI he could after it gets trounced by the Mercuians.

Medium winners

These are not in any particular order:

Balseraph – Oddly, the Balseraph under Keelyn seem to fight with the winning side, usually the ‘good guys’, and have a number of scenario wins. The fate of the Balseraph may also depend on the outcome of the Momus. I’ve heard that Perpentech can be defeated in this scenario (it didn’t happen for me). However, we can argue that the Balseraph are better off under Keelyn anyway.

Hippus – I considered putting them into the big winner bucket; I think they won pretty much every scenario they are in, which is a lot! In addition, they do establish themselves as a major power, and under Rohanna they are well led and aligned to now powerful Lanun. But the loss of their capital and the treacherous death of Tasunke puts them in this bucket for me.

I thinks it's pretty good here..

Mild Winners

Bannor – I thought about putting them in the medium winner category. They win a lot of scenarios, help defeat Hyborem, help defeat the orcs, and help Falamar. So I think the Bannor emerge as fairly powerful. However, they lose their capital in Blood of Angels. Even more important, I get the impression they are viewed as a second tier power in these victories. The Bannor seem to be the Bannor, going through adversity, but coming out well.

Elohim – It seems that the Elohim stay as a major power for good, and the analysis around their peace treaty with the Infernals indicates that they are still a powerful force. However, they do not seem to benefit from the wars, and face a lot of personal tragedy, felt by both of their leaders.

Khazad – Winners in Against the Wall, they don’t have much other presence. They don’t appear to be a world power, but they seem to have won a victory

The Bannor may have benefited from Auric's invasion. Without many of the corrupt priests they may have a chance for growing stronger than ever before.

Neutral

Amurites – We may want to view them as winners – not fighting in a war is usually a good thing, you usually come out better. Obviously, though, the Amurites aren’t what they used to be! Conversely, I think they get by with not fighting given that they defeated Mulcarn the first time.

Svaltalfar - I think the elves were the hardest for me to place. I have to admit I don’t know all of the endings to The Splintered Court. The unification of the elves appears to be a good thing, but clearly the elves do not emerge from ‘Splintered Court’ in great shape. However, they still are powerful politically. I put the Svaltalfar above the Ljosalfar because I think the Svaltalfar do better in the Ljosalfar wins than the Ljosalfar do in the Svartalfar wins. (I hope this paragraph makes sense!) they also get beaten up in Wages of Sin.

Minor Losers

Clan of Embers – Defeated in Barbarian Assault, I didn’t get the impression this was a decisive defeat and I’m sure they will be back.

Luchiurp – Also difficult to place. They are on the winning side in quite a few scenarios, but they lose Barnaxus to the Hippus. If, at the end, the Luchiurp can get the pieces of Barnaxus back, I would put them as minor winners.

I don't see Barnaxus ever comming back. He probably is only a well-crafted golem without Mulcarn's breath.

Medium Losers

Ljosalfar I think the Ljosalfar are in pretty bad shape no matter who wins the Splintered Court

Sidar – They get pounded in Against the Grey, but fortunately for them Decius seems to leave them pretty much alone. It is clearly a defeat but I think they can come back at some point.

Calabim/Malakim – Whichever one Decius keeps beating up. Possibly could slip into major losers, they do get pounded. But we have so many in that category, I thought they came out better than many who are there now.

Major Losers

Illians – Totally defeated. They start as a minor power and end up totally defeated. The one ‘positive’ they had is that the did leave a mark on the world, but it is all lost. They cannot be a political power in a world without rampant snow.

Doviello – Same as the Illians – They had an opportunity to be a powerful ally of the Illians, they can never be a power in a hot world and they know it.

Sheaim – They seem to be losers in about 58 scenarios, they are always getting the bleep beaten out of them. Clearly Tebryn is decisively defeated in the Black Tower. However, Os-Gabella may still be significant.

As long as Os-Gabella lives (which is until they finally win) the Sheaim will still have enough fight in themselves to pull through.

Totally destroyed

Infernals – Defeated in their home plan by Basium and his allies

The Infernals will rise up again. I also suspect that the evil gods may take a huge boost, nearly as much as when Bhall fell once Laroth ascends.

Grigori – Defeated in Blood of Angels, they never seem to come back. While many others have lost cities, the loss of Cassiel seems to me to be a disaster. Cities can be rebuilt, empires can respawn; but I just don’t think the Grigori can remain what they are without Cassiel. I am aware that Cassiel tries to remove himself from their management, but I do think his presence was a key to their society.

Greatest Defeat

Kuriotates –While the Grigori may never be same without Cassiel, I think the Kuriotates are totally destroyed without Eurabatres. They don’t come back in other scenarios and I think the Kuriotates are done for good.

Yeah, the kurios were held together by Cardith. If Auric killed Eurabatres in "the Cult" they will probably be done forever.

 

[Korias]

Just some general thoughts on your list.

Spoiler :

If the player defeats the Balseraphs in the Momus, the Luchiurp should stay as is. Otherwise, I'd knock them down a tier. This only occurs if the player, Perp, and Beeri are the last three alive, but gives you the ability to settle Luchiurp cities in the final scenario.

If the player choses to go with Malakim for Decius, then the Bannor should be boosted up a bit, as Decius's father informs him of the Bannor's decision to join the overcouncil. This may or may not affect the tier rating though.

The Lanun under Hannah get smashed fairly early on in "Fall of Cuantine", and we cannot forget the fact that Amelanchelier or Volanna may be gven to Halfmorn, depending, improving or weaking their respective factions at the bonus of the Doviello.

Speaking of the elves, I never had to beat up the Svarts in Wages of Sin- they were the first to convert to Empy after I did.

As far as the Grigori, I agree that they're pretty much screwed. But Cassiel was a philosopher, and as such his ideals may live on and any "New Grigori" could possibly act the same way, although they would never achieve the same power. But they could emerge as another agnostic state, milling about. Though they are more likely to join in with the Hippus, due to the Hero-Mercenary similarity.

I'd like to think that the Sidar are becoming more worse off as time goes on, due to the sheer fact that every waned individual joins Laroth, which is one thing that they certainly DONT want.

Speaking of which, I hardly see a reason that the Illians are now totally and completely destroyed- Auric is fighting for Laroth and if Laroth succeeds, Auric can certainly return to the realm of the living and rebuild the Illians.

The Amurites I'm still iffy on, as I was never sure of their position in all of this, with Valledia only letting the Order spread due to threat of Infernal enroachment. This infers that they may be mildly on the lower end of things, given that they let it get that far. Plus, you would think that given their experience in fighting the Illians, they would be a strong ally and could have shifted things much more quickly than what we saw in the scenarios.

 

[Folket]

I do not see Grigori ever joining Hippus. Mercenary is about doing other people dirty work and not think so much. Grigori is about working for yourself and question athority.

 

[esvath]

I agree with you on several notes

Spoiler :

Biggest winner

Lanun – Falamar. Falamar becomes the de facto leader of a very large alliance that saves the world both from the Sheaim and the Illians. He appears to be the leader so emerges as a political power.

Agree. I don't know why Falamar deserves this, though. Or maybe this is the effect of designing the scenarios while watching Pirates of Carribean?

Big Winners

Decius, either Calabim or Malakim – I played the Malakim so I may not know the full Calabim side, but Decius appears to turn whichever side he is with into a major power and participates in stunning victories over the other side, along with a variety of other powers. I put them slightly below Lanun/Falamar because I think Decius has caused some internal rifts within his people.

I think that Malakim victory will be greater than Calabim one. Malakim victory consists of Decius as a successful general, Varn as a respected (if not highest) Empyrean spiritual leader and a world with Empyrean and Overcouncil hold sway. This of course bring Malakim as one of the greatest world power.

On the Calabim victory, we have Decius split with Flauros. Both regard each other coldly. Calabim Decius doesn't worship Esus and the Undercouncil never meant as binding as the Overcouncil.

Mercurians – I probably put the Mercurians third, but still a big winner. Their purpose is to defeat the Infernals, which they accomplished, apparently decisively, in Lord of Balors.

I would put them lower, as cyther argued.

Medium winners

These are not in any particular order:

Balseraph – Oddly, the Balseraph under Keelyn seem to fight with the winning side, usually the ‘good guys’, and have a number of scenario wins. The fate of the Balseraph may also depend on the outcome of the Momus. I’ve heard that Perpentech can be defeated in this scenario (it didn’t happen for me). However, we can argue that the Balseraph are better off under Keelyn anyway.

I think that Balseraph was split into two factions. One under Perpentach still control Jubilee (although in ruins; Falamar evidently didn't want to have to do anything with them. Beeri might took some revenge. But Jubilee still stand.) Keelyn able to control Fane of Lesser. If these combined somehow, I think Balseraph wins more than Mercurians.

Hippus – I considered putting them into the big winner bucket; I think they won pretty much every scenario they are in, which is a lot! In addition, they do establish themselves as a major power, and under Rohanna they are well led and aligned to now powerful Lanun. But the loss of their capital and the treacherous death of Tasunke puts them in this bucket for me.

I thinks Hippus lost too much to be a winner. At best, they are a minor loser, IMHO. According to Rhoanna, in the end of the Black Tower,

"they [the Illians and Doviello] killed him and turned on the Aroul-Hippi. There are a fragile few that were able to escape the purge. Altheriol-ta-Mealthiel is gone, our people are slaughtered and the only armies that remain are those that fought here."

Thus, what is left for Hippus is Rhoanna and her band. I thought that after the scenarios, the Hippus will be absorbed into Lanun somehow. Or at least, they will be under protection (in the name of alliance) of Lanun.

Mild Winners

Bannor – I thought about putting them in the medium winner category. They win a lot of scenarios, help defeat Hyborem, help defeat the orcs, and help Falamar. So I think the Bannor emerge as fairly powerful. However, they lose their capital in Blood of Angels. Even more important, I get the impression they are viewed as a second tier power in these victories. The Bannor seem to be the Bannor, going through adversity, but coming out well.

What the Bannor had been through is a purge, I believe. If the purge succeeded, the sacking of Torrolerial has destroyed most corrupt of Bannor. What is left with Capria is the truer and stronger ones. And I believe that they will become stronger. Even Sabathiel last words (when he lost in the scenario) foresight so. Thus, they are the fourth winner IMO.

But if the purge is failed, many corrupted Bannor still alive, then it will seriously weaken the Bannor. I read MC sometimes mentioned that Bannor Highpriest become so corrupted that they hunt true followers of Junil. I do not know whether this is before or after the scenario. If it happened after the scenario, then the purge is failed, IMHO.

Elohim – It seems that the Elohim stay as a major power for good, and the analysis around their peace treaty with the Infernals indicates that they are still a powerful force. However, they do not seem to benefit from the wars, and face a lot of personal tragedy, felt by both of their leaders.

I think that Elohim should be the third big winner here. Sure, they lost much. Ethne death is one of the losses. But in her Wages of Sin ending, she contemplated the progress of war. Clearly the Elohim lost much during the war but able to stand firm and become stronger. It might be her leadership that inherited strength to Elohim, made the Infernal fear them so and agreed to peace settlemen Einion offered.

In my opinion, the scenarios transform Elohim (under Ethne leadership) from a good but not powerful, respected but not feared nation into one major nation Einion leads.

Of course, this is based on assumption that Einion's pedia entry is happened after the scenarios.

Khazad – Winners in Against the Wall, they don’t have much other presence. They don’t appear to be a world power, but they seem to have won a victory

Agree.


Neutral

Amurites – We may want to view them as winners – not fighting in a war is usually a good thing, you usually come out better. Obviously, though, the Amurites aren’t what they used to be! Conversely, I think they get by with not fighting given that they defeated Mulcarn the first time.

One thing I rather disappointed with the scenarios is the absence of Amurites in major conflicts. Heck, the pedia mentioned Amurites as yummy steak the Infernals leered upon! Both Dain and Valledia struggled hard to keep Infernal off from Amurites lands. But why they didn't show at all in the scenario?

Regardless, I think the Amurites is a rather small-ish and unimportant nation (speaking in military might and ideological strenght). Perhaps the Amurites now is a nation full of scholars and philosophers. Their use of magic had become more and more domesticated (as a contrary to battle magic). They also become all-pragmatist, didn't concern with ideologies and religions.

Svaltalfar - I think the elves were the hardest for me to place. I have to admit I don’t know all of the endings to The Splintered Court. The unification of the elves appears to be a good thing, but clearly the elves do not emerge from ‘Splintered Court’ in great shape. However, they still are powerful politically. I put the Svaltalfar above the Ljosalfar because I think the Svaltalfar do better in the Ljosalfar wins than the Ljosalfar do in the Svartalfar wins. (I hope this paragraph makes sense!) they also get beaten up in Wages of Sin.

I think the Svart should be in minor winners or even medium winners. In both outcomes (Ljos win or Svart win of the scenario), the Svart surely gains upper hand from the Ljos. They will live and play important part in Erebus conflicts. Militarily, they might be weakened from the Splintered Court. But politically, they still held a great power, both as an active actor (if Svart wins) or as a more mild puppet-master (if Ljos wins)


Minor Losers

Clan of Embers – Defeated in Barbarian Assault, I didn’t get the impression this was a decisive defeat and I’m sure they will be back.

Agree.

Luchiurp – Also difficult to place. They are on the winning side in quite a few scenarios, but they lose Barnaxus to the Hippus. If, at the end, the Luchiurp can get the pieces of Barnaxus back, I would put them as minor winners.

Agree that Barnaxus will never comming back. Luchuirp fate as an empire is decided in The Momus, IMO. If player managed to secure alliance with Beeri and overthrow Perpentach, then Luchuirp will have a good start to rebuild. But if not, then the Luchuirp lost much of their power and should fall into medium losers.

Medium Losers

Ljosalfar I think the Ljosalfar are in pretty bad shape no matter who wins the Splintered Court

I think that the Ljos is medium losers when player played Ljosalfar and win in Splintered Court. And they fall into totally destroyed when player played Svartalfar and win.


Sidar – They get pounded in Against the Grey, but fortunately for them Decius seems to leave them pretty much alone. It is clearly a defeat but I think they can come back at some point.

Sure they get win but Decius (both as Malakim/Calabim) agreed to leave them alone. Wouldn't this mean that Sidar only lost minor defeat? Their true defeat is against Laroth, which is not the focus of this scenarios arc (and I surely hope will be the focus of next scenarios arc )


Calabim/Malakim – Whichever one Decius keeps beating up. Possibly could slip into major losers, they do get pounded. But we have so many in that category, I thought they came out better than many who are there now.

Agree.


Major Losers

Illians – Totally defeated. They start as a minor power and end up totally defeated. The one ‘positive’ they had is that the did leave a mark on the world, but it is all lost. They cannot be a political power in a world without rampant snow.

Doviello – Same as the Illians – They had an opportunity to be a powerful ally of the Illians, they can never be a power in a hot world and they know it.

Wouldn't Illians and Doviello fit with "Totally Destructed" or even "Greatest Defeat" category better?

Sheaim – They seem to be losers in about 58 scenarios, they are always getting the bleep beaten out of them. Clearly Tebryn is decisively defeated in the Black Tower. However, Os-Gabella may still be significant.

As long as Os-Gabella lives (which is until they finally win) the Sheaim will still have enough fight in themselves to pull through.

I agree.

Totally destroyed

Infernals – Defeated in their home plan by Basium and his allies


I think that the Infernal only suffered several set backs. A century or so peace from the Infernals for mortals in Erebus but not more than that. They will be back, especially when Os Gabella managed to put Sheaim back at the stage.

Laroth ascendency should be prevented by Good and Neutral gods, IMHO. We already have 8 Evils (1 dead), 7 Neutrals (1 comatose and his nightmare become the source of an evil religion) and 6 Goods. If Laroth succeed in becoming new (evil) God of Death, then the balance will be more tipped to evil. Even for a mod titled Fall from Heaven, some balance in good-and-evil is a must, IMHO

Grigori – Defeated in Blood of Angels, they never seem to come back. While many others have lost cities, the loss of Cassiel seems to me to be a disaster. Cities can be rebuilt, empires can respawn; but I just don’t think the Grigori can remain what they are without Cassiel. I am aware that Cassiel tries to remove himself from their management, but I do think his presence was a key to their society.

Yes, their defeat is major. But I think Cassiel's ideals will live through the people and a new Grigori will be built. Even more so, Auric stated before he killed Cassiel that he had thought he needed to raze every Grigori cities before finding Cassiel. That is a somewhat proof that Auric had not raze every Grigori cities yet. Thus, there is a hope that Grigori will prevail.


Greatest Defeat

Kuriotates –While the Grigori may never be same without Cassiel, I think the Kuriotates are totally destroyed without Eurabatres. They don’t come back in other scenarios and I think the Kuriotates are done for good.

I don't know whether Eurabatres death is a Death or only temporary floating around until s/he found another body. But I don't think that Kuriotates defeat is more devastating than Illians, thus proper a category for itself.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Elder Methyl]

I don't know whether Eurabatres death is a Death or only temporary floating around until s/he found another body. But I don't think that Kuriotates defeat is more devastating than Illians, thus proper a category for itself.

I agree. If Eurabatres was merely sent back to his vault like all immortal beings, then Cardith and the Kuriotates might live on.