Speculation on enemy AI's. {Long}

Dairuka said:
This one tabby cat tried to play Immigrant Song on it, and it sounded like Hot Crossed Buns. :mad: Cats should not play Tubas because they butcher good Led Zeppelin songs.

Funny you should mention that. You may want to check this out...


Viking Kittens
 
Isabella is easily the most religious AI. Montezuma is hyperagressive and will usually get his ass handed to him by half the civs on the map. Ghandi is scary good if someone doesn't take him out early; I had one game where I got him to attack a weak civ late game, and he took most of their cities in a few turns. Not quite the pacifist, although on the other hand he's nearly impossible to talk into a war. Huayna Capac demands you stop trading, adopt his civic, etc ever other turn, and gets really mad when you don't. Fortunately he doesn't seem to actually attack you over it, but it's very hard to befriend him without losing the rest of the world's favor.
 
After the Caesar comments, here are some more comments on other leaders.

I must first specify i usually play on european/asian-european maps, so i have more or less always the same leaders. Difficulty Noble/Prince usually, on large or very large maps playing epic games.

I just add unusual comment, won't say again about techies from England, Gandhi power builder etc etc...

Frederick
As i often play Russia, he is a common neighbor to me, and quite strange AI.
First, he globally does not really care for religion (opposite to Isabella on this point). I have often turned him to my religion while he was fundator of another one, not even by asking him, just by sending missionaries everywhere. He builds few missionaries, but if you give him some, he will use them, even on his other neighbors if all of his cities are yet religious. Very useful point to know.
As far as you trade with him and share religion, he never agresses you. Even if you refuse military askings or trade with foes (as far as it stays reasonable).
Even if you attack him at one point, you can quite easily befriend with him again later, if after the fight he his in a weak position, he will not hesitate to ask for open borders very fast (10 turns after peace).
In another hand he builds very quickly and uses chop. So a neighbor you need to dominate or really befriend quickly, if not he is a very strong opponent, even if not agressive.

Isabella
In EVERY game she HATES me. Every. No exception (well, i never share religion with her since both of use got one each time and none of us is agreeing to switch).
One game she asked me to switch religion something like in 1000 BC, i refused, she declared war. She NEVER agreed to make peace until 18xx AD !!!! (she would only sign peace treaty if i accept to give her something, what i would never do since i am quite sure less than 30 turns after she will declare war again...).
Every time, she does not offer border sharing as far as you do not share the same religion. A damn fanatic !

Mongols - both
They are fan of asking for bride. And often they are technologically back, they are warmongers (but chaotic ones, not organized ones), so often make war with your ennemies. If you from times to times declare war for him to a far ennemy or agree his blackmails from time to time, he can quite easily befriend. And it's quite a nice thing to have such a crazy man on your side, since he will easily declare war on your ennemies if you ask him.
Since they are back in technology, it's often useful to give them some, so they can be more annoying to your ennemies :D Since they will probably not be a real challenger at the end, you can afford it.
 
kroym said:
Funny you should mention that. You may want to check this out...


Viking Kittens

Sweet Viking Jesus them kittens are Vikings! Notice the lack of a Tuba though? Kittens rule without Tubas.
 
A little defense on Tokugawa:
Started near him in my last game, he attacked me twice, possibly because I played Builder and my military was weak. I had the edge on Technology, though, and was able to kick him back out the first time, and finally conquer him the second time he tried something funny (like taking Stuttgart). He had had plenty of Knights and Samurai. Nice, but not good enough against my Grenadiers and later Infantry.

Lost the game, though, because the Aztec had gobbled up half the map, and I couldn't get my hands on Oil. If you can outproduce your enemy, Marines probably can stand up to Tanks, but if he's matching you 1-for-1, while his Gunships are burning down the farm, it's over.
 
I've been reading over this thread and have found all of the information very helpful, but one thing that I've been wondering is: How much does each AI's behavoir vary from difficulty level to difficulty level? The AI can only act on a pre-determined set of variables, but I'd imagine they change somewhat as the difficulty changes as well...

kroYM
 
The AI's themselves do not change regarding difficulty levels. They are equally aggressive or equally charged to discover new technologies on every level.

The differences between levels are how the balance is tipped.

Settler tips the balance heavily in the favor of the player, by giving the player larger cities from more health/happiness, more production, bonuses for research.

Deity tips the balance heavily in favor of the AI's, by giving them bonuses for faster production, faster research, two free settlers, two free workers, a bunch of extra archers for defense...

The reason the AI's may SEEM more aggressive on the harder levels, is because you're behind them. To them, you're weak and an easy target, there-by making the more opportunistic civilizations like Alexander or Caeser to be much more hostile with you.
 
baptiste said:
Frederick
As i often play Russia, he is a common neighbor to me, and quite strange AI.
First, he globally does not really care for religion (opposite to Isabella on this point). I have often turned him to my religion while he was fundator of another one, not even by asking him, just by sending missionaries everywhere. He builds few missionaries, but if you give him some, he will use them, even on his other neighbors if all of his cities are yet religious. Very useful point to know.
As far as you trade with him and share religion, he never agresses you. Even if you refuse military askings or trade with foes (as far as it stays reasonable).
Even if you attack him at one point, you can quite easily befriend with him again later, if after the fight he his in a weak position, he will not hesitate to ask for open borders very fast (10 turns after peace).
In another hand he builds very quickly and uses chop. So a neighbor you need to dominate or really befriend quickly, if not he is a very strong opponent, even if not agressive.

I would have agreed with this, but in my latest game he was on the continent next to mine, we shared a religion and I had +4 relationship. And yet he still launched a sneak attack. And there was me expecting attack from the opposite direction where Alexander, Catherine and Tokugawa all hate my guts... :eek:
 
It's best to do an investigation of the XML file... There should be someplace with facts about leaders instead of this compilation of iffy observations.
[edit]
e.g.
<Type>LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN</Type>
...
<iWonderConstructRand>10</iWonderConstructRand>
<iBaseAttitude>-1</iBaseAttitude>
<iBasePeaceWeight>0</iBasePeaceWeight>
<iPeaceWeightRand>3</iPeaceWeightRand>
<iWarmongerRespect>2</iWarmongerRespect>
...
<iWonderConstructRand>40</iWonderConstructRand>
<iBaseAttitude>1</iBaseAttitude>
<iBasePeaceWeight>9</iBasePeaceWeight>
<iPeaceWeightRand>3</iPeaceWeightRand>
<iWarmongerRespect>0</iWarmongerRespect>
So Genghis Kahn begins with a lower base attitude and seems to have less respect for peace. Much of the XML files for leaders is identical. All that needs to be done is a contrast of major differences for two leaders leading to IMHO a much better conclusion than:
Genghis Khan- insane like Monte but he has allies sometimes. Always has most units but they are obselete. If you befriend him, he's pretty trustworthy unlike Alex and Monte.
 
nilsmo said:
It's best to do an investigation of the XML file... There should be someplace with facts about leaders instead of this compilation of iffy observations.

Lankou is already going over the XML file. However even with the numbers and algorithms, he still requires peoples experiences in playing against certain AI's. Why? Because algorithms only control the AI on certain situations, and you can't understand everything simply by knowing the numbers.

The only way to truly know what an AI is like, is through experience playing against them. Over - and over - and over - and over... eventually patterns will be apparent to everyone.
 
(btw, I'm familliarizing myself with the forums so what I say may be a bit.. premature.)

Lankou hasn't posted once in this thread. Is Lankou working on his/her own?

OK, observations are very important in determining the chracteristics of civs. However, I guess (might be wrong) that you won't get very far with chat on individual games. First, clear differences in XML btwn civs need to outlined. Then, it needs to be seen how observations correspond to these numbers. They need to work together.
 
well, a lot of things are "explained" on the apolyton wiki, but i'm not that satisfied of it...

the weirdest thing i have to guess is how war ratios are calculated...

besides that, sometimes, "rand" factor can be interpreted in different manners: sometimes, a high factor means you get a lot of chances to get it (wonder construct rand, Louis get the highest, 50, Gandhi 10, i suppose that Gandhi doesn't build wonders that much), sometimes, it means you get less chances (war rand, Gandhi and Mansa Musa get the highest, 400)

from what i had interpreted (so it could be subject to other interpretations...):
I know i have to search for which kind of unit they build, and which king of terrai improvement they favored

Alex

likes warmongers rather than builders, quite nice for trading monopoly techs, he's a warmonger, but he prefers to go for limited wars, easy to convince to join a war, can sneak attack or declare war if you refused tribute, may raze some city and like to build units, he doesn't like people with little score, in the middle for caring about religion. hard on map, adopting civic and defensive pact. will refuse permantent alliance.
will focuse on military and growth techs.
He's a good warmongering guy.

Asoka

wonder builder, he's peacefull. he likes people with a better score, but may declare war if his demands are rejected. Religion is quite important for him. he is quite easy for trading except what implies another civ (declare war, stop trading). Will focus on religion and science.
Make him a top list builder AI

Bismarck

middle builder, he likes peace. he is hard on trading monopoly techs. he is a middle warmonger, but he favors limited wars. he really doesn't like to see his demands rejected. he doesn't care that much with religion, nor civics. He's a nice guy for trading apart from pact and alliance. Favors military
middle list AI, unless he backstab you

Catherine

Middle wonder builder, she prefer peace and trading, but she's quite a warmonger too, especially when she is not alone...traitress!!! She will not hesitate to backstab you and sneak you...she has some consideration for religion (not Isabella, but more than the leaders described above). She is wonderfull for trading tech, but map trading and alliance are not her cup of tea. She is quite good for getting her on your side in a war...she will focuse on science and culture
if you get her on your side, she is quite a good friend, but she can't be trust that much!!!

Cyrus

he's more a builder than a warmonger, he likes wonders...but he's still a middle warmonger. he builds a good number of units, so he is hard to conquer if he's not tech behind. he has some consideration for religion too. He is quite nice to trade with, but hard when another civ is implied (again declaration of war, stop trading). will focuse on military and growth
middle list AI: not a tech leader, but he's hard on military...

Elisabeth

A friendly builder that does not like wonders that much...
she really does not like war (but she is not gandhi...). Beware of her, cause she like to sneak attack and dogpile wars
middle care for religion and doesn't build unit that much...
she likes when your civics are common. nice for trading except OCI (other civ implication: stop trading and declaration of war) and pact and alliance. will focuse on gold and culture (wich make her a great powerhouse by the late game because of her traits)
a good AI if it's a peacefull game

Frederic

favors peace, but war is something that he may take into consideration...note that he may raze cities!!! classic AI for trading, religion is not that important...
he will focuse on production tech, and as he doesn't focus on wonder that much, he can't play his traits that good, but he will have tech lead on certain tech since he is the only one to focus on production with mao, Qin and roosevelt, so there are max 3 AI to focus on production)
middle down list AI, best if it's a peacefull game, but others AI will beat him

Gandhi

the peacefull builder!!! but he doesn't seems to focuse on wonders.... well, it's difficult to get him refusing to trade with you, and he really likes when you get his civic...On the other hand, he doesn't build that much of unit, so he will be easy to destroy!!!
focuse on culture
A top of the list AI in peacefull times...

Genghis

The second most aggressive AI!!! and he's harder to get peace with!!! he likes razing city, sneak you and doesn't like when you refuse to get his demands...on the other hand, he's quite a nice guy concerning trading. Favors military and science.
A top of the list AI concerning warmongering, but he may get tech behind...

next leaders next time...
 
Lankou has done an exceptional job trying to interperate the differences in XML files.

However, there are quirks that are not explained in the XML file.

Quirks like:

- Why Genghis Khan is the most likely to backstab you if you have +15 positive relations with him?

- Why Washington is usually forcively boxed in with only 3-4 cities?

- Why Cyrus likes to build crappy cities in the middle of no where?

- Why Tokugawa does horrifically bad in most if not all games; with the only exception being when he successfully wars against a neighbour?

These are questions that numbers alone can not explain, unless you yourself know every possible algorithm for every possible situation. This is why Speculation and Theories become important. Proof is not required in speculation, it's merely a common collective of minds coming together to share their experiences, to help other players to better understand the types of AI's they'll be fighting off against. Which is why I feel it is more important than an XML file in making a "vs AI" FAQ.
 
Dairuka said:
Lankou has done an exceptional job trying to interperate the differences in XML files.

However, there are quirks that are not explained in the XML file.

Quirks like:

- Why Genghis Khan is the most likely to backstab you if you have +15 positive relations with him?

- Why Washington is usually forcively boxed in with only 3-4 cities?

- Why Cyrus likes to build crappy cities in the middle of no where?

- Why Tokugawa does horrifically bad in most if not all games; with the only exception being when he successfully wars against a neighbour?

First, thank you for the compliment

then the quirks:

-Genghis is the one with the highest waging war caracteristic, even if you are the closest friend...
did you refused his demand (he's likely to declare war for that too), at 15+, were you friendly? if you were just pleased, another civ can ask mongol to declare war on you and genghix will accept...more than that, there are some factors that are not showed to people: base attitute is -1, he doesn't care for peace but respect warmonger...were you a builder this time?

-Washington and his 3-4 cities? well i can't explain...for now

-Cyrus is a "defender". he build a lot of unit even if he doesn't wage war...but most of them are defending unit. more than that, his favorites improvement are farm and windmill. windmill are not available so soon, and farm need a river to be valuable. so cyrus will have some trouble developping cities if there are no river.

-the tokugawa case. well, he's aggressive, but he's not that aggressive...especially if the ennemy is distant. he favors dogpile wars (being not alone). that means he need to contact many civ, get them close before declaring war. on trading, he's the hardest one to trade and he won't trade tech, no matter what. He is hard on trading strategic ressources (and between AI, you never exchange a strategic ressource versus another type), and accepting religious, civics conversion...so he's likely to get tech behind. which means he won't declare war easily, snowball effect, etc, etc. more than that he prefer to build defensive units, so he's an aggressive AI, that doesn't wage war and he's diplomatically alone. he's bound to fail. a solution could be let him trade techs, wage war easier on distant land (even gandhi is likely to wage war more often than him), give him a favorite improvement (cottages?), maybe give him another favorite civic (but i don't think that's the major flaw in toku AI)
Tokugawa AI reflects what Tokugawa could have been, but in civ, gameplay favors a) waging wars or fast peacefull developping. b) trading tech and ressources, two things that tokugawa isn't likely to...
 
Great information, L'Ankou! The XML file is matching the observations, too. Now this information needs to be organized to make it easier to spot mistakes and to add to the info.
 
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