Succession game?

[AnotherPacifist]

I think we need more publicity, and what better than a succession game to do it? The new map has lots of potential, but I think for people used to regular Civ4, Yuan Shao would be exciting (but you need to know ahead of them to crush Cao first). So how about Lu Bu with monarch?

 

[Kenjister]

A succession game sounds great! I also support Lu Bu on monarch, his name easily remebered for people who don't know the era, he has a fun starting position (underdog, yeah!) and a very unique faction trait. I'd prefer doing this on the small map though, since it goes quicker, is harder to eliminate Cao Cao (Xu Chang on a hill!), and the campaigns are quicker and more decicive.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The problem with the small map is that it may have been doable before, but now the "favoring the major faction" change is making it much harder to do without an adequate number of cities to build troops in. I tried the 194AD map with Lu Bu and it's much easier (even though Xu Chang is still a . .. .. .. .. . to take).

Another option would be to use Liu Bei in the small map.

I still think eliminating troops with higher levels and giving the AI more troops is breaking the balance that was made before. While it may have been OK for Sun Ce, Yuan Shao and Cao Cao, t's just unrealistic to see Liu Bei to have a zillion troops to start.

 

[stmartin]

So for the purpose of a successful succession game, what would be the best balance move considering the initial unit's adjustment? I can take Liu Bei off the buff list. However, I'd like to mention on Monarch level, it's your troop reduce by about 30%, and the major AI's troop increase about 50%, is that so imbalance the game?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So Lu Bu is left with 5 troops while Cao Cao has 50% more (10 more)?! And that's only Monarch. I can seriously say that with my Yuan Shao Deity game, I've never seen so many Qingzhou Rebels (I must have counted about 25).
I would cap the increase for the AI at no more than 30% even with Deity if you really like this feature, and no city should be left undefended (like a capital).

 

[stmartin]

If you use Lu Bu, since Cao Cao is your neighbor, I remembered excluded Cao Cao from AI buffing list. I agree no city should left undefended, if it did, then it's a bug, because we specifically wrote code to avoid that.

So frankly speaking, what do you think about the difficulty level when you play as one of the strongest factions and have loyalty of some of the best heroes? It's not so much of a challenge or it's still challenging? I introduce this feature so the game won't be too easy and boring for stronger boys. What we need is the numbers.

Capping to 30% is really too low. Think about it, if you play Yuan Shao, say have half the initial unit, and Cao Cao has 30% more, is it challenging enough?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But I don't want to play as Yuan Shao or Cao Cao all the time. This system basically makes playing Yang Feng, Yuan Shu, Liu Yao, and all the smaller factions like my favorite Shan Yue and Meng Huo unplayable. E.g. the latter 2 are already backwards in tech, and Sun Ce has a grudge against Shan Yue, so after he finishes off Liu Yao, he will definitely come after you. All you can build is crossbows (and only after you research the tech), and you can't fight back with just archers. Unless you make some UHVs for smaller civs to win, nobody will ever play them on higher levels like monarch (which I consider as the basic level, just like in RFC).
I started many games as deity in Yuan Shao and sure enough, Ye is often left undefended. With the 200AD Guan Du scenario, Cao has so many troops that he just sent all of them across, and even though I have superior tech, their numbers alone overwhelmed me (imagine 1 horse and 2 Jizhou crossbows against an army of crossbows).
Isn't the tech penalty more than enough challenge?

 

[Kenjister]

Well, perhaps you can implement code that prevents buffing of your historical enemies. That was if you're playing Shan Yue, Sun Ce would not recieve any major bonus troops. Or perhaps you can disable unit reduction if you start at war, but maintain the bonus troops for the AI. The only civs that are really effected are the ones that start fighting for their lives. (In this case, only Lu Bu with his single city)

Well, back on topic: Liu Bei might be fun to play as, but it chafes to see Liu Bei expand out of Xu province and become a major power from the start after absorbing Yuan Shu's lands. Not to mention since this is to generate interest I would think a game of comeback would be a more gripping read. I just tried out a Lu Bu game, it all tends to come down to luck. If you lose relatively few troops Cao Cao falls to an easy blitz while he's still building infastructure. We could also try Ma Teng (194), but that might require a lower difficulty level due to horrible research rates.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, if you really like Lu Bu, we should play the regular map and with 194 AD, since he's got more of a chance there with more cities. (Other than you and me I don't think there'll be any other "veterans" of this mod playing) If that's OK with you I'll start and post something in the SG forum later on tonight.
My goals are:
1. Win only by domination or conquest
2. Kill all traditional enemies (no vassalization) such as Cao Cao, Liu Bei (who suggested to Cao that he be killed on capture), Yuan Shao (who tried to assassinate him), Yuan Shu. Everybody else can be vassalized.

 

[stmartin]

Today I tried a couple of games myself, looks like Dynamic Initial Unit needs some serious number adjustment.

So I adjusted the chance a little bit, here's the result:

KillProb = { 'HANDICAP_PRINCE' : 5,
'HANDICAP_MONARCH' : 10,
'HANDICAP_EMPEROR' : 15,
'HANDICAP_IMMORTAL' : 20,
'HANDICAP_DEITY' : 30
}
DupProb = { 'HANDICAP_PRINCE' : 10,
'HANDICAP_MONARCH' : 20,
'HANDICAP_EMPEROR' : 30,
'HANDICAP_IMMORTAL' : 40,
'HANDICAP_DEITY' : 50
}

The first is the chance your unit get killed, the second is the chance some of the strongest AI's unit got replicated.

I'd like to do some more testing before publishing these changes. If you think these numbers sound good, use it in this succession game.

The attached CvWBDesc.py file should go in The History of Three Kingdoms\Assets\Python\pyWB folder.

 

[Kenjister]

@AP, Ok that sounds great! The vassilization restrictions sound great too. What gamespeed are you going to put this game on?

stmartin, those numbers look good. I think the decrease of the players own troops is what throws off any strategies, not the increase in AI troops

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The numbers look better with the new file. But my main gripe is: the AI having 10 more professional cavalry and 9 Jizhou crossbows is much more damaging than you losing 5 crossbows, because he can then overwhelm you with numbers and stronger units. If we can tie into how strong the unit is and how much more (or less) likely it's going to be duplicated (obviously with the stronger units being less likely for the AI) or deleted (weaker units should go first, NOT the stronger, since you're already going to rely on fewer units).

What I'm trying to say is that the original numbers in the maps are very well balanced, and if played correctly the human should be able to achieve what was intended by their characted in history (e.g. either side winning the battle of Guan Du). The randomness just makes it somewhat impossible on the higher levels for certain people like Cao Cao (Yuan Shao has a better chance because he has stronger units to start with). Can we make the dup numbers the same as the killprob numbers?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Here's another argument for just duplicating and deletion of weaker units (read: archers and axemen). Essentially, land = power = gold = science. The quicker you can control more cities, the better your outcome. Think of my Sha Mo Ke game which I was going to win until the bugs. I expanded to the required number of cities to get science and culture going, and that's just with 1 strong unit (the 12 strength swordsman). What would make it much harder would be if there were more defenders. But if you deleted the swordsman (which is the case in the 200 AD start), it will be impossible to win at all.

Same thing goes for Sun Ce and Liu Yao--if the latter had more defenders, Sun Ce would have a much harder time conquering his traditional territory. If Sun Ce has more defenders but the SAME number of attackers, the difficulty would still be there for Liu Yao, but at least it'll be possible to defend (as opposed to right now when Sun Ce has virtually an army that can crush anything until Yizhou).

Right now, if I rolled a start without ANY horsemen or unique units (Danyang or Jizhou), I would just reroll, which kinda defeats what you are trying to achieve.

So how about adjusting the code to allow only for deletion or duplication of the weakest 3 types of units (archers, crossbows, axemen) for everybody, not just the traditional strong powers?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, I posted the first set of moves in 194 AD on the following forum. Kenjister I think you're up. Blizzrd (who's an expert in RFC and played some HoTK before the current patch) has also signed up. A 4th person is welcome.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=332870

 

[stmartin]

Here's another argument for just duplicating and deletion of weaker units (read: archers and axemen). Essentially, land = power = gold = science. The quicker you can control more cities, the better your outcome. Think of my Sha Mo Ke game which I was going to win until the bugs. I expanded to the required number of cities to get science and culture going, and that's just with 1 strong unit (the 12 strength swordsman). What would make it much harder would be if there were more defenders. But if you deleted the swordsman (which is the case in the 200 AD start), it will be impossible to win at all.

Same thing goes for Sun Ce and Liu Yao--if the latter had more defenders, Sun Ce would have a much harder time conquering his traditional territory. If Sun Ce has more defenders but the SAME number of attackers, the difficulty would still be there for Liu Yao, but at least it'll be possible to defend (as opposed to right now when Sun Ce has virtually an army that can crush anything until Yizhou).

Right now, if I rolled a start without ANY horsemen or unique units (Danyang or Jizhou), I would just reroll, which kinda defeats what you are trying to achieve.

So how about adjusting the code to allow only for deletion or duplication of the weakest 3 types of units (archers, crossbows, axemen) for everybody, not just the traditional strong powers?

Good point. I'll consider this very carefully and may rework the entire mechanic.

 

[Kenjister]

I played my set... everthing seems to be going great!

 

[hix]

I know this thread is old, but if anyone is down for an SG now, I would be into it.