Stupid nobels -- Nobel for lit given to Bob Dylan :)

The Nobel prizes are sort of a mockery of prizes these days, right? I mean, ever since Obama has won a Nobel peace prize I haven't been able to take these things very seriously.

Having said that, Bob Dylan has contributed a great deal to literature, even if his main outlet is music. I have no idea who else was in the running, but at first glance I respect this decision and it seems worthy.
 
They have always been, kinda sorta. But since they give away so much dosh people care more about them.
 
By your own completely arbitrary parameters I reckon?

Objectively, I'm afraid.

Anyway, I actually completely agree with your notion that One Love is a strange choice. I think the most powerful tracks lyrically are New York State of Mind

That isn't a rap song. Did you mean Empire State of Mind by Jay-Z? It's hard to describe it as lyrically "powerful," though.

and Life's a *****.

That's a bit better, but it clearly isn't the best. I highlighted the rhyme schemes to show why:

"Visualizing the realism of life and actuality
**** who's the baddest, a person's status depends on salary
And my mentality is money orientated
I'm destined to live the dream for all my peeps who never made it
Cause yeah, we were beginners in the hood as five percenters
But something must have got in us cause all of us turned to sinners
Now some are resting in peace and some are sitting in San Quentin
Others such as myself are trying to carry on tradition
Keeping this schweppervescent street ghetto essence inside us
Cause it provides us with the proper insight to guide us
Even though, we know somehow we all gotta go
But as long as we leaving thieving we'll be leaving with some kind of dough
So
, and to that day we expire and turn to vapors
Me
and my capers'll be somewhere stacking plenty papers
Keeping it real, packing steel, getting high -
Cause life's a ***** and then you die."


Compare that to what I consider the best verse in hip-hop (all of the non-red colors overlap to some extent with the main rhyme scheme and thus appear smaller than they actually are):

"Cause see, they call me a menace and if the shoe fits I'll wear it
But if it don't, then ya'll swallow the truth, grin and bear it
Now who's the king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics?
Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics?
Using his music to steer it, sharing his views and his merits
But there's a huge interference: they're saying, "you shouldn't hear it."
Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit
Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish
But I'm debated, disputed, hated and viewed in America
as a ************* drug addict, like you didn't experiment?
Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror
and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrassed
And I got nothing to do but make you look stupid as parents
who ******* do good, it's too bad you couldn't do good at marriage!
And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here I don't
think you do so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo
Cause here we go
"


Aside from the sheer quantity of rhymes, which verse do you think demonstrates better storytelling?


Gonna put the rest in spoilers because it really doesn't have much to do with the given topic of the nobel peace prize.

Being on-topic isn't really enforced afaik (this isn't an RD thread).

Your examples are good but you leave the greatest storyteller out. How can you forego Slick Rick the Ruler? 'Children's Story' is problably one of the most influential storytelling tracks in Hip Hop and still stands on its own after more than 20 years.

You haven't heard Cleanin' Out My Closet? Guilty Conscience? When I'm Gone? Stan?!

Incidentally, he also remade Children's Story as a diss track called Cani[female dog], if you want a more direct comparison.
 
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That isn't a rap song. Did you mean Empire State of Mind by Jay-Z? It's hard to describe it as lyrically "powerful," though.

That's a bit better, but it clearly isn't the best. I highlighted the rhyme schemes to show why:

"Visualizing the realism of life and actuality
**** who's the baddest, a person's status depends on salary
And my mentality is money orientated
I'm destined to live the dream for all my peeps who never made it
Cause yeah, we were beginners in the hood as five percenters
But something must have got in us cause all of us turned to sinners
Now some are resting in peace and some are sitting in San Quentin
Others such as myself are trying to carry on tradition
Keeping this schweppervescent street ghetto essence inside us
Cause it provides us with the proper insight to guide us
Even though, we know somehow we all gotta go
But as long as we leaving thieving we'll be leaving with some kind of dough
So
, and to that day we expire and turn to vapors
Me
and my capers'll be somewhere stacking plenty papers
Keeping it real, packing steel, getting high -
Cause life's a ***** and then you die."


Compare that to what I consider the best verse in hip-hop (all of the non-red colors overlap to some extent with the main rhyme scheme and thus appear smaller than they actually are):

"Cause see, they call me a menace and if the shoe fits I'll wear it
But if it don't, then ya'll swallow the truth, grin and bear it
Now who's the king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics?
Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics?
Using his music to steer it, sharing his views and his merits
But there's a huge interference: they're saying, "you shouldn't hear it."
Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit
Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish
But I'm debated, disputed, hated and viewed in America
as a ************* drug addict, like you didn't experiment?
Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror
and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrassed
And I got nothing to do but make you look stupid as parents
who ******* do good, it's too bad you couldn't do good at marriage!
And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here I don't
think you do so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo
Cause here we go
"


Aside from the sheer quantity of rhymes, which verse do you think demonstrates better storytelling?




Being on-topic isn't really enforced afaik (this isn't an RD thread).



You haven't heard Cleanin' Out My Closet? Guilty Conscience? When I'm Gone? Stan?!

Incidentally, he also remade Children's Story as a diss track called Cani[female dog], if you want a more direct comparison.

N.Y. State of Mind isn't a rap song? Are you okay? :lol:

It's the best track on the album in my opinion. Great imagery.

Now I like Jigga as much as the next guy, but your analysis is incredibly reductionist, as if rhyme scheme was everything that made a song lyrically great. To me it's not even close to the most important factor...

Prose, concise and accurate usage of words

Imagery, Symbolism, how (effectively) does a rapper manage to encapsulate ideas with words

Flow, of words, not the actual performance of the rapper

Last of all impetus, the force that makes something happen (within you), relateability, substance over mere lyrical cleverness

Those are all far more important than having a big vocabulary and having crazy rhyme schemes and meter (as much as I love that, trust me)

Also sorry, I really don't care for Eminem. Of course he's a talented lyricist, I just don't listen to his music anymore and don't feel knowledgeable enough to discuss his work.

I think Nas' track is so, so much better in terms of storytelling, because there is an actual, graspable story being told. Life's a ***** is still not the best storytelling track on Illmatic though, that's N.Y. State of Mind for sure.
 
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N.Y. State of Mind isn't a rap song? Are you okay? :lol:

Was thinking of the Billy Joel song. :shifty:

Also, take that video down before the mods see it.

Now I like Jigga as much as the next guy,

That was Eminem on a Jay-Z song, actually. Imho very few rappers even approach Eminem in terms of lyricism (by any of your standards).

but your analysis is incredibly reductionist, as if rhyme scheme was everything that made a song lyrically great. To me it's not even close to the most important factor..

Why not? You don't get chills down your spine when you hear a series of words being rhymed over and over again in ways you never imagined? This is one of the great joys of rap music for me.

Prose, concise and accurate usage of words

Imagery, Symbolism, how (effectively) does a rapper manage to encapsulate ideas with words

Last of all impetus, the force that makes something happen (within you), relateability, substance over mere lyrical cleverness

I gave numerous examples of Eminem's storytelling.

Flow, of words, not the actual performance of the rapper

Listen to Renegade and tell me the flow by either rapper isn't better than anything Nas has done.

I think Nas' track is so, so much better in terms of storytelling, because there is an actual, graspable story being told.

I'm assuming you listened to either Infinite or Em's post-Relapse work. That's the only way you could possibly make this comparison.
 
Now I like Jigga as much as the next guy, but your analysis is incredibly reductionist, as if rhyme scheme was everything that made a song lyrically great. To me it's not even close to the most important factor...

Prose, concise and accurate usage of words

Imagery, Symbolism, how (effectively) does a rapper manage to encapsulate ideas with words

Flow, of words, not the actual performance of the rapper

Last of all impetus, the force that makes something happen (within you), relateability, substance over mere lyrical cleverness

Those are all far more important than having a big vocabulary and having crazy rhyme schemes and meter (as much as I love that, trust me)

Also sorry, I really don't care for Eminem. Of course he's a talented lyricist, I just don't listen to his music anymore and don't feel knowledgeable enough to discuss his work.

I think Nas' track is so, so much better in terms of storytelling, because there is an actual, graspable story being told. Life's a ***** is still not the best storytelling track on Illmatic though, that's N.Y. State of Mind for sure.

Don't forget other qualities of verse:

prosody, scansion, alliteration, assonance, enjambment, parallelism, etc.

N.Y. State of Mind is excellent. The beat is, perhaps with the exception of Halftime, the best on the album. That baseline is iconic. One Time 4 Your Mind is another great example of Nas' lyrical brilliance. The rhythm of his flow in that song is great. I haven't formally scanned it, but it has this dactylic quality to it that sounds great and you don't hear a whole lot in hip hop.

But I'ma lamp, ‘cause a crime couldn't beat a rhyme
Niggas catching 3 to 9's, Muslims yelling "Free the mind"
And I'm from Queensbridge, been to many places
As a kid when I would say that out of town, niggas chased us
But now I know the time, got a older mind
Plus control a 9, fine, see now I represent mine
I'm new on the rap scene, brothers never heard of me
Yet I'm a menace, yo, police wanna murder me

It's not just the rhyming, which itself is fantastic, it's the enjambment, it's hard to find a good stopping off point, the each line bleeds into the next. Plus the rhythmic/metric qualities are great. For example all of his rhymes on [ɑɪ] are done within cretics: 'cause a crime; beat a rhyme; 3 to 9's; Free the mind; know the time; older mind. (long syllables bolded). Then at the end of that section he switches it up. Onto the cretic he adds a long syllable that rhymes: (con)trol a 9, fine, and he finishes the passage with a molossus in which the final two syllables follow that [ɑɪ] sound that he's been playing around the whole time: (repre)sent mine I'm. It's a nice little coda on which to segue into the next section of his verse. It's just a brilliant bit of poetics and illmatic is full of these.
 
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Pfft, give me good old fashioned three-chords-and-also-yelling any day of the week.
 
Don't forget other qualities of verse:

prosody, scansion, alliteration, assonance, enjambment, parallelism, etc.

I should have seen this coming; it's not that far behind thinking bars of color on a canvas constitute art.

It's not just the rhyming, which itself is fantastic, it's the enjambment, it's hard to find a good stopping off point, the each line bleeds into the next.

He was doing it on purpose?!? That annoyed me to no end.

Plus the rhythmic/metric qualities are great. For example all of his rhymes on [ɑɪ] are done within cretics: 'cause a crime; beat a rhyme; 3 to 9's; Free the mind; know the time; older mind. (long syllables bolded). Then at the end of that section he switches it up. Onto the cretic he adds a long syllable that rhymes: (con)trol a 9, fine, and he finishes the passage with a molossus in which the final two syllables follow that [ɑɪ] sound that he's been playing around the whole time: (repre)sent mine I'm. It's a nice little coda on which to segue into the next section of his verse. It's just a brilliant bit of poetics and illmatic is full of these.

I bet you could be convinced that having a bowl movement constitutes art as well.

(Also, weren't you complaining about people taking things from other contexts and using them for their own purposes? In actual hip-hop circles they talk about 'bars,' 'rhymes,' and 'flow.')
 
That's a great track, added to my work playlist, thanks

edit: video now taken down, I guess there were a couple f-bombs in it. But it's rap, so what do you expect

You're welcome, glad you like it. I took it down myself after Mouthwash's hint, already have too many warnings anyway :D

That was Eminem on a Jay-Z song, actually. Imho very few rappers even approach Eminem in terms of lyricism (by any of your standards).

Why not? You don't get chills down your spine when you hear a series of words being rhymed over and over again in ways you never imagined? This is one of the great joys of rap music for me.

I gave numerous examples of Eminem's storytelling.

Listen to Renegade and tell me the flow by either rapper isn't better than anything Nas has done.

I'm assuming you listened to either Infinite or Em's post-Relapse work. That's the only way you could possibly make this comparison.

I know it was 'Em on a Jay-Z song, I just liked Jay-Zs verse more. Really don't feel the flow and enunciation on Em's verse, but that's personal preference.

>Why not? You don't get chills down your spine when you hear a series of words being rhymed over and over again in ways you never imagined?

I do, but it's not the only reason why I appreciate rap songs.. Seems like you are purposefully misunderstanding me.

>Listen to Renegade and tell me the flow by either rapper isn't better than anything Nas has done.

What do you strive to achieve saying smth like that? I already stated that I think so. I guess it must be hard to accept that people have widely different opinions when you believe quality in poetry to be objective :lol:

>I'm assuming you listened to either Infinite or Em's post-Relapse work. That's the only way you could possibly make this comparison

I've listened to Infinite, Slim Shady LP, Marshall Mathers LP, Eminem Show, Encore and nothing after iirc.

I should have seen this coming; it's not that far behind thinking bars of color on a canvas constitute art.

He was doing it on purpose?!? That annoyed me to no end.

I bet you could be convinced that having a bowl movement constitutes art as well.

(Also, weren't you complaining about people taking things from other contexts and using them for their own purposes? In actual hip-hop circles they talk about 'bars,' 'rhymes,' and 'flow.')

>I should have seen this coming; it's not that far behind thinking bars of color on a canvas constitute art.

You sound like the smug soccer mum "my-5-year-old-can-do-this-too" type :D You do not get to be the arbiter of what does and what does not constitute art. Just because you think abstract expressionism isn't art doesn't make it not-art. You can say it's "bad art", sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that the artist intended it to be art.

I think Owen's criteria are completely valid - If they apply to literary analysis of poetry how the hell do they not apply to rap lyrics?
 
I do, but it's not the only reason why I appreciate rap songs.. Seems like you are purposefully misunderstanding me.

I'm not. I just don't understand why someone would favor a mediocre rhyme scheme over one of the best rhyme schemes in the hip-hop, unless they didn't really care for rhyming in the first place.

I've listened to Infinite, Slim Shady LP, Marshall Mathers LP, Eminem Show, Encore and nothing after iirc.

You think Nas has better *storytelling* than songs like When I'm Gone, Stan, or The Way I Am?

You do not get to be the arbiter of what does and what does not constitute art. Just because you think abstract expressionism isn't art doesn't make it not-art. You can say it's "bad art",

I am, kind of. But does all art really deserve to be lumped together?

I think Owen's criteria are completely valid - If they apply to literary analysis of poetry how the hell do they not apply to rap lyrics?

Because rap is music. Different medium.

Owen seems like one of those people who speak of "economic equality" and "microaggressions" but have never had a real conversation with a minority cab driver. No one listens to rap because of some weird, esoteric poetry devices, unless they're a white college student with an inflated ego who thinks he can refute racism by finding 'colored music' to be sophisticated.
 
How can you have the guts to say that rap song lyrics belong to a different medium than poetry when you are discussing exclusively about rhyme and rhythm?

More concerning, why do you accuse someone of elitism and racism out of the blue?
 
I'm not. I just don't understand why someone would favor a mediocre rhyme scheme over one of the best rhyme schemes in the hip-hop, unless they didn't really care for rhyming in the first place.

You think Nas has better *storytelling* than songs like When I'm Gone, Stan, or The Way I Am?

I am, kind of. But does all art really deserve to be lumped together?

Because rap is music. Different medium.

Owen seems like one of those people who speak of "economic equality" and "microaggressions" but have never had a real conversation with a minority cab driver. No one listens to rap because of some weird, esoteric poetry devices, unless they're a white college student with an inflated ego who thinks he can refute racism by finding 'colored music' to be sophisticated.

>I'm not. I just don't understand why someone would favor a mediocre rhyme scheme over one of the best rhyme schemes in the hip-hop, unless they didn't really care for rhyming in the first place.

Actually I never said that I favored Nas' rhyme scheme - It's clearly less complicated. Whether that means bad or not.. Up to the individual. I think Em's is more sophisticated for sure

>You think Nas has better *storytelling* than songs like When I'm Gone, Stan, or The Way I Am?

Yes, how often do you need to ask?

>Because rap is music. Different medium.

We are analyzing lyrics. So no, not a different medium. It's literally written poetry. Beat poets were both poets and rappers, too. Why make this arbitrary distinction?

Even Homer was of the opinion that poetry should be recited. He did not make this arbitrary distinction either. In either case, you're wrong.

>I am, kind of. But does all art really deserve to be lumped together?

Only kind of? What is that even supposed to mean?

>Owen seems like one of those people who speak of "economic equality" and "microaggressions" but have never had a real conversation with a minority cab driver. No one listens to rap because of some weird, esoteric poetry devices, unless they're a white college student with an inflated ego who thinks he can refute racism by finding 'colored music' to be sophisticated.

That is an embarrassing amount of projection and ad hominem and I advise you to just delete that part of your post to save face :lol:

Of course I am not at all surprised that you'd pull n argument like "other people don't genuinely enjoy things, they only do it for image.

Obviously you're the only one with a genuine love for rap music and also the one with objectively the best taste! :crazyeye:
 
Mouthwash said:
Owen seems like one of those people who speak of "economic equality" and "microaggressions" but have never had a real conversation with a minority cab driver. No one listens to rap because of some weird, esoteric poetry devices, unless they're a white college student with an inflated ego who thinks he can refute racism by finding 'colored music' to be sophisticated.

Translation: Mouthwash thinks black people are too dumb to understand these things.

I think Eminem is a great rapper but I don't like him. I can't stand the sound of his voice. It just annoys me.

My top three favorite rappers are Big L, Guru, and Rakim. Objectively speaking Rakim is probably the greatest rapper of all time. None of the stuff you guys are discussing right now ever would have dropped if it weren't for Paid In Full.
 
Rakim is very very good. And it's impossible to deny his influence on rap style and technique. Paid in Full is, as you noted, the single most important album in the history of hip hop. But I really just like illmatic a lot more. I just like Nas's storytelling and wordplay more, and his flow is imo more interesting to listen to. In the same way that, if you're talking jazz, Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come is probably the single most important album in the history of Jazz, but if I'm sitting down picking out a jazz album to listen to, I'm probably rather going to pick something like Head Hunters. The Shape of Jazz to Come is an undeniably great album, and Head Hunters 100% wouldn't exist without the Free Jazz that Coleman quite literally invented, but it's also just kind of mentally exhausting to listen to. And if you're asking me to talk about jazz, I'm far more likely to talk about Chameleon or Miles Davis' Pharaoh's Dance or *****es Brew than I am, say, Lonely Woman. Rakim's sort of the same for me when it comes to hip hop.
 
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Translation: Mouthwash thinks black people are too dumb to understand these things.

I think Eminem is a great rapper but I don't like him. I can't stand the sound of his voice. It just annoys me.

My top three favorite rappers are Big L, Guru, and Rakim. Objectively speaking Rakim is probably the greatest rapper of all time. None of the stuff you guys are discussing right now ever would have dropped if it weren't for Paid In Full.

But Slim, what if you win (the nobel)?
 
Yeah, I mean I'm not going to sit and argue you're wrong to like Illmatic more. I like plenty of stuff more than Paid In Full - I actually like both Follow The Leader and Don't Sweat The Technique more. That Rakim is one of my favorite rappers and also, in my opinion anyway, the greatest ever is purely coincidental. My favorite part of hip-hop is the cadence- how the verse interacts with the beat. I don't care about rhyming so much.

I can't speak to the jazz stuff, I'm far from an aficionado when it comes to that.
 
John Hodgman has some thoughts on the Dylan/Noble thing, which I meant to post last week,

Hodgman said:
*Song writing is an art form. Obviously. Not greater, nor lesser, than the writing of prose, poetry, and plays and publishing them in books, which is more or less how literature was defined in the modern world until today.

*Songs are not “poems set to music.” They are lyrics and music written together, to complement and to create a whole effect that may be greater than either part alone. Additionally, and thanks to Dylan, they are entwined with performance–in the case of Dylan, a very personal and singular style of performance.

*That is to say, the lyrics of Bob Dylan are not the work, however inspired, powerful, and important they are. Arguably not even the songs are the work. Red Hot Chili Peppers can cover “Subterranean Homesick Blues,” but no one is giving THAT the Nobel Prize for Literature. It is the inspirational genius of Bob Dylan writing and performing his songs that are the work.

*It takes nothing away from song to say that it is a distinct art form from what we had, until today, traditionally defined as “literature.” Today that term got broader. I’m not saying that’s bad per se, and we certainly can’t go back from here. And that may be a point of celebration for you–especially if you feel song is not taken seriously enough in culture, and calling it “literature” elevates it somehow.

*I might argue that song needs no elevation, as it is a profoundly mature, powerful, and pervasive form of culture whose reach, influence, and commerce almost certainly exceeds that of most literary novels, plays, and poems today. But you may feel differently.

*But even if you think SONG as an art form needed cultural validation, guess who didn’t? BOB DYLAN. This is one of the most celebrated artists on earth. And he is the recipient of some of the most prestigious awards–ironically, since few seem less interested in awards than Bob Dylan.

The tl;dr is, whether or not the lyrics to a song can be read as poetry, the lyrics are not the song, the song is the performance; the song does not need to be judged by the standards of literature, and indeed can't be fairly judged by such standards; that this award, even while elevating a particular work or artist, demeans the medium as a whole by reducing it to an annex of "real" literature; the great irony of all this being that Dylan was one of the people who decided for himself that a guy and his guitar could make art long before the culture at large gave him permission to do so.

This perhaps doesn't apply to the discussion about hip-hop, which you could argue is self-consciously literary in a way which other forms of popular music tend not to be, but none the less, something to consider.
 
It is true that usually hip-hop style music is all about the words, which is why often there are bands who just use samples (from other people) for the music.
In my view it doesn't help an award to spread it to pretty much any type of art which has words. Goethe's poems have been used in classical music, but it would be pretty stupid to have a yearly music ceremony give Goethe an award for influence on music.

The following may (under some circumstances) be deemed as more impressive/important etc than the poem alone, but it is a different work, it isn't the poem itself:

 
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