Some Suggestions

[scholar123]

So far, this mod is really good, and I'd like to give you my admiration since I would never have been able to do this. Despite it's flaws I think it's revolutionary, because it hasn't been done before, or at least, with as much success as this. I've got a few suggestions that may help you out with finishing the mod.

Setting Sun of the Latter Han​

Why do I say that? because that's what this mod is. It lacks a single Three Kingdoms Scenario, and it lacks the final faction "Jin". I have a few faction suggestions, and scenarios to fix that.

Zhang Ju

Anyone care how Gongsun Zan got to Ji...? Zhang Ju made a rebellion up north. He along with Zhang Chun rose in rebellion. The two fought against Liu Yu, which despite popular belief, was Gongsun Zan's direct superior and actually held control over Ji. These two rebelled, made some initial success, and was eventually put down. This was way up in the north, but did not have as much success as the Yellow Turban Rebellion, which was also ill fated. Rebellion would definitely be the belief. The special unit should be some form of basic cavalry with some minor advantages against Archery units. The two rulers should be Zhang Ju and Zhang Chen. Perhaps making the two generals as well. No more than a B in cavalry, and only cavalry. -Do not wiki this. It's not even close to historical.

Ou Xing

Another short lived faction, but it's the one that gave Sun Jian a "rising star" status. This was not part of the Yellow Turban Rebellion. They were not successful. This really should only be included because the much less important Zhang Xian is included. The faction really shouldn't even have a general. But if one "has" to exist. Ou Xing himself. Probably about as powerful as Shen Yi. Only one city, Chang Sha. I wouldn't wiki him, but if you feel the need go right ahead.

Jin

... if you're ever actually planning on having this mod end I'd include this. It's like having a Napoleon and not including Wellington. Semi-fictionally a Leader could be Sima Zhao as well as Sima Yan. Sima Yan is charismatic, imperialistic, and expansive. Also, the belief should be Unification. There's really a wealth of knowledge on this, so it shouldn't be difficult if you want to read up on it.

Liu Yu

This man, and his faction is incredibly important. He was offered the position of Emperor for the coalition and declined. He was Gongsun Zan's boss. He quickly put down Zhang Ju's rebellion and was a high ranking official. Yan Rou should be his general. Charismatic, Spiritual. He should have Liu Biao's 100+ Culture during peace time and Gongsun Du's war prevention. He is really so important that he should be added. at first he should have basically every city that Gongsun Zan has. It would be a shame if you didn't add this.

He Jin

How can you not have the Yellow Turbans and not have He Jin? Included generals Lu Zhi, Huangfu Song, and Zhu Jun. It really should be self explanatory.

Barbarians

So far Barbarians are only really included via some of the factions, Yan Baihu and Meng Huo. While it's true that both were leaders of several groups of barbarians. This really should be brought out a little more. The Wuwan, Qiang, Xiongnu, Shanyue, and Nanman as well as the Di and --- I could go on but that just makes a lot of work. Let's bring it down to five separate factions. Wuwan, I really think they should be an actual faction, but always a vassal of Gongsun Du. While not exactly historically accurate it seems practical. But with the special ability to not be invaded by other barbarians. IE, the faction-less ones. A type of Horsebow unit could be used, or rather shared with Gongsun Du. The Qiang were actually more famous for their infantry than their cavalry and were heavily used during the Three Kingdoms, and actually throughout the entire era. They were really the successful rebellion at the dawn of the decaying Han. Vassals to Han Sui and Ma Teng, until the three Kingdoms where they should have an ability in which when they make peace with a faction all previous negative penalties are forgotten. 'You have declared war on us, You have traded with our worst Enemies, You have brought a war ally against us, Past events have proved hostility towards us' they all disappear and start over. This is mainly due to the faction being basically a mercenary force used both by Shu, Wei, Jin, Han Sui, and Ma Teng.

The Shanyue they should be a faction with a few, maybe three, cities in between Shi Xie's faction and Yan Baihu's former territory. They should first be a vassal of Yan Baihu and then become an entirely autonomous faction. Sharing the special unit of Yan Baihu. I would recommend another leader and a general. There is quite a bit of knowledge on this. I would take a quick looks in Professor Rafe's work. They should have an ability similar to the Qiang in which other barbarians can't invade them, mainly since they were barbarians.

Finally... Korguro. Translation? Korea. Yes, you heard me correctly, Koh-ri-a. This one should have a special archery Unit with a large amount of city defense. The special building should be a wall which allows for more defense. It should have two-four cities right next to Gongsun Du. They are important enough to be added. Gongsun Du is of great importance in Korean History during this time. They should have a tactic similar to Gongsun Du in which you can't really invade them unless you're furious with them. They can be invaded by Barbarians. In essence it should be almost an actual faction. I don't mean for the Korean Peninsula to be added, just a little crammed in at the corner Where Gongsun Du leaves off. All barbarians should not be allowed to adopt a "belief". It solidifies them as a faction lesser to that of the others, also they should ot be allowed to build world wonders. National wonders however are fair game. Also there should be a 25% wait increase for worker buildings. They should not account for a conquest victory as they aren't part of China

Scenarios​

There is a lot of things that could be added here.

The Yellow Turban Rebellion

He Jin has several cities, three generals, and the Emperor. Sun Jian has Xia Pi and is a vassal of He Jin, Dong Zhou should have two cities in the west, also a vassal of He Jin. Zhang Yang (Or Ding Yuan if you want to bring a new leader into the faction) should be there as a vassal of He Jin. Liu Yu should be in You with a defensive pact with He Jin, with Gongsun Zan as his vassal in Bei Ping. Liu Biao, while he hasn't been put there yet, should be in Jing as a vassal of He Jin. Ma Teng and Han Sui should be there with a defensive pact with each other. Gongsun Du... not historical but adds to morphing the rebellions together there. Not at war with anyone though. Shi Xie, Zhang Xian, Sha Mo Ke, Zang Ba, and Zhang Lu/Liu Yan should be included as well. The Yellow Turbans should have every other spot. Barbarians also are included filling up the far reaches. Liu Bei, Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, and a few others can be added as vassals if it's warranted.

The Coalition Against Dong Zhou

Basically an the scenario we have with all of the factions present including Liu Yu. Only Yang Feng is taken and Dong Zhou is the leader. However Dong Zhou should have numerous Production and Gold advantages in the scenario to make the coalition have meaning, which is really only defensive pacts and a war against Dong Zhou. Barbarians included as well, the Sun faction should be pushed down to Chang Sha and a vassal of Yuan Shu. Lu Jiang can be added to Liu Yao or Yuan Shu. It should be programmed so that if Luo Yang is taken, or if 2 years go by the coalition ends and all defensive pacts dissolved.

Liu Bei's Plight

Yuan Shao is dead, up north Nan Pi is with Yuan Tan, You is with Yuan Shang. Shang is a vassal of Gongsun Du. However Zhang Yan becomes a vassal of Cao Cao, most of Yuan Shao's territory not occupied by the siblings are taken by Cao Cao. Yuan Tan is really only included so that he actually has a scenario where he can lead, and it ties in with the events following Guan Du and Liu Bei in Xin Ye. There is no change to Sun Quan. Zhang Xian is taken over by Liu Biao. Xin Ye is now under Liu Bei who is a vassal of Liu Biao. Barbarians included. Liu Bei should have two events in which invading Cao Cao units are destroyed completely. If not then it should have a few elite units in his command.

Fires at Chi Bi

Liu Qi has Jiang Xia, Liu Bei has two other cities. They are allied, not vassal and master. Both have a defensive pact with Sun Quan. All of Jing except Sha Mo Ke is now under Cao Cao. Excess units should be added to Liu Qi and Liu Bei. Yuan Tan should be gone, Shang could be a vassal under Gongsun Du with severely reduced land or destroyed as well. Whatever preference. Ma Teng has been executed and Ma Chao is in command. Added as a merging process similar to Guan Du and Xin Ye.

Liu Bei with Wings

Liu Bei has all of lower Jing, defensive pact with Sun Quan and is at war with Liu Zhang. Ma Chao now has taken over all of Cao Cao's controlled Liang. Han Sui is still present. Cao Cao still have a massive army. This scenario is perhaps unimportant and unneeded. Sha Mo Ke is a vassal of Liu Bei.

King of Han Zhong

Liu Bei has all of Liu Zhang and Zhang Lu's lands. Sha Mo Ke is still a vassal and half of Jing is now under Sun Quan's lands. Shan Yue no longer exist. Ma Chao is fully conquered, although his northern most lands are now under Han Sui, Han Sui actually continued the war with Cao Cao after Ma Chao's fall for a decade before finally dying while considering joining Liu Bei. The Qiang are Han Sui's vassals. Meng Huo is a vassal of Liu Bei. It's an important scenario, and it's the first actual three Kingdoms scenario.

The Three Kingdoms

Liu Bei or Liu Shan, depends on historical prevalence, is in control of Yi at war with Cao Cao and Nan Man with a defensive pact with Sun Quan. Shi Xie is Sun Quan's vassal. Gongsun Du is still up in the north. Han Sui is gone and the Qiang are now independent. Not much else, it's pretty clear cut. Emperor tactic available to Shu, Wei, and Wu.

Fall of Shu

Liu Shan no longer has Han Zhong or any of his northern territories. The Nanman territories and some of Yi that connect to Wu are still in Shu's hands but it is about to fall. Gongsun Du is dead and Gongsun Yuan is in control. He's at war with Cao Pi and a new immersing force under Sima Yi in the north (Jin). The Qiang are vassals of Wei or destroyed. The Emperor Tactic is available to everyone. Sun Quan is still there but at war with Liu Shan. Luo Xian could be a new hero at Yong An defending it from Wu. It's not so clear cut as before, but taking on Liu Shan should be a challenge. A lot of troops should be in northern Yi while so few are in Yi.

Unification of China

Wei is replaced by Jin. Yi is now under Jin's control. Wu is now all alone and at war with Shi Yi. Gongsun Yuan is gone and the Wuwan are free, they aren't at war with anyone but easily can be. All of the Barbarians are back and at war with anyone without the Hermit belief [Shi Yi]. This scenario may not be necessary, but it seems like a good conclusion and foreshadows Jin's eventual fall with it's war with every other faction. A time limit should be included if you play Jin, 150 turns or else it's game over.

Warlord Mechanic

No, not the warlord expansion.

Warlords, as in strategists. There seems to be a need for something like this. Warlords could be great people. No "rapid discovery of a tech". There could be several warlords.

Xun Yu
Xun You
Tian Feng
Ju Shou
Shen Pei
Feng Ji
Tian Yu
Gongsun Gong
Zhuge Liang
Pang Tong
Kuai Yue
Kuai Liang
Zhou Yu
Zhang Hong
Zhang Zhao
Lu Su
Fa Zheng
Zhang Song
Yan Pu
you get the idea

Warlords can be able to join with units to provide defensive, offensive, or evasive tactics. Such as 'when [unit] attacks warlord's unit it loses all offensive bonuses' No hill, promotion, upgrade, etc. bonuses. While the defense still has them. But most likely something so powerful will be restricted to the best of warlords. More like something simple as 'withdrawal chance increase by 30%' or 75%+ city defense against cavalry units. But that's not all, warlords can also be able to enter the capital and join as an adviser. Advisers can add something along the lines of 'no negative diplomatic hits for relations with other factions'. 'you declared war on our friend, you have traded with our worst enemies' however that does not include 'you declared war on us'. It's not limited to the diplomatic mantle, it could also add traits such as 'farms produce one extra food' or 'barracks add extra experience' ranging from buildings to developments.

Tactics and Traps

Now this is probably unlikely and highly difficult. But it's a suggestion none the less. Fire traps, in a plot you build a development, however decreasing it's production by one of each you could have it so that if that plot is plundered then all enemy units in that plot and the plots next to it are damaged by at least 50% and may result in a unit being destroyed or a hero dying. If animation or a slightly reddened tile could be used to make use of the 'fire' then that would work. If not it could simply be called trap.

Disguising units, as in a Elite unit could be represented by a lesser unit, maybe even a worker or a settler. Something helpless could be attacked and a surprise could be held and the unit loses some of it's advantages. Or perhaps being damaged somewhat.

Confusing units, as in using an ability for a certain unit, or a unit with a warlord that it can not move for two turns and loses all it's advantages. That one would be difficult to do, even more so than the rest.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Wow, I don't know if they can include all your suggestions, but even some would be good...like a Dong Zhuo scenario with Liu Yu up north rather than Gongsun Zan, and He Jin. I'm sure someone is working on a 3 Kingdoms scenario...

If I remember right, He Jin (a different one?) is hirable as a general.

I was just about to say the same thing about barbs not being able to attack Meng Huo or Yan Baihu, since they were, ahem, barbarians to start with. I also wonder why the Xiongnu were missing, probably because they weren't as much of a threat as they used to be in the Western Han Dynasty.

Actually, Yuan Shang fled to Gongsun Kang (Du's son) and got promptly sent back with his head in a box. I wonder why Gongsun Kang, Gong and Yuan aren't in the scenario. A scenario where Cao Cao is up north with a few select troops and Yuan Shang is still in command would be great, culminating in the battle of the White Wolf Mountain; while down south Liu Bei could coax Liu Biao to attack Xu Chang (which he didn't do, regrettably for him).

I think stmartin is already working on the strategist/politician units which will hopefully come with the next edition.

I had previously suggested maybe setting traps (esp. in the easily defended passes of Yizhou) on workable plots would be good, but nothing has happened so far.

 

[Kenjister]

Lots of good ideas! If there were to have the barbarian civs added, a major diplomatic overhaul would be needed so they won't get bogged down in excessive diplomacy.

It might be interesting however to add the mercenary mechanic found in RFC, and give a high gold cost reduction to the force that has the most of the ethnic unit. That way, you could have Ma Teng and Han Sui start with a large amount of Qiang units, giving them a large price reduction in order to hire more. There could also be further price reductions to factions that had historical ties. Factions that start with no ethnic units would be better off ignoring the high gold cost to hiring these units until the game enters the late stage and gold is abundant.

Another idea would be to use the city perk system already in place, and add a few more ethnic groups. Cities with the ethnic group in them would be able to "hire" troops of that group using a system much like in FfH. (ei. click little button on unit action bar, subtracts gold from treasury). Factions with historical ties would get discounts, and perhaps a change to just have these units spawn in thier territory for free.
This idea also could be useful for implementing rebellions by ethnic groups, by using events that trigger when the required ethnic group is present along with a certain number of unhappy faces, or simply just when the group is present. Barbarians with the UU would spawn and wreak havoc, costing up to several cities. As a warning, perhaps a pre-req event could be added that gives a popup saying that ethnic resistance is brewing.

The early factions sound great, and would definitely be necessary in order for a Yellow Turban rebellion scenario. It would be cool to see Jin too, perhaps they could spawn at a certain date from Cao Wei land? Or perhaps a later Cao emperor could be added, and after Cao Pi dies, there would be a gradual chance that Sima Yi spawns a seperate faction (though not exactly historical, it would model the infighting that broke out, weakening Wei until Jin was actually established.)

 

[scholar123]

Actually, Yuan Shang fled to Gongsun Kang (Du's son) and got promptly sent back with his head in a box. I wonder why Gongsun Kang, Gong and Yuan aren't in the scenario. A scenario where Cao Cao is up north with a few select troops and Yuan Shang is still in command would be great, culminating in the battle of the White Wolf Mountain; while down south Liu Bei could coax Liu Biao to attack Xu Chang (which he didn't do, regrettably for him).

Kang isn't a leader and Yuan isn't even an infant at the time. That just leaves Gongsun Du. Most of these scenarios are only loosely based on actual historical accuracy. Gongsun Gong isn't anywhere in the game [that i've seen] and it makes me kind of sad. Basically the Yuans are still slightly in power because it represents the threat that Cao Cao originally faced, a united Yuan and Gongsun resistance which even Guo Jia feared could cause Cao Cao a lot of trouble. Yuan Tan is included because... well... he doesn't appear to do anything and is a useless add. At least this way he has a purpose as one of the two leaders of the Yuan Clan, it also shows the civil war between the two. The scenarios are more of allegories towards the past rather than the actual past.

Also thanks for the kind words, I really think that a large portion of this would be quite easy to do, such as adding factions and scenarios because the cities are fixed and there isn't all that much tweaking except for the first scenario, Yellow Turban Rebellion. But by easy I mean it could take months, but it shouldn't be difficult to accomplish it, if you were to say put it on February Second.

 

[stmartin]

Thanks for the advice.

xxhe is not very active recently, we all do, so the faction and scenario idea will not come true, unless he comes back to action, or we find a new guy who can make scenario. Those minor factions you mentioned should be better off like Han Sui or Zhang Xian, unplayable, and use an existing faction as base.

Barbarians and strategists are part of the plan we got.

If you got ideas about how to improve existing content, please let me know.

 

[scholar123]

I'll be sure to tell you when I do. Though it's a bit of a shame that no new scenarios will be added.

 

[Kenjister]

Hey, since xxhe isn't making scenarios right now and the updates seem to have cooled down, now would probably be the perfect time for some fan-made scenarios to start being made! I might start making a Yellow Turban Rebellion one myself, since I always felt that the mod needed the event that started the entire period.

 

[stmartin]

Hey Kenjister, thanks for the intentioin, however, I know making scenario is really hard, so take it easy, you don't have to finish it. That said, if you do finish it, I hope it's really good enough so that I can make it official

 

[admtanaka]

Just a random thought:

Playing the scenario maps frequently leaves me with -20 "you declared war on our friend" diplomacy with some leaders (Yang Feng is particularly sensitive, which is strange, because I wouldn't expect a Yellow Turban to care one way or the other). Maybe this needs to be capped?

 

[scholar123]

Yang Feng isn't a turban...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But I thought he joined a faction of the ex-Turbans called White Wave Bandits...that's why he's treated like a bandit.

 

[scholar123]

Not exactly. Yang Feng was originally under Dong Zhou and Li Jue. He left them and became a leader of a group of soldiers. They are called rebels or bandits only in the same way that Cao Cao or Yuan Shao are rebels and bandits. Depending on sources, Yang Feng guarded the Emperor along with three others. They all fought each other on who's in charge and in the ended up moving East along with the white waves. But then they were attacked, destroyed, etc. Yang Feng then went to serve Yuan Shu, he fought in a major war against Lu Bu, he betrayed Yuan Shu and joined Lu Bu.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

If work is still being done on this mod, I highly suggest looking at the unit "Mentat" in the Dune Wars mod. It's a national unit that can be built after a certain tech, that allows 5 different bonuses to the city that contains that unit (which you choose when you finish building it): more hammers, gold, military unit XP, espionage, and happiness/health. Maybe the strategist units can be based on this. Mentats are national units, i.e. only 3 can be built, but I'm sure we can change this depending on the faction (more for the 3 Kingdoms than others).

 

[stmartin]

@AP

Someday we will be back working again, I believe. Just don't know when. For me, it's hard to work on HoTK for only a tiny faction of my time, I need a big trunk of time to do that, to work continuously. And I don't have the luxury to spare that much time right now. Another thing is what we have in mind all sounds a bit cliche, uninspired, too similar to all the other turn-based strategy games out there. If these games are already out there, why would we make them again? I know these formulas and traditions are tested, players love or loved them, including me, but for the sake of the worker, let's innovate and try something entirely different.

So meanwhile just play some other games and mods, recently I played metal gear solid 4 and dragon age, both very good game, highly recommend them