So Your Kid Wants to Be Vegan....

[Farm Boy]

In general, I think people should support their kids when they're trying to make independent moral choices (especially when these moral choices are trending towards 'doing less harm'). There's the stupid societal trend where meat-eaters gloat about their meat consumption, as if it's something to brag about. But if a kid is trying to minimize their footprints, then making efforts to support them is worthwhile - if only to show that you value their ability to engage in moral reasoning.

Sometimes you'll have to put your foot down for health reasons. Sometimes you'll have to put your foot down for budgetary reasons. But, even then, compromises are available. Agree to give up X to make up for the fact that they need to eat Y, showing how the aggregate harms are going down. There's a very large difference between a kid who refuses to eat anything other than pizza pockets and a kid who refuses to eat pork because they feel sorry for the piggies.

There was an era where we forced kids to execute animals as a ritual passage in 'growing up'. This isn't denying that the world requires some hardness that has to be gained through practical means. But you can also overdo it.

Was an era. Cute.

 

[Arwon]

Not sure I'm buying that a vegan diet in NZ is necessarily more expensive than a meat one either, unless you're just loading up on processed fake meat products and the like https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/...-vegan-slash-your-grocery-bill-by-40-per-cent

Claire Insley of the Vegan Society New Zealand, who has been vegan for 22 years, said her grocery bills have not been affected by rising food costs.

“My grocery bills are still fairly cheap,” said Insley. “I am not hugely noticing the cost of my staples increasing. Those who eat a wholefood vegan diet will likely be finding the same. Beans, pulses and lentils remain fairly cheap, and rice and pasta have not significantly increased.

“Oats and other grains still seem to be holding their own at the moment. It’s very easy these days to grow your own veggies – even in a confined space – and there’s even mushroom growing kits readily available, which are great value for money.”

[...]

Auckland mayoral candidate Dr Michael Morris, who is a vegan, has published research that he carried with Dr John Livesey that compares the costs of plant-based protein with animal protein in supermarkets in Auckland and Christchurch, as well as the nutritional value measuring protein per 100 grams.

When updating the prices that he collated in 2020, not only is plant-based protein cheaper, it can rival meat on nutritional value.

For example, comparing prices of various food proteins collected in Tauranga in July, Stuff found that textured vegetable protein is $0.65 per 100 grams, compared to minced beef at $1.60 per 100 grams. The plant protein contains 47 grams of protein per 100grams, compared to beef which contains 23 grams.

Red lentils were $0.72 per 100 grams with 24 grams of protein. Cows milk powder cost $1.20 per 100 grams, but had just three grams of protein. Colby cheese cost $0.98 per 100g with 23.3 grams of protein.

I'm not even vegetarian but honestly: just eat more beans everyone

 

[schlaufuchs]

I don’t even think it needs to be “sorry kiddo you gotta pay your own way if you want a steak.” As Syn noted, kids aren’t dense and they aren’t unaware of reality. Sitting down with a kiddo and saying like “steak is a sometimes food, so we can only have it once or twice a month,” and letting them pick the steak day or the steak meal (and maybe let them help with the shopping or food prep) is also a way that allows the kid to express their preferences, have agency in their lives, and try new things without having to wreck your finances. I think the binary thinking of “you must always move heaven and earth to accede to the child’s every whim,” or “you must automatically shut down any suggestion that doesn’t accord with your plans or inconveniences you in any way whatsoever,” is not a healthy way to think about parenting, and I think both attitudes lead to bad outcomes down the road.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I think this is all totally reasonable. I didn’t always have the most fun experiences with meals either, and my dad’s relationship to my picky habits really didn’t help.

Right now I do a sizable chunk of the cooking in our home. I’m vegetarian, so the meals I make tend to be meat free. My partner is not vegetarian, but as I said, I make most of the meals, so she is mostly vegetarian by extension. If she wants meat, she asks for some, and I’ll accommodate it - usually it’s like, a bit of bacon on her half of a pizza. When we go out to eat she almost always orders meat. I think that seems perfectly fine, as you say.

So I think y’all are right. If kiddo wants a steak, I’d be perfectly happy to cook one up.

Incidentally, good parm is really tough to replace, but I recently discovered that all bel gioioso cheeses are veggie!

Peaceful accommodation is a Good Thing. I remember a vegetarian friend got upset when we were at the production party for The King & I (during my theatre years in the '80s). Steak was on offer, so I figured why not - I don't get it that often, so decided to have one. My friend stared at my plate and said, "I suppose you're going to sit there in front of me and eat that." I said yes, he said he couldn't look at me while I was doing that and he'd eat at another table and see me later.

Fine, his preference and his right. He wasn't obnoxious about it, just unhappy. We never had an argument about it (which was a relief that we never argued about anything; he died several years later, so it's nice that I only have good memories).

Being vegan protects cows.

If nobody eats beef or cheese or drinks milk, what are we supposed to do with the cows? They're a bit big for a house pet.

I don’t even think it needs to be “sorry kiddo pick up a shift down the mines if you want a steak.” As Syn noted, kids aren’t dense and they aren’t unaware of reality. Sitting down with a kiddo and saying like “steak is a sometimes food, so we can only have it once or twice a month,” and letting them pick the steak day or the steak meal (and maybe let them help with the shopping or food prep) is also a way that allows the kid to express their preferences, have agency in their lives, and try new things without having to wreck your finances. I think the binary thinking of “you must always move heaven and earth to accede to the child’s every whim,” or “you must automatically shut down any suggestion that doesn’t accord with your plans or inconveniences you in any way whatsoever,” is not a healthy way to think about parenting, and I think both attitudes lead to bad outcomes down the road.

This is about kids who don't want steak, though. They want no meat at all. If they live somewhere that growing their own veggies would be easy, no problem.

Consider that there are places in the world with a growing season that's short to nonexistent and due to that plus insane regulations on who can grow and sell food to whom, you get a situation like in Canada where we actually import an insane amount of stuff that we're capable of growing ourselves. If a drought or fire happens on the other side of the world, there are things that end up in short supply here.

There are actually municipalities or communities that don't allow gardens for the purpose of growing food. Apparently if you want to grow your own lettuce and carrots, the multinational corporations will starve. Or the neighbors will be annoyed.

They've been experimenting with greenhouses in the Arctic, since you can't grow much out in the open. Food is insanely expensive up there, and at certain times of year can only be brought in by plane or boat. Even the ice roads aren't always reliable anymore due to climate change.

I find it useful to impart upon them, at the earliest of ages, that the world is a cruel and unsentimental place where even as an adult you won’t be treated with dignity, respect, or even basic human agency.

That’s a lesson money can’t buy. Shut up and eat your meatloaf. Enjoy it now because it is only going to get worse, and when your soul is finally crushed, you’ll be making the meatloaf.

(I don’t have children, the reasons for which are probably apparent.)

I actually like meatloaf. I even like liver, as long as I don't have to be in the same vicinity while it's being prepared.

they can be involved in food prep

Now that I'm recalling stuff, I remember Adventures in Home-made Pizza (okay, we used the Kraft pizza kits that come with the basics and you add your own toppings). I have no talent for working with dough, so I got my grandmother to do that. I did the rest of it, and came up with some different sorts of combinations.

Things got interesting when I had the Star Trek club over for a meal and meeting. One person wanted no cheese due to dairy issues. Another wanted lots of cheese. Another wanted no meat. So I managed it, but the meatless one was more like a fruit pizza, as the only other non-meat stuff we had on hand were mushrooms. That's when I discovered that oranges and parmesan are a good combination when baked together. I don't recall if that's the time I used grapes... The next time I had them over for a meal and a session of Dungeons & Dragons, we just ordered Chinese food and my grandmother did home-made egg foo yung.

There was a time when we were totally out of other fruit, so I opened a can of fruit cocktail, drained it, and used that. And then there was the time when we didn't even have fruit cocktail, so I salvaged the pulp from a carton of Beep juice (a sort of orange-juice-based drink I had for breakfast fairly often; I haven't seen it in years). It didn't amount to much, but it provided the fruit taste I like with any pizza. Nowadays I like tomatoes on pizza.

Eventually my dad took over the baking (he had a knack for cakes), and I learned to make all sorts of chocolate-based stuff - haystack cookies, my own original recipe for peanut butter cups (whether the chocolate was milk chocolate or yogurt), and chocolate/yogurt-covered grapes and cherries.

 

[Zardnaar]

It isn't a matter of better or worse food. There are plenty of great foods out there that I, alas, cannot eat.

This us assuming you have a choice. If you're allergic or whatever that's something different.

 

[Sarin]

Being vegan protects cows.

You like this.

Spoiler :

 

[Zardnaar]

I xan remember three tines myself or friends complained about food.
1. They wanted steak. I don't recall earing much steak as a jid and it was bever good. Anyway I rarely eat it now. His mother took him to supermarkets and if he put steak in the trolley she took out things he liked to pay for it/make a point. Suffice to say steak consumption didn't go up.

2. Coffee. Friend go a coffee bowl vs mug. In essence it doubled or tripled his coffee consumption. Mother didn't buy more coffee when tgey ran out no more coffee. He eventually stopped using the coffee bowl.

3. I got sick of wheat but and complained about it. I did get things changed by mixing in other cheap cereals. I didn't want vacon and eggs or whatever anyway. To this say I can't handle a booked breakfast daily. I prefer cereal, fruit, yogurt.

This was breakfast as a kid.
https://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/p/sa...2CeuDdu1LDomTqxVCdoaAjDQEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

No fruit sugar, milk hot water. For 15 years. And a cup of milo. Then of them daily increasing to 3. I can't eat them now with hot water I can with cold milk and fruit.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

My mother served shredded wheat for breakfast sometimes. She'd even let me have Corn Pops sometimes.

Nowadays my cereal choices are various kinds of Chex (rice for when I want an actual cereal-and-milk snack, the other kinds without milk just to munch on; it's become a substitute munchie so I'm not tempted into as many potato chips).

 

[schlaufuchs]

Peaceful accommodation is a Good Thing. I remember a vegetarian friend got upset when we were at the production party for The King & I (during my theatre years in the '80s). Steak was on offer, so I figured why not - I don't get it that often, so decided to have one. My friend stared at my plate and said, "I suppose you're going to sit there in front of me and eat that." I said yes, he said he couldn't look at me while I was doing that and he'd eat at another table and see me later.

Fine, his preference and his right. He wasn't obnoxious about it, just unhappy. We never had an argument about it (which was a relief that we never argued about anything; he died several years later, so it's nice that I only have good memories).

My partner initially was very resistant to me going vegetarian because she thought I would be like that or would silently judge her for continuing to eat meat. I suppose I could see it if you’re viscerally horrified by meat production/consumption, or if you believe addressing it is a matter of individual consumer choices. I’m not really either of those. Eating pig or cow makes me sad, because they’re sensitive creatures with internal lives, but I understand that’s a niche position, and deriding others for not subscribing to it won’t help anyway.

This is about kids who don't want steak, though. They want no meat at all. If they live somewhere that growing their own veggies would be easy, no problem.

This is about kids who insist on dietary preferences which might place an additional burden on home finances. For me that would be eating meat (or going vegan, or some other allergic restriction), since I’m already vegetarian (and also, as I said, it is way cheaper and easier to cook veggie and/or accommodate veggie as a meat eater than vice versa).

 

[Zardnaar]

My mother served shredded wheat for breakfast sometimes. She'd even let me have Corn Pops sometimes.

Nowadays my cereal choices are various kinds of Chex (rice for when I want an actual cereal-and-milk snack, the other kinds without milk just to munch on; it's become a substitute munchie so I'm not tempted into as many potato chips).

Shredded wheat?

I have oatmeal now with cheap canbed peaches.

 

[Zardnaar]

My partner initially was very resistant to me going vegetarian because she thought I would be like that or would silently judge her for continuing to eat meat. I suppose I could see it if you’re viscerally horrified by meat production/consumption, or if you believe addressing it is a matter of individual consumer choices. I’m not really either of those. Eating pig or cow makes me sad, because they’re sensitive creatures with internal lives, but I understand that’s a niche position, and deriding others for not subscribing to it won’t help anyway.



This is about kids who insist on dietary preferences which might place an additional burden on home finances. For me that would be eating meat (or going vegan, or some other allergic restriction), since I’m already vegetarian (and also, as I said, it is way cheaper and easier to cook veggie and/or accommodate veggie as a meat eater than vice versa).

In NZ prices can get absurd on things out of season as it's either grown up north in greenhouses or imported.

Berries for example cam beast low as $2.5 nz in season or 8-10 times that price out of season. Generally 4 tines the price but xan explode if Australia or wherever has bad weather.

In winter fresh fruit tends to get replaced by canned fruit.

Generally produce doubles (at least) in price out of season.

FIL has green fingers and glasshouse thankfully.

 

[schlaufuchs]

That’s nice dear

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Shredded wheat?

I have oatmeal now with cheap canbed peaches.

Of course there were no concerns about non-GMO foods when I was a child in the '60s, but the food looks and tastes the same.

There are bite-sized varieties now, some of which are frosted. Chocolate-frosted Mini Wheats are a snack that doesn't need milk, though I'm guessing most people would use milk as they're quite dry without it.

For fruit I currently have a can of cherries, a can of strawberries, and multiple single servings of apple sauce (cinnamon flavored, naturally!) and fruit cocktail.

I've also got some single serving cups of ice cream in the freezer, so will probably flange up something with strawberries and ice cream once we get into spring. Ice cream isn't a winter snack.

If I still lived in my old neighborhood, I know where there are plenty of saskatoon bushes where people can go and pick them. There are also some bushes in the wildlife sanctuary where I used to work... where people are NOT allowed to pick them.

 

[Zardnaar]

View attachment 655723

Of course there were no concerns about non-GMO foods when I was a child in the '60s, but the food looks and tastes the same.

There are bite-sized varieties now, some of which are frosted. Chocolate-frosted Mini Wheats are a snack that doesn't need milk, though I'm guessing most people would use milk as they're quite dry without it.

For fruit I currently have a can of cherries, a can of strawberries, and multiple single servings of apple sauce (cinnamon flavored, naturally!) and fruit cocktail.

I've also got some single serving cups of ice cream in the freezer, so will probably flange up something with strawberries and ice cream once we get into spring. Ice cream isn't a winter snack.

If I still lived in my old neighborhood, I know where there are plenty of saskatoon bushes where people can go and pick them. There are also some bushes in the wildlife sanctuary where I used to work... where people are NOT allowed to pick them.

We have something similar to that here can't recall tgr bone. They're flavoured.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I have oatmeal now with cheap canbed peaches.

Its kinda crazy that canned peaches are cheaper then fresh peaches
I found the ones from Aldis imported from China are the best, probably since they added sugar into the syrup.
But still prefer fresh produce over canned when it comes to fruit

 

[Zardnaar]

Its kinda crazy that canned peaches are cheaper then fresh peaches
I found the ones from Aldis imported from China are the best, probably since they added sugar into the syrup.
But still prefer fresh produce over canned when it comes to fruit

I just grab whatever not to fussy.

I've seen stone fruit get canned. The cooking and dyrup maed any old fruit be alright. Mostly blemished ones.