Suggestion - penalty for Grigori religious cities

[feydras]

What about adding in a minor penalty for Grigori cities with a religion in them? Something like a +5% to maintenance for each religion. This would give them a reason to remove the religions. As it is now religion only benefits them. Of course this would only be fair if the Luonnator got back their inquisitor function.

Related note: The cultural flip and religion spread can be illogical at times. Imagine a Grigori city bordering on an empire running OO as state religion. OO spreads to the Grigori city granting it +2 culture per turn. This makes it harder for the OO empire to culturally take over the Grigori city when it should actually encourage the city to jump to the empire. A very minor issue probably not worth addressing but thought i'd point it out.

 

[Marnok]

I would actually suggest, that cultural growth drops dramatically for religion present - as religion is counter to Grigori culture. (probably any one religion is as bad as many). A city riddled with religion is more likely to culture-flip away from Grigori. Counterwise, a city hit by Grigori culture would gain Grigori% faster is they has no religion present.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I like the idea! Let religion have -culture for its normal culture in Grigori cities.
In the example of OO, let it be -2 culture per turn if the city owned by the Grigory.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I totally agree with Marnok's suggestion.

 

[Blackmantle]

You are aware that negative culture might kill a city? It did so in times of the old Cult of the Dragon... Might have changed but the diminishing borders sure are still in as seen with Loki...
But honestly i strongly dislike it.

Enough for reason alone allready that the Grigori are not that strong and don't need a nerf really (they just lost their most powerful mechanics / exploit with the change of Heal / Divine on medics. Which is perfectly understandable. But a big hit nontheless.)

They just got the councils back. Please don't pound them down all the way to subpar again...


If on the other hand its only about cultural dominance (read: city-flipping and population bar in the lower left) i would be more or less fine with it if! inquisition would work for Grigori then.
Imo still better without such a thing (or better only the part with the Grigori having stronger influence on other civs without a drawback of religions present in their cities.
And simply no benefits from religious culture to make up for it instead of straight negative as suggested here or positive as it is in the game right now...).

And if I'm not mistaken by lore Grigori culture (and Cassiels aims for that matter) is not about fanatically destroying religion and all its works wherever found but more about ignoring the gods and their influence + resisting power / meddling imposed on them + other men by the gods (which in turn would again more strongly point to ignoring religious culture instead of it actively destroying them and their culture.)...

Even if i should be wrong in terms of lore flavor shouldn't trump fun/gameplay (because that is what games are about).
I am more or less sure that a mechanics like that would be very unfun.

 

[Sarisin]

I don't like this idea.

In the games where I play the Grigori, I find that civs you have open borders agreements with spam disciples, etc. and send them into your cities to spread religions.

I mentioned before that they seem to have a 100% rate of spreading successfully too and that doesn't make sense.

I used to try and keep HN units in/near my cities so I could pick them off, but they would keep on coming.

You could not have open borders agreements, but that has other negative issues.

If you were to do this, then I think you need something to prevent other civs from actively spreading their religion into your cities.

 

[TheGreatSteve]

What about adding in a minor penalty for Grigori cities with a religion in them? Something like a +5% to maintenance for each religion. This would give them a reason to remove the religions. As it is now religion only benefits them. Of course this would only be fair if the Luonnator got back their inquisitor function.

Related note: The cultural flip and religion spread can be illogical at times. Imagine a Grigori city bordering on an empire running OO as state religion. OO spreads to the Grigori city granting it +2 culture per turn. This makes it harder for the OO empire to culturally take over the Grigori city when it should actually encourage the city to jump to the empire. A very minor issue probably not worth addressing but thought i'd point it out.

The second point isn't actually the case. If I remember correctly, a city having the religion of it's neighbor but not the nation's own is twice as likely to flip. If it has the same religion as it's nation and a different one from the neighbor it's half as likely.

So, Grigori city with OO next to an OO nation is twice as likely to flip.
A city with OO belonging to a nation with OO would be half as likely to flip to the Grigori.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd prefer adding several negative events than can happen in any city with a non-state religion. (There should also be some more serious versions that only happen wiht certain civ/religion combos, like having Empyrean Calabim cities have a large change of revolting.)

I'm thinking the Grigori should be blocked from using the Religion or Theocracy civics, and that the Illians should get some extra bonuses from these civics tied to their implied White Hand religion instead of the main 7 religion in the game.


I still think that the Luonnatar should loose the Inquisitor promotion and gain a unit-specific "Enlighten" spell that that acts like Inquisition but with no references to State religion. That means you can use it without adopting a religion (since you couldn't do that anyway) and could remove your rivals state religion from their cities. I also like the idea of letting them cast a spell (perhaps the same one, perhaps a seperate spell) that lets them remove the religion from nearby units, even priests who thus loose access to their spells.

(I also like making Luonnatar have lower base strength, but come at Philosophy instead of Strength of Will. I do make Philosophy come a little latter and be more expensive, but it is still a lot sooner than Strength of Will.)

Inquisition should probably be open to the Illians without a state religion too, or else some other more thematic equivalent.

I'm thinking that Priests of Winter should be buildable after the ritual is complete, and that they should have a spell to found Temples of the Hand in other cities (which would go ahead and terraform it to winter terrain too), maybe even in non-Illian cities. Perhaps founding a Temple of the Hand could also remove other religion, and maybe even block religions from spreading to the city.

I'm thinking that religion spreading through spells should probably have a chance to fail, like normal spreading does.


Agnostic trait leaders should probably not have their units start with religions. (This is already blocked in FF.)

 

[vivictius]

Awful idea considering how long far into the game it takes until you can remove religions as Grigori, they are not very strong to begin with, this would make them almost unplayable.

 

[thapagan]

Gee a handfull of priest of winter could really KO even the strongest civ if the could, Found a temple of the hand, get a few coins for it, turn the city into a ice field, reducing its production to the city square and a few mines, and food, well your outta luck.

Temple dropping is one of my favorite peacetime tactics.