Suggestions for 1.185

[Zagoroth]

star15389:
To argue your point, The technologies did have a massive effect on China. The printing press created a reinstatement of Confucianism, Neo-Confucianism. It allowed people to read the Confucian texts, and soon after China had officials being put into office based on tests. This would otherwise be known as civil service. These tests were to test the Chinese people on their knowledge of Confucianism, and any male citizen could take these tests, besides actors perhaps. The reintroduction of Confucianism is what brought China down, to agree with you, as it advised people to look to the old methods of science. It also brought about the destruction of the Chinese fleet which, by the way, was the greatest the world had ever seen. It was even bigger than the majority of European fleets much later. The Chinese ships at the time were at least three times bigger than the ones that Columbus would use to discover America roughly eighty years later. If your interested read up on Zheng He's treasure ships.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I would debate China being so much more advanced than the Europeans prior to 1600. The Chinese did discover those things before the Euros (the Printing Press used in China, however, was much less economical than the later European ones, it didn't break the hold of Confucian scholars on education and didn't enable an intellectual revolution), but Europe had Banking, Engineering (no castles in China), Optics, Astronomy, Education, and Replaceable Parts before China while, by even 1300, not lacking Compass, Gunpowder, Civil Service, Philosophy, or the other techs China got first. Western Europe was certainly ahead by 1500.

I think you're confusing Civ4 techs and real world techs. China doesn't use an alphabet, but it's required for training spies and research in the game. Engineering was certainly present in China way before, but Civ4 decided to call it Construction instead (Great Wall). (and yes, the Chinese had castles or their equivalent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_city_wall
Civil Service was present in the Spring and Autumn Period/Warring States in 400 BC, while the closest Roman equivalent is debatably not present until the Empire (i.e. 20 BC-70AD). Banking, well, is an artificial construct for the game (there was banking activity with the Greeks, and the Chinese had bullion and paper currency way before there were banks). Astronomy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_astronomy
And education, don't even get me started on Confucian models of education.

What is really lacking is how to distinguish the scientific mode of thinking that is lacking in Chinese history, and that may be better mirrored by built in increased tech cost after the Renaissance.

 

[star15389]

that list is so long...

It's also very specific ("the anti-malarial qualities of artemisia"), most of the stuff in there wouldn't really qualify as a tech in Civ. It reminds me that the China was also first to Horseback Riding, which it usually is in RFC. But how many of the inventions in the list were made after 1300AD? Compare that number to the number for a tiny country like England and argue that China was the more advanced society in 1600 AD.

 

[Zagoroth]

I agree that China fell behind by that time, but it was still a formidable power in the 1500's, still much stronger than Western Europe. After that Europe caught ahead, and the final nail in China's coffin would be the Opium Wars starting at 1839. At that time China had barely advanced at all since the 1600's, and England had advanced quite a bit. China then got abused by all the European nations, and America, who forced China to sign many unequal treaties.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The majority of English inventions came after the Industrial Revolution if you look on that list in Wikipedia. Which is appropriate. We're talking about the transition from Medieval to Renaissance though here.

All right, I concede that the date when Europe overtook China is debatable (I would say 1600 AD, some would say 1500 AD). My point is that with something like brute force and probably lots and lots of manpower and failed experiments, China invented the stuff it did, but the spirit of competition simply wasn't there and that's what doomed China to stagnation. It had a too haughty view of itself ("the Middle Country") and viewed everybody else as barbarians, and thus could not assimilate Western knowledge even when the Jesuits brought it in. Japan was in the same boat until the late 1800's. This lack of innovation and competition is mirrored best by the Civ4 tech of Scientific Method, and that's why I think a reverse-Mayan UP is applicable after that. In fact, by applying a built-in increased cost to Japan's research it will make the 3rd UHV much harder that what it is now.

Wikipedia quotes Rhye's favorite author:

In Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond postulates that the lack of geographic barriers in much of China (essentially a wide plain with two large navigable rivers, and a relatively smooth coastline) led to a single government without competition. At the whim of a ruler who disliked new inventions, technology could be stifled for half a century or more. In contrast, Europe's barriers of the Pyrennes, the Alps, and the various defensible peninsulas (Denmark, Scandinavia, Italy, Greece, etc.) and islands (Britain, Ireland, Sicily, etc.) led to smaller countries in constant competition with each other. If a ruler chose to ignore a scientific advancement (especially a military or economic one), his more-advanced neighbors would soon usurp his throne.

 

[star15389]

Civ 4 techs are pretty relevant for a game called Civ4. Construction isn't the same as Engineering, Engineering represents medieval/early renaissance advances that they didn't have in China. A city wall is more akin to Walls than a Castle. Civil Service is a rather arbitrary tech and I don't dispute that China had it first. Most Europeans, however, had it by 1400 (CS enables Maces in the game, and there are maces in the Bayeux Tapestry.) Banking is not really arbitary; I would argue it refers to Banks in early Renaissance Italy in the 15th century, when the tech is usually discovered. Astronomy doesn't refer to constellations and what-not (otherwise it would be a very early tech, whereas it's actually a Renaissance tech), but to lots of advances. It requires Optics, which I would say includes the telescope (introduced by the Jesuits in the 17th century, who had a lot to teach the Chinese about Astronomy despite being themselves well-behind most other European astronomers), and enables ocean-going ships, which the Chinese didn't have.

 

[Zagoroth]

To make one more point, don't worry the last one for now, it is definitely 1600 C.E. This is because at 1500 China stopped advancing, but was still ahead of Europe, by 1600 Europe had surpassed China. Also it is due to Confucianism that led to the decline of scientific achievements.

 

[Zagoroth]

China had ocean going ships, much bigger and better than the ones Spain used to discover America. Please read Zheng He's treasure ships
What happened was that China destroyed all of their ocean going ships in the late 15th century. So what we have is a forgotten art, not something the Chinese never learned.

I guess my previous post was not my last point...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Actually, castles reflect that historically Europe did not have gunpowder early on (which basically demolishes the reasoning behind having strongholds). The ROTK mod correctly substitutes the building called inner walls for a castle. Administration of the city was what was intended rather than defensive purposes.
And pray tell me what engineering feats that the Europeans have that the Chinese did not in 1400AD? The arbitrary division of Construction, Engineering and Machinery in Civ4 does not reflect real life. One cannot imagine building the Forbidden Palace without "engineering."

 

[Zagoroth]

Also the castles only reflect the highly Feudal government of Western Europe. There were no big cities, besides remnants of the Roman Empire. All there were was a feudal system where a king would lend land to vassals in return for services. The "cities" were just a castle, a church, and a small village of serfs who worked for that specific vassal/ lord

 

[Panopticon]

Here is a summary of my proposals in the Minor Suggestions Thread as well as others:

1. Change American AI behaviour/settler map to encourage more wide-ranged development, since it doesn't have the concentrated space and resources of Europe.
2. Reduce 600 AD Byzantine AI's tendency to build Notre Dame (for French UHV)
3. The UK's dynamic name should be "British Empire" even under Rep/Suffrage governments.
4. Colonial cities (i.e. outside normal area) should be more likely to declare independence under master's instability.
5. American UP should spread religion from immigrants. If this is implemented, maybe American leaders should be inclined to choose the Free Religion civic.
6. Implement my RealCapitals mod.
7. Paint the River Spree beside Germany's starting point to increase Berlin's industrial power.
8. Replace Celtic Lugdunum with Massilia in the 3000 BC start.

 

[Panopticon]

Longer-term suggestions which are too much work to categorise as a simple component of a patch:
1. Religious schisms
2. Update to Better AI

 

[Tiberias]

I would really, really like to see the stability maps broadened to regions rather than being site-by-site. The problem with the square-by-square stability maps is that they are incredibly arbitrary; you have to know, in some cases, *exactly* where a Civ expanded historically to know where to place your cities. Players who don't like using spoilers are penalized because they place their city one square away from where it "should" be, and players who do use spoilers have to break out the magnifying glass to figure out which square, exactly, their city should go.

I would suggest switching to a system where Civs can safely expand within a coherent region, if not an entire continent. E.g., Maya can expand to all of Central America, America all of North America, Mongolia all of Asia, etc. The general rule should be, not where the Civ did expand historically, but where it *could* have expanded. The way the system is designed, you can (usually) expand to the maximum historic boundaries, but not much further. Keeping it continent by continent will give more players flexibility while limiting Mongolia or Rome from colonizing the world.

 

[JujuLautre]

Side note:
I'm not doing anything as long as our problem with Wikipedia is not fixed:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8050555&postcount=25

It's quite sad to read that Rhye. I, for one, would be happy to be of any help and write stuff on Wikipedia; but I have no idea what the consequences may be if they found my account (which I just used to correct some typos here and there - definitely not a big account) was used to change lots of stuff about RFC. I fear this could make things much worse than they are already. And I believe I'm not the only one to think that way.

-- if I get some time one day, I'll look at the french and english pages of civ/warlords/bts and see what is wrong/could be added; in the meantime I'll do my best to re-add some of your content. What do you think ?

 

[civ_king]

It's also very specific ("the anti-malarial qualities of artemisia"), most of the stuff in there wouldn't really qualify as a tech in Civ. It reminds me that the China was also first to Horseback Riding, which it usually is in RFC. But how many of the inventions in the list were made after 1300AD? Compare that number to the number for a tiny country like England and argue that China was the more advanced society in 1600 AD.

I'm going to find some that are cIV applicable (I'll update as necessary...)
First off,
Paper 3rd century BCE
Movable type printing ("printing press") 1088 CE
Gunpowder 1044 CE
Compass 220/1031 CE (220 is when the figure out lodestones, 1031 is first description of declination allowing true north)
Agriculture 8500 BCE (they start with it right?)
Silk use 3630 BCE
more later

 

[blizzrd]

The proof:

Spoiler :

Are you playing the most current patch? America's start was shifted to much later than that old start date.

 

[BurnEmDown]

civ_king, actually most ancient civs don't start with it. I know for sure that Persia, Ethiopia, Greece, Rome, and Carthage do not, and I think also that Egypt, India, and Babylon don't, As for China and Japan I'm not sure at all.

 

[onedreamer]

Tigranes:
1. Introduce new strategic resource for Gunpowder units (replace with Cotton, maybe).

I disagree, there must be units that can be built without strategic resources, and gunpowder units are the most appropriate.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Please fix the independent conquerors for 3000 BC starts (when Maya collapses their cities should be barbs or native). More than once it has spoiled my efforts for early optics. The interesting thing is that even though the Maya collapse way before 1300 AD, i.e. they get to meet the Aztecs before the conquerors appear, they still get them with Inca when they sail their workboat/galley down south.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I just want to hijack this thread one last time for the sake of completeness. Maces and Civil service have NOTHING to do with each other (in fact civil service should not give any military benefits since it's CIVIL). The fact that maces are enabled by it in Civ4 further demonstrates how arbitrary techs are. (I would personally favor giving maces to machinery and giving crossbows to an earlier tech)

And the honor of inventing practical optics should indeed go to the Arabs (who often have it in the mod by 1200 AD, somewhat historically) instead of the Europeans, who are so indebted to Arabic knowledge that RFCE has not 1 but 2 specific techs called Arabic Knowledge and Arabic Medicine. Were it not for the Arabs the Europeans would have never had the jump start it needed in the Renaissance.