SP6 - Deity Training

[GenMarshall]

@Sirp - Thanks,

Luckly I will be able to post Discussions in this Thread (Though iit will be under in the Limited Catigory since, as a Tourney Staff, Respect the No Spoiler code) .

 

[hotrod0823]

@Sirp: If I read the request of players to have a 1.14 game available I think that the European players were not looking to move this back to 1.14 but simply generate a new start using 1.14 and posting it so that another "team" could start in another thread and this "team" would use the save start but with the 1.21 patch then at least both groups would start on equal footing.

Hotrod

 

[ProPain]

Originally posted by CivGeneral


*Hmm, I have heard that you can Mine a Cattle in Despot, I have never heard that Irrigating a Cattle is an Exception.

I have picked up some things when Training 1 on 1 with Dave, Regarding Tile improvements in a Despot Gov:
Mine Grassland
Irrigate Plains
Irrigate Deserts (If you have to)
Wheat can be irrigated

If there are any Exceptions to the Despot Tile Rules, I am more than Happy to pick up the trick.

Those despot tile rules are correct with the exception of grass+cattle. Normal/shielded grassland will lose it's extra 1 food when you irrigate it because you lose your 3rd food in despot. Grassland with cattle already lost it's 3rd food, grass=2 food, cattle+2, in despot you lose your 3rd food so cattle+grass leaves you with 3 food. Irrigate it and you'll have 4 food. Almost always a good idea.

 

[GenMarshall]

@Propain - Thanks for the indepth info , All the reason to get out of Despot ASAP

@hotrod0823 - I remember being in a SG that was like that.

 

[Ridgelake]

Originally posted by hotrod0823
@Sirp: If I read the request of players to have a 1.14 game available I think that the European players were not looking to move this back to 1.14 but simply generate a new start using 1.14 and posting it so that another "team" could start in another thread and this "team" would use the save start but with the 1.21 patch then at least both groups would start on equal footing.

Hotrod

That was my thought exactly, Hotrod. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by CivGeneral


I have picked up some things when Training 1 on 1 with Dave, Regarding Tile improvements in a Despot Gov:
Mine Grassland
Irrigate Plains
Irrigate Deserts (If you have to)
Wheat can be irrigated

If there are any Exceptions to the Despot Tile Rules, I am more than Happy to pick up the trick.

There are several things missing:

1) ABOVE ALL NO FIXED SET OF RULES!
LK39 had a city with multiple irrigated cattle and mined almost every plain square in despotism. This city had +8 food under despot and cranked enough shields to get us a wonder. Once we got to republic it went to size 12 and got us Sun Tzu. Rule #1 - evaluate each city.
Sometimes you need to irrigate grassland to get water between two points. If you follow your rule literally you may fail to get some cities to growth.

2) Do not blindly mine grassland. If you are close to another government you want some irrigation to switch to for growth.

3) Irrigate wines. This is a missed bonus food by many players. Wines = +1 food, irrigation = +1 food. Irrigated wines under despotism = 3 food.

4) Chop forest and irrigate GAME. This is a +4 food square even in despotism.

5) 90% of the time wheat should be irrigated.

6) 90% of the time cattle should be irrigated.

7) Above all - evaluate each cities need. Innovative tile working is a big plus to survive at deity.

 

[Matt_G]

Originally posted by LKendter
Irrigate wines. This is a missed bonus food by many players. Wines = +1 food, irrigation = +1 food. Irrigated wines under despotism = 3 food.

As long as those wines are on grass...yes. If they are on a plains tile however, you should mine it unless you are close to getting out of Despotism.
Just wanted to clarify that Lee, for CivG.

 

[Sirp]

@hotrod & ridgelake: Yes I was aware of that as a possibility, however I thought I addressed that adequately in my post. At any rate, I am not willing to restart the game based on people wanting to shadow, especially since it will make the game not 'purely' played on patch 1.21f. Further, like Sirian's policy on the Epics, I'm not entirely happy with a game being shadowed on a different patch level.

@CivGeneral et al: Basically you can't just blindly follow a set of rules, you have to understand the fundamentals of how things work. LKendter's advice is good, follow it. However, I'm not going to explain any of these topics, or similiar topics, in detail in this thread unless the game players ask for an explanation. This is because I think that the players of the game, and most readers already well understand these topics, as would most people who are ready to attempt playing on Deity.

-Sirp.

 

[GenMarshall]

@Sirp - Thanks,

BTW I am getting some insparation from the games in your website .
And what does "et al" mean?

 

[jack merchant]

lurker's comment: et al = and others, from the Latin et alii , IIRC

 

[Stormrider]

For countless years, the wandering tibe of the Americans searched for a land to call their own. This is their story.

1) 4000 BC The wandering Americans are not quite done wandering. The Tribe moves NE - Wheat will be in our expanded city radius (nice). The worker moves NW to the cow. The scout moves SW/W

2) 3950 BC Washington founded -> Scout. Hut outside of expanded radius (next scout will get it) Max science (100%): Alphabet . Worker irrigate. Scout finds plains and another river to the SW

3) 3900 BC Scout finds what appears to be a sizeable lake to the SW (2 food, so water is fresh)

4) 3850 BC Scout scouts, Worker road

5) 3800 BC Scout finds ivory to the south (9-10 squares SW from Washington)

6) 3750 BC Scout finds hut for next turn

7) 3700 BC Wash builds Scout -> warrior (MP). 2nd scout pops empty hut by Wash, Worker mines BG, 1st scout pops empty hut (that is way uncool)

8) 3650 BC Give Wash scientist to avoid rioting

9) 3600 BC Scouts scout. Lots of good land, no contacts yet

10) 3550 BC South scout finds lots of lakes (3 of them, 1 bigger than 1 square next to river) North scout finds hut

11) 3500 BC Hut deserted (WTF!!!)

12) 3450 BC Wash Warrior -> Granery. Scientist put to work. Wash expanded. Silk outside of borders. Wheat is 2 squares from river. As it will take a while to irrigate over there, I will mine another BG as we could use some shields and the irrigated cow gives us extra food.

13) 3400 BC S Scout sees another hut. If it is empty, I will freak out. Worker mines BG

14) 3350 BC Ofcourse it is deserted. Is this a Civ record. 4 empty huts in a row?

15) 3300 BC Wash grew, so I add a scientist. exploring...

Summary.

* I will not be going to Las Vegas anytime soon with my hut luck.
* Met no one
* Lots of good land with lakes, rivers, game, ivory. Although some jungle immediately North of Washington. We are on the equator and have explored as far south as the coastal tundra. Good spread of terrain will give good chances for resources (desert, jungle, mountains, hills, etc..) LOTS more to explore
* 10 turns to Granery
* 21 turns to Alphabet.
* 2 Scouts, 1 worker, and one warrior on MP

May your goody huts be better than mine,

Stormrider

Game

 

[Renata]

LOL Stormrider my hut luck must be catching. Four starts now (including this) at emperor and above (3 of them with expansionist civs) and yet to get a single tech from a hut. The (presumed) early contacts we will get will be valuable in and of themselves, though.

Renata

 

[ToddMarshall]

Annother lux resourse bonus a lot of people miss is furs = +1 shields. On grasslands, chop that forest and you have yourself a BG. On tundra, you almost never want to chop them because after despotisim that square makes 3 shields.

 

[Sirp]

uh...welcome to Deity here guys. It's a harsh land, and the people aren't friendly. Don't expect much nice from huts. Indeed, the early contacts and map information is what you get from being expansionist on Deity. If you get something from huts, then that is a nice bonus.

I'm going to comment more later, but....you set a scientist? You should NEVER set a specialist this early in the game. Never. Take luxuries up to cover it. It's always worth it this early on, as we desperately want food and shields, while cash/beakers don't mean that much at this stage.

I'm not sure if I'd have gone for one or two built scouts. If you build two scouts you do have to pay maintenance, but it can often be worth it. Good job with not irrigating the wheat assuming it's on grassland, but not exactly for the reason you stated: irrigated cattle + unimproved wheat gives us a surplus of 5 food per turn. Irrigating the wheat would give us a 6 food surplus. This won't bring out growth time below 4 turns pre-granary and 2 turns post-granary, so it's not a high priority. It would still possibly be worth irrigating the wheat at some stage, since it'd allow us to work on the wheat tile sometimes, and switch to a high-shield tile other times, micromanaging for the best growth and shields. Still, I'll have to look at it to see; we might just end up mining the wheat. If the wheat is on plains though, it's a different story: irrigating it is necessary to boost the city up to a 5 food surplus and should be done as a priority. If it's on floodplains then it should also be irrigated as a priority
because it would get the city up to a +7 food surplus, and thus be able to grow every 3 turns pre-granary. If that were the case, we could even consider *not* building a granary immediately, since the granary is less beneficial - only increases growth by 50%, not 100%. Instead we could churn out a couple of settlers and then go for the granary. Anyhow, I'll comment more when I've seen the game.

Oh and the barbarian setting is low, but we're still going to have to be on the lookout for them here guys. On Deity, if you have an isolated start (and 15 turns in with an expansionist civ not making contact is an 'isolated start'), and you have the barbarian setting to anything other than 'no barbarians', you'll have trouble with them. Remember, horseback riding is going to be discovered in no time at all. We need Bronze Working and/or Warrior Code asap. (and oh yes, my theory with these new PTW barbs is that you can't play defensively against them, you have to attack. Archers are a must against them imo).

The game is afoot!

-Sirp.

 

[Sirp]

Whoa, I was just looking at a shadow of Stormrider's turn that was sent to me by hotrod. He got a settler, 25 gold, and warrior code from huts. What a difference that'd make!

Hopefully our hut-luck will change soon though!

-Sirp.

 

[GenMarshall]

@Sirp - Check your E-mail for my shadow save I just sent it to you .

 

[Borealis]

Never mind- I'm asking for a clarification on this TDG- do you want all of us in the game to shadow, too, or just comment?

 

[Sirp]

Borealis: shadows are optional for people not playing the game. Players of the game should NOT shadow at this stage, since it could reveal spoiler information. You may shadow later if you want, once we've traded world maps with the other civilizations, since maps are the major part of spoilers. Shadowing is always entirely optional though, since in my observation of TDGs that strongly encouraged shadowing was that players got burnt out under the workload.

Comments/questions/strategy discussions are always welcome, especially from the game players.

Hope that clarifies. Sorry if this thread has seemed a little confusing/chaotic so far.

-Sirp.

 

[Sirp]

Originally posted by Stormrider
For countless years, the wandering tibe of the Americans searched for a land to call their own. This is their story.

1) 4000 BC The wandering Americans are not quite done wandering. The Tribe moves NE - Wheat will be in our expanded city radius (nice). The worker moves NW to the cow. The scout moves SW/W

It may have been worth moving the scout to the coast first, but not a bad move. One thing I have learnt is to almost always check out coast if you see it at the start. I learnt that way back in Epic 4 (see my homepage). By checking out the coast, Sirian (and others) got in range of wheat, while people like me didn't.

8) 3650 BC Give Wash scientist to avoid rioting

I have already mentioned it, but this move is pure

I don't like to berate the point over and over, but it is important to understand that this move is always bad. You could make a happy citizen and stop the rioting by increasing luxuries enough to put 1 gold into luxuries. Just 1 gold per turn. The scientist gives you a beaker a turn. So, you're getting one beaker and one gold, while in this case, the citizen working on the wheat could be getting 3 food a turn. This early in the game, one food FAR outweighs one gold or one beaker in value. Doing what you did here, if magnified, would equate to trading Alphabet for three settlers.

11) 3500 BC Hut deserted (WTF!!!)

A little unlucky, but not uncommon on Deity.

12) 3450 BC Wash Warrior -> Granery. Scientist put to work. Wash expanded. Silk outside of borders. Wheat is 2 squares from river. As it will take a while to irrigate over there, I will mine another BG as we could use some shields and the irrigated cow gives us extra food.

Good work here.

13) 3400 BC S Scout sees another hut. If it is empty, I will freak out. Worker mines BG

14) 3350 BC Ofcourse it is deserted. Is this a Civ record. 4 empty huts in a row?

Don't worry about the huts too much, if we can get contacts it'll be good.

15) 3300 BC Wash grew, so I add a scientist. exploring...

umm...see above

Unlucky with the huts, and some mistakes with city management. But it's ok, Deity isn't that unforgiving (well ok, it would be if this was a tightly-packed game), as long as we fix things up, we'll be right.

-Sirp.

 

[Sirp]

To those who played shadows of the last turn: Sorry for not having gotten back to you yet. I will, but I don't have time right at the moment.

3300BC (IT): Fire the scientist immediately, and send her out to work. All else is fine.
3250BC (1): blah.

3200BC (2): scout pops hut, gets 25 gold.

3150BC (3): We sight dark green borders in the west. Our scout in the north-west meets a barbarian encampment.

3100BC (4): We meet Japan. They have The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial, and Bronze Working (which they didn't start with). Would have been good to get The Wheel off them if possible, since they're the only ones who start with it, and since it'd show us horses, but not surprisingly they don't want to trade that with us. We do get Bronze Working in a straight trade for Masonry though. With barbs around, BW will be useful.

Washington grew this turn, so lux -> 20%. I'm going over to develop the wheat now.

I'm really hoping we get this granary done in Washington before barbs show up. Otherwise things could get....interesting.

3050BC (5): We find a deserted Saxon village.

3000BC (6): Japan has picked up warrior code somehow.

2950BC (7): Just two turns until the granary is completed now.

2900BC (8): Arghhh! Our scout in the north-west was on a mountain just two tiles away from a goodie hut. IBT some blue spearman shows up and pops the goodie hut, and of course out come barbarians. The barbarians are nice enough to kill our scout, and to add salt to the wound, we don't even get contact with whoever the blue spearman was!

Washington MMed to finish its granary next turn, and grow the turn after.

2850BC (9): Washington builds its granary. It is set to build a spearman which will take 3 turns.

2800BC (10): I've got a mine on the wheat. Roading it now. Washington will grow every 2 turns from here on. Settler factory online!

2750BC (11): The scout is going north to try to find those blue guys.

2710BC (12): Spearman ready. Start building a settler.

2670BC (13): nada.

2630BC (14): We run into the Babylonians (red). They have Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code, we have nothing they don't have.

2590BC (15): blah.

ok guys, this start hasn't gone quite as well as I planned, so I'm going to take another 5 turns to try to help us along a little.

I hate to do things like this, but I might have to do it in the future too. I think one or two concessions are going to have to be made to the difficultly level we're playing.

2550BC (16): Although our capital is on great land, and there is great land in the vicinity, the land in the ring around our capital is actually a little mediocre. I send the settler north-west.

Washington can just squeeze out a settler every 4 turns, and that's it. It doesn't really have time to build anything else. Other production will have to be picked up by other cities.

If we can pick up Alphabet here, we'll be in great shape tech-wise.

2510BC (17): blah

2470BC (18): Settler moves into position for our second city.

2430BC (19): New York founded. It is set to build a scout. We'll probably want at least 2 more of these. Maybe another warrior after the first one though.

2390BC (20): Ok we have Alphabet! What can we get for it? We send it to Japan in exchange for The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial, and 40 gold. We then do a straight trade of Alphabet to Babylon for Warrior Code. They were near to getting it, because they wouldn't offer me much for it in the first place.

We are now behind by Polytheism to Babylon and Japan.

We have a horsey right near us. Excellent.

I send the settler south, guarded by the warrior from Washington. Washington is now unguarded and New York will have to make it some defenses as soon as the scout is finished (probably just a warrior; a spear is too expensive). Actually build several warriors in NY after the scout. We want two in Washington for defense and MP.

After the next settler, we may want to build a worker or two in Washington.

The settler is headed south. There is desert south and also a river. I suspect there may be floodplains. If so, settle there.

We are researching Mathematics, and although it's due in 40 turns as at the moment, just a moment ago, before the settler was built, it was due in less than 40 turns. Keep going at max science. The AI tends to neglect math, so hopefully we can get it first.

Do NOT use any specialists in Washington under any circumstances, always use the luxury slider. Let's keep churning those settlers out and get as many cities up as we can! If possible, we want to settle that entire lake to the south-west before the Japanese get there.

Good luck Matt_g!

-Sirp.

The Game

Roster
---

Stormrider
Sirp
Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Renata
Borealis

10 turns from now on.

EDIT: Btw, if you've got time, would you mind doing everyone a favor and posting a screenshot Matt_g? I forgot to and now I don't have time