Specialist Economy series

[CivilizedTiger]

Mutineer has links to three of their succession games played without cottages, the links are posted on the first page.

The games are very interesting, that's why I'm excited about trying these, I just am unsure about how well I'll fare.

 

[SillyGoat]

Quoted for truth. As DaveMcW says it, don't be an economist!

Use what works and don't go into tunnel vision.

I've always preferred the MABOABABWYC* economy to anything rigidly pigeonholed.

@CivilizedTiger: How about a save we can play?


*Make A Beaker Or a Buck Any Way You Bloody Way You Can

 

[CivilizedTiger]

Hm... I'm not yet certain about some aspects and I'm a bit busy until tomorrow, maybe until Monday including.

I think I'll post something Friday, I hope no one gets bored due to the delay. The NC, MS and IU games are taking place in this period, though, so there's something to do for those getting bored.

~~~

About the next details:
I'd like some fractal maps which offer at least two continents, or some hemisphere maps which are less predictable, or some Big and Small which have more continents. What would the others want as maps?

How about these maps: Continents and islands I've tried one for the MS game and it seems we might want to add one or two extra AI if we go that way. I'd like more AI, but would it change the game too much?

Second... which leader should we go for first? I'd like the heavy weight to be left for greater difficulty levels, so phi and ind won't be seen much early on in the series. Then again, it's also true that Civ 5 gets out in a few months, so people might lose interest then and we might have fewer games. If this second thing happens, we'd be better served trying some leaders good for SE from the get-go. What does everyone think about this?

And difficulty?
I'd like to start out either in monarch or in prince, although if enough people are interested and offer input, monarch start might be feasible. (I'll make WB saves for noble, monarch, imm and deity, so whatever you answer to this won't change this aspect)

 

[obsolete]

Using WB saves for any sort of benchmarking thread is a paradox in itself. All it ever does is create silly threads with silly rules changes and even starting techs from one poster to another. And in the end there really is no comparison. You just get a bunch of mixed-up games and no real conclusion to ever draw from it.

Your benchmark has already lost before it started since you can't even get a STANDARD start to start from.

 

[Woobi]

I would definitely participate as well. While I do agree it is silly to go into a game with a planned economy, it is always nice practice to do so. I always have trouble by the time it gets to the industrial era with my SE games.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

To be honest, I didn't think about making this into a benchmark, only into a learning and hopefully fun series. I don't want to decide which strategy is better here, so benchmarking isn't important. Fun, however, is, and if a monarch player is forced to play this in immortal, there's no fun.

As far as I am concerned, though I'm no master, I've at least understood how to cottage my lands and specialize my cities, and that allows me to win easily with Willem, one of my two favourite leaders. I could improve in CE as well, but I at least have some basics, which I can't say for other strategies, unfortunately. The same strategy is less feasible with Pericles, my other favourite leader. But there are strategies which the latter is good with. And this series would be intended for those strategies.

 

[Myrphi]

Looks like a neat series to follow once it gets going!

I was having massive issues with utilizing specialists in my games, like seeing a GP pop out and thinking, "Where the heck did THAT come from?". I've been doing lots of reading here, to fix that deficiency, and getting quite frustrated in my attempts to get an "SE" game rolling.

To fix that frustration I installed the CivGold 3.0 mod for warlords (no BtS ) to simulate having more leaders. Playing random leader I found a trait set that finally clicked for me (PHI/CRE) and smashed me in the face with a "How could you be so blind?" sign.

The SE finally worked for me in a big way. I really am my own worst enemy. I can now say ... I am a chronic over-builder. Minimal infrastructure is sooo key to get the warmongering rolling. By end of game, with no native-built cottages, beakers were rolling in at about 3k per turn at 0% slider (gold at about 1k). [huge pan, normal]

So now, I have a clue as to how it works, which means I have a long way to go, lol. I'll be looking forward to tweaking my play by observing y'alls s'more.

 

[bhavv]

I just got this isolated start map for Pericles using Shuffle and made a nice Great Merchant Farm:





Its using the HoF mod with locked modified assets and no barbarians on Monarch difficulty if anyone wants to try it.

Yup, I have a single warrior defending my uber city in 1510 AD lol.

Im running a single priest to try and get a GP for the Taoism shrine, but being flooded with Merchants isnt helping . I'll need to build the pagoda.

GMs are the best for a GP farm, the +1 lets you work less tiles and have more merchants, and the boost is an immense help to the economy .

I also built the Parthenon in another city because I didnt want to polute my GM and GS points (Parthenon city also founded Taoism [lucky] and will get a shrine, wall street and sushi co).

I'm going to replace all the farms with workshops soon because I want to get Statue of Lib / Eifell Tower and UN in there as well for more merchant points.


Workshopped GM farm:



I dont need food tiles

 

[Fleme]

In what world are you building the OU in a city where you get a free 54 gold per turn and already have a national wonder? I mean, there's just so many things wrong with that picture. Just... Please, save it for Wall Street.

 

[bhavv]

Because I'm not very good at GP games .

I lost the Statue of Liberty so I decided to retry and I'll save it for wall street this time. I cranked out lots more workers and chopped like mad this time and also got the Temple of Artemis added in:



I chopped the surrounding forests first, there were lots, I'll save the inner ones for Statue of Lib this time.

 

[deathturnip]

Ack! Your previous attempt, you had riverside workshops. What is wrong with this, you ask? Should be watermills! Same hammers, more food unless I am mistaken.

 

[DampRain]

Same hammers, more food unless I am mistaken.

You are.

 

[bhavv]

Ack! Your previous attempt, you had riverside workshops. What is wrong with this, you ask? Should be watermills! Same hammers, more food unless I am mistaken.

No, Workshops have more hammers as I'm running Caste.

This is why I built Workshops, and have been relying on Bureaucracy and Caste System for the whole game (the UN backfired and made me a criminal, so I had to run Scientists in all my cities with a high culture rate):



The Leveed Plains watermill makes the same amount of as a non riverside workshop, which is pretty pants for non Fin leaders.

I also messed up my Oxford City, I cottaged it as I usually always play as Financial leaders with cottage spam, I should have actually farmed every tile and ran loads of Scientists (I'll do that now to try it, even though the games nearly finished)



You need everywhere outside the capital farmed, and if you want to wonder spam with a Philo leader, then the capital needs workshops and Bureaucracy.

I usually play as Hannibal or Willem with cottage economies and coastal cities.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

I am sorry if people are becoming impatient/disappointed with this, but I'd like to run just a few more things by you.

1. I'd like our first leader not to have the top SE traits, but to have complementary traits nonetheless, so I would like to try Brennus as our first leader, Spiritual for somewhat easier diplo and for easy transition to war civics, and charismatic which allows us to use more specialists once we get caste (so CoL gets higher priority) and which helps us in wars throughout the game.

2. I'd like to use the Continents and islands map script, which is similar to Big and Small, but the islands can be bigger than islands. The settings I'd like would be with both islands and continents to be the size of Snaky continents, standard size, medium water level, 8 AI (2 extra). Unfortunately I can't offer screenshots yet, as my Internet connection from home dropped. I think such a map would look interesting, at least by my standards, so that's why I'd like this choice.

3. Would anyone be willing to test and pick from 3-5 WB maps one for our first game, so that we aren't isolated (low chance with this script, though), that AIs aren't isolated (don't want to make it too easy)(again, low chance with this script) and if possible, so that at least some AI are impossible to meet until optics? (low chance for this, though, with this script - also, low priority)

4. I've thought about obsolete's post a bit more, and I kind of agree with him now. If we cooperate, it's easier for the lower level players to follow through at higher difficulties, so this shouldn't be a problem, and if we can compare progress, we might learn a bit more. So I'll offer only one WB save for each game. First will be with monarch (I'm only this level now ) epic, no huts, no events. I play with choose religions, but it's irrelevant for comparisons.

Thanks!
I hope we start this thing this Friday

 

[bhavv]

Ack! Your previous attempt, you had riverside workshops. What is wrong with this, you ask? Should be watermills! Same hammers, more food unless I am mistaken.

No, Workshops have more hammers as I'm running Caste.

This is why I built Workshops, and have been relying on Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, Free Market + Sushi Co (after Mercantalism was no longer profitable enough), and Pacifism for most of the game (the UN backfired and made me a criminal, so I had to run Scientists in all my cities with a high culture rate):



The Leveed Plains watermill makes the same amount of as a non riverside workshop, which is pretty pants for non Fin leaders.

I also messed up my Oxford City, I cottaged it as I usually always play as Financial leaders with cottage spam, I should have actually farmed every tile and ran loads of Scientists (I'll do that now to try it, even though the games nearly finished)



You need everywhere outside the capital farmed, and if you want to wonder spam with a Philo leader, then the capital needs workshops and Bureaucracy.

I usually play as Hannibal or Willem with cottage economies and coastal cities.

 

[bhavv]

Well, I got beaten by Hauyna Caupa who won a culture win the turn before I were readly to launch my spaceship lol.

I started another game as Peter this time, on a Fractal map and found this start:



I know your not looking for a top SE leader, I'm just playing for fun and anyone can try these games if they want before you start the series.

Lets see if I can make another GM farm and actually win this time.

Its a shared island with Ramesses to the East who also has Stone, and Hauyna Caupac to the North who is much further away. Also I have a marble nearby again, but connecting resources will be harder as I'm not Creative.

 

[vranasm]

@CT I thought you wanted for start to choose lower level, something like even Noble.

all other points I agree with.

 

[bhavv]

Brennus could work, and I agree that CHA would come in useful, however I dont really see SPI being much use because you will pretty much always want to be in Caste System, Pacifism, and later on Representation, regardless of whether the AI like it or not.

Id recommend trying Suryavarman, as CRE is useful for getting Libraries up faster, and EXP plus the Baray allow for much easier SE management, or either Mehmed / Pacal for EXP plus the +2 UBs.

The second two are similar to Pericles, but you dont get Philosophical.

That Continents and Islands map script is great! Those are the kind of maps I always want, and I rarely get from using Fractal. I'll see if I can try rolling some maps.

By the way, SE games suck on Monarch difficulty with lots of IND AI starting near Stone or Marble . I couldnt get any wonders built, nor support 4 early cities without Gold / Gems or Silver, so I gave up on the Perter one. Maybe we could have an easy Noble game with a non PHI or IND leader, but also with no IND AI leaders.

 

[Mutineer]

Well, that is a greate misconception. Food economy become stronger with difficulty level going up!

Personally I would advice to start with emperor, even if your normal play usually mach lover level.

Food economy demand mach more micromanagement and careful early research and build decision.

That would really help you.

 

[kossin]

Start with Montezuma or Gandhi