Catharsis
catch u on the flip scythe
'Nuff said.
Suleiman's Harem
- Thread starter Flouzemaker
- Start date
'Nuff said.
I'm strongly in favor of Pacal just because our talented author said he liked the Civ (always makes for a better story) and the advisors would just look whack. Imagine three or four crazy looking guys and girls along with Pacal. It would be epic. 
Churchill's Hat
Mortal
Imagine pacal in the story having to cope with being half-naked...
Roi de Cinq
Chieftain
If you're interested in a 'fun map', you should try Terra. It would give an opportunity for a nice story. A whole continent for you to colonize. A shame you already portrayed Joao and Willem, it would be a perfect cliche. Or you could try to turn it around and use Pacal to colonize the 'Old World'.
Putchuco
Addictionado
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2006
- Messages
- 248
Fantastic read, and even better characters and drawings.
Can't wait for the next 'Civ4 comic adventure'...
Oh, and don't worry if the game is too challenging, it is SO much more satisfying to turn a seemingly lost game around!
And not only for you the player, but also us the readers.
The tirades and backstabbing and desperate measures ...
Oh, my!
Can't wait for the next 'Civ4 comic adventure'...
Oh, and don't worry if the game is too challenging, it is SO much more satisfying to turn a seemingly lost game around!
And not only for you the player, but also us the readers.
The tirades and backstabbing and desperate measures ...
Oh, my!
feldmarshall
Dictator
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2007
- Messages
- 387
Flouze, if you post the next story, please let us know by posting the link here ok?
Flouzemaker
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2007
- Messages
- 341
I just finished a game with Charlemagne and the HRE. While he could have great advisers, like Ronald and Wendy, the game itself isn't very entertaining, except for one funny moment.
Pacal II would certainly be disappointed by the way he looks in game! Is it the half-nekkid thing? Nah. An elaborately decorated loincloth is what the ruling class wore (while the peon would have plain ones). He'd wonder where his fine cape is, though.
He'd also wonder who cut his hair during his sleep, and would have the offender slowly tortured for a good number of years. The "upside down bowl" cut is a no-no. Very long hair in a top knot pony-tail is what Pacal the Great had... like all other Mayan rulers of the time.
Most importantly, he'd want his headdress back. Granted, it wouldn't come close to fitting on screen, but still. Without it, slaves might confuse him with one of their own.
Our Firaxis friends got Pacal's penchant for religion right.
When Pacal I died, there were no more male heirs in the patriarchal line, so his daughter, Lady Zac Kuk took the throne. She had married a non-royal noble named Kan Bahlum Mo' with whom she had a nine year old son named Pacal. Three years later, young Pacal II turned twelve, he was deemed old enough to rule in his mother's place.
However, Pacal II wasn't part of the ancient ruling patriarcal lineage, and he needed to solidify the legitimacy of his rule, a common concern with kings.
To achieve this, he put more emphasis on Mayan Cosmology during his rule. More specifically, he deified his mother as the reincarnation of First Mother (Goddess who gave the Mayan Patron Gods their powers), which implied he was the reincarnation of a God as well.
Since Pacal II was a teen at the time, I suppose that idea probably came from his mother, but who knows? It paved the way for possibly the longest and most successful reign in known Mayan history. Pacal II transformed Palenque (or Lakam Ha) from a minor city into a powerhouse, erecting numerous temples, palaces, and buildings, a trend continued by his son afterwards.
(Don't take all that as gospel. I simplified the story quite a lot.)
What does surprise me, is that the Firaxis crew did a great job in giving the Mayan cities their probable Mayan names (a lot are only guesses at this point) instead of the names Archeologists, Explorers, and Colonials gave them, like they used to.
And, while they did that, they got the Pacal leaderhead all wrong. What's with the haircut? The lack of a headdress?
Well... it happens, I guess.
I can understand the decision to omit the headdress. After all, Mayan illustrations are rather hard to decipher because of all the heavy stylistic renderings.
And liberties have been taken with plenty of other leaders. Catherine certainly wasn't that angular at all, for example.
Now, you see what you made me do? I just babbled on endlessly for no apparent reason!
Pacal II would certainly be disappointed by the way he looks in game! Is it the half-nekkid thing? Nah. An elaborately decorated loincloth is what the ruling class wore (while the peon would have plain ones). He'd wonder where his fine cape is, though.
He'd also wonder who cut his hair during his sleep, and would have the offender slowly tortured for a good number of years. The "upside down bowl" cut is a no-no. Very long hair in a top knot pony-tail is what Pacal the Great had... like all other Mayan rulers of the time.
Most importantly, he'd want his headdress back. Granted, it wouldn't come close to fitting on screen, but still. Without it, slaves might confuse him with one of their own.
Our Firaxis friends got Pacal's penchant for religion right.
When Pacal I died, there were no more male heirs in the patriarchal line, so his daughter, Lady Zac Kuk took the throne. She had married a non-royal noble named Kan Bahlum Mo' with whom she had a nine year old son named Pacal. Three years later, young Pacal II turned twelve, he was deemed old enough to rule in his mother's place.
However, Pacal II wasn't part of the ancient ruling patriarcal lineage, and he needed to solidify the legitimacy of his rule, a common concern with kings.
To achieve this, he put more emphasis on Mayan Cosmology during his rule. More specifically, he deified his mother as the reincarnation of First Mother (Goddess who gave the Mayan Patron Gods their powers), which implied he was the reincarnation of a God as well.
Since Pacal II was a teen at the time, I suppose that idea probably came from his mother, but who knows? It paved the way for possibly the longest and most successful reign in known Mayan history. Pacal II transformed Palenque (or Lakam Ha) from a minor city into a powerhouse, erecting numerous temples, palaces, and buildings, a trend continued by his son afterwards.
(Don't take all that as gospel. I simplified the story quite a lot.)
What does surprise me, is that the Firaxis crew did a great job in giving the Mayan cities their probable Mayan names (a lot are only guesses at this point) instead of the names Archeologists, Explorers, and Colonials gave them, like they used to.
And, while they did that, they got the Pacal leaderhead all wrong. What's with the haircut? The lack of a headdress?
Well... it happens, I guess.
I can understand the decision to omit the headdress. After all, Mayan illustrations are rather hard to decipher because of all the heavy stylistic renderings.
And liberties have been taken with plenty of other leaders. Catherine certainly wasn't that angular at all, for example.
Now, you see what you made me do? I just babbled on endlessly for no apparent reason!
Elponitnatsnoc
Master Debater
I stopped playing civilization and reading the forums for a while until, on a whim, I decided to check if there were any new interesting stories. I saw that your GIlgamesh one was rated 5 stars so I checked it out. I was hooked, you've introduced an enthralling and hilarious concept. Keep up the good work!
RockTheCazbah87
Pacal's pal
Flouzemaker, dude, you are just awesome.
Hurry up and make the next story? Please?!
Hurry up and make the next story? Please?!
carmen510
Deity
Subscribed! 
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
A pericles one would be cool. lots of plauque jokes
If you play as Pericles, I would rename him Leonidas and then make gratuitous references to madness, identity crises, and other 300 references. Indeed, if you can, you could rename Cyrus or Darius I "Xerxes" and beat up on him for the entire game.
@Flouzemaker: It seems like you have a lot of material to use for a Pacal game as well...whatever. I'll read it no matter what choice you make.
@Flouzemaker: It seems like you have a lot of material to use for a Pacal game as well...whatever. I'll read it no matter what choice you make.
Roi de Cinq
Chieftain
You do know that Pacal was one of the first aeronauts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PacalTree.JPG
That makes a fun space race victory ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PacalTree.JPG
That makes a fun space race victory ;-)
dazman92
Gabba Gabba Hey!
pacal sounds good, but i vote for shaka.
just cuz shaka rules.
just cuz shaka rules.
RockTheCazbah87
Pacal's pal
And especially annoying when you get him next door. 9/10 times that will happen to me!
StuntedAzrael
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Messages
- 182
What a interesting read Flouzemaker. You certanly sparkled my interest in Mayan civilization. Can anyone remember did Sid Meier include Mayans in Colonization? I distinctly remember having Aztecs and Incas as a rich native civilizations. Ah, the good times. I still have that game on my HD, and it works.
Flouzemaker
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2007
- Messages
- 341
That's the carving on the lid of Pacal II's tomb, in Palenque (Or Lakam Ha).
It depicts Pacal II, at the moment of his death, falling into Xibalba (the Underworld).
The cross shaped thing, over Pacal, is the Tree of Life. That sacred tree supports the Celestial Realm, which, in turn, is divided into 13 layers each ruled by a different god.
The Underworld, or Xibalba, has 9 layers ruled by 9 different gods. The ninth layer (the lowest) is Mitnal, the Mayan Hell. There, after death, evil people are tormented with cold, hunger, grief, etc.
Sacrificed people, those who commit suicide by hanging, warriors killed in battle, women who die in childbirth, priest, and rulers all directly go to the Mayan "Paradise," which is situated in the shade of the Tree of Life, where these good people forever rest from labor, and revel in delights of food, drink, and freedom.
However, Pacal's post death voyage is different. Since he is deified at death, he falls into Xibalba first... which is not a bad thing. Only the 9th layer is hell, the others are just different supernatural worlds.
Mayan cosmology is so frikkin' complicated, lol.
First, there are so many gods we don't know all of their names (in great part thanks to the Spanish destroying almost all Mayan codices).
The most important could be Itzamna, the reptilian god and creator of humankind, lord of the heavens, day, and night.
He's rather quite confusing since he's either one god with two personalities, or two gods hat are in fact one, being both good and bad. (Good during the day, bad at night) Often represented as a toothless of man, or a two-headed serpent.
It is thought that Kulkulcan, the feathered serpent, is but a different incarnation of Itzamna. Kulkulcan, which was renamed Quetzalcoatl in Nahuatl and worshiped by the Aztecs.
Kinich Ahau, the sun faced-one, is a good incarnation of Itzamna.
But there are many, many more gods... even a book (like the Popol Vuh) isn't enough to list them all. It seems there's a god for absolutely everything, every day, month, number, every ceremony, and gods to assist other gods. There's one of every type of death possible, like Ixtab, goddess of the gallows, who fetches hanging victims and protects them.
I have not played that. But, if that was placed at the time of Colonization, it may not be so surprising if the Maya weren't included.
At the time of Colonization, the Maya Empire had already suffered it's downfall, and all that was left was a few disorganized cities. The fall of Mayapan, one of the last large centers, had taken place roughly 100 years before Spanish conquest of the Maya. All that was left afterwards are commonly called "Petty States." Some sites may have been more or less prosperous, but all were a far-cry from the power previously held by other Mayan cities in the past.
In truth, Aztec and Maya were not really contemporaries. When the Maya were at the height of their power and glory (roughly from 500 BC to 1000 AD, depending on the region), the Aztecs were a minor tribe. When the Aztecs rose to power, roughly in 1200 AD, the Maya had pretty much disintegrated, politically speaking.
Only the Teotihuacan people were contemporaries of the Maya. The Aztec later found the ruins of Teotihuacan, and revered the place as sacred.
(To a degree, early Mayans also interacted with the Olmec, and preclassic Mayans also interacted with the Zapotecs, and later, the Mixtec.
Maybe a general timeline would help.
30,000 AD:
First migrations of settlers via Bering Strait land bridge, and begins populating North America
10,000 AD:
Second major migration crosses Bering Strait. South America now gets populated.
8,000 - 2,000 BC:
Much large game disappears. Tribes either switch to smaller game hunting, or begins early agriculture and village life.
3,500 - 1,700 BC:
Early ceramics (Valdivia, Ecuador)
2,000 - 400 BC
Early hieroglyphic writing & calenders by the Olmecs (Mexico).
2,000 - 200 BC:
Important improvements in agricultural and culture.
1,000 BC:
Maya: Expansion of settlements along rivers of central lowlands
750 BC:
Maya: Expansion of settlements non-river sites of central lowlands
800 - 200 BC:
Advances in art, ceramics, & weaving by the Chavín (Peruvian highlands).
500 BC:
Maya: Early Monumental architecture in Pacific plains and haighlands, and central lowlands. Interaction with neighboring groups like Mixe-Zoquean, Olmecs, etc). Beginning of complex social, political, and economic systems.
200 BC - 1,000 AD:
Emergence of cities, social stratification, and material culture.
100 BC:
Maya: Richer monumental architecture in all Mayan sites (from the Pacific to Southern & Northern lowlands), like Maya & Izapan styles, vaulted tombs, stucco-decorated façades, etc.
100 AD:
Maya: peak of population reached in Pacific regions.
- Mutal (or Tikal) founded by Yax Moch Xoc
300 AD - 900 AD:
- Architectural advancements in Monte Albán by Zapotecs (Mexico).
- High advancements in astrology, calendars, mathematics, and writing by Mayans (Honduras/Ecuador/Mexico), development of dynastic rule.
200 AD - 600 AD:
- Weaving & Mummy bundles by the Paraca (South Peruvian Coast)
- Nazca lines by the Nazca (Southern Peruvian Coast)
- Pottery with realistic paintings by the Moche (North Peruvian Coast)
450 AD - 750 AD:
- Theocratic Teotihuacán empire develops with large urban center (Pyramids of Sun and Moon), (Mexico).
600 AD:
Maya: Increasing competition and warfare among Mayan polities.
615 AD - 683 AD: Rule of Pacal the Great in Lakam Ha (or Palenque)
- 626: Pacal II marries Lady Ahpo Hel
- 641: First born son, Chan Bahlun II made heir
- 642: Death of Pacal II's father, Kan Bahlum Mo'
- 654-659: War with Yaxchilan, likely about Pacal II's capture of Yaxchilan noble Balam Te Chac, brother of Yaxchilan's heir to the throne: Shield Jaguar II.
- 672: Death of Lady Ahpo Hel
- 675: Major bloodletting ritual performed
- 683: Death and later accession of Chan Bahlum II.
600 AD - 800 AD:
- Rise of large urban cities & empires at Huari (Peruvian Highlands)
- Monolithic stone architecture at Tiwanaku (Bolivia)
800 AD:
Maya: Peak of population and size reached at most lowland centers.
849 AD:
Maya: The Itza Maya abandon Chakanputun and reoccupy Chichen' Itza.
950 AD - 1150 AD:
Formation of militaristic empire of the Toltecs (Mexico).
1000 AD:
Maya: Domination of Chichen' Itza. Mayapan founded.
1000 AD - 1476 AD:
Chimú empire in Peru, with very large city at Chan-chan and panaqa burial compounds.
1000 AD - 1500 AD:
Maya: Population loss and abandonment of many centers in Central & Southern lowlands & Pacific plains & highlands.
1200 AD - 1532 AD: Inka Empire in Andes (sophisticated and efficient organizational and administrative structures)
- 1200-1225: Manco Capac and Mama Ocllo found Cuzco, Inka Empire begins.
- 1425-1438: Viracocha Inka establishes cult of Viracocha & panaqa tradition.
- 1438-1471: Pachacuti Inka begins expansion out of Cuzco valley.
- 1471-1493: Tupac Inka defeats the Chimu and expands empire southwards (into Chile)
- 1493-1527: Huayna Capac expands north to Ecuador and Colombia, conquers some formerly glorious Mayan cities. Huayna Capac dies in small pox epidemic, lauching civil war between his two sons.
- 1532: Atahualpa wins civil war and becomes new leader.
1224 AD:
Maya: Conquest of Chichen' Itza by Mayapan, the Itza Maya are driven out, Chichen Itza' abandoned and Mayapan's domination begins.
1345-1521 AD: The Mexicas (or Aztecs) form a militaristic tribute empire (Mexico).
- 1325: Tenochtitlán founded.
- 1440-1487: Rapid expansion of power under rule of Emperor Moctezuma I.
- 1487: Dedication of the Great Temple in Tenochtitlán.
- 1502: Moctezuma II becomes emperor of Tenochtitlán.
1441:
Maya: civil revolt in Mayapan. This last important Mayan city is sacked, destroyed, and abandoned.
1511:
Spaniards first seen.
1519-22:
Hernán Cortés enters, lays siege to, and conquers Aztec capital Tenochtitlán.
- 1520: Death of Moctezuma II. Replaced by Cuitláhuac who dies of smallpox after an 8 day reign. Cuauhtémoc, the last Aztec emperor, continues to resist the Spaniards.
- 1521: Tenochtitlan falls to the Spaniards and their Indian allies.
1520-1535:
Maya: First two attempts at conquest by the Spanish are defeated.
1532:
Francisco Pizarro captures Atahualpa, ending the Inka Empire
- 1533-1536: Pizarro sets up Manco Inka as puppet ruler of Cuzco.
- 1534: Rumiñahui leads Inka resistance against Spanish.
1537:
Pope Paul III decides Indians have souls. Instead of killing Indians, colonists actively convert them, and destroy any "heretic" site, or object found.
1539:
Maya: Spanish Conquest of the Yucatan.
Hope that somehow helps more than it confuses, lol!
Why, starting around 1000 BC, the Mayan City States began to decline and gradually dissolve is still generally unexplained. Overpopulation and deforestation, famine, epidemics, civil wars? We don't really know for sure.
Thing is, if it may look like I know a thing or two about the Mayans... I'm not so well informed on ancient Greece (or Rome, for that matter), and I'd likely miss out of a lot of choice historical jokes.
Flouzemaker
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2007
- Messages
- 341
After playing a game as Charlemagne, I played an Epic one with Pacal that I did not finish. Mostly because I mean "Epic" as in the setting, not the quality of the game. I was so dominant in that one that it wasn't even funny.
Founded Hinduism and had no trouble converting all known leaders.
Meanwhile, the three first cities were surrounded by flood plains: that afforded a huge early expansion, creating a much bigger empire than any other on the map. All those flood plains also made me tech like mad.
Meanwhile, five "undiscovered" Civs were not, as I initially thought*, on the same continent. Turns out, all five of them were separated on 4 other isolated continents and, except for two of them, had no contact with each other. Needless to say, they were quite technologically backwards, not even having Meditation by the time I had Astronomy. And since only one of them had Buddhism, I easily converted the rest.
Back on the main continent, the Maya were so large, advanced, rich, and powerful, everyone else was basically sucking-up.
While it's a game that would have given me a great final score... it's just too one-sided for a good story.
*: I started playing with "Lock Modified Assets" again... so I can't look at the Map Builder at 4000 BC anymore. Did it in the Charlemagne game as well. I figured, that way it'll help making a more "difficult" game. But... the Mayan starting location and surrounding terrain was so... unfairly awesome that it didn't turn out that way.
I think I'll need to start another, this time making sure a win would be difficult. That's a lot more exciting!
Founded Hinduism and had no trouble converting all known leaders.
Meanwhile, the three first cities were surrounded by flood plains: that afforded a huge early expansion, creating a much bigger empire than any other on the map. All those flood plains also made me tech like mad.
Meanwhile, five "undiscovered" Civs were not, as I initially thought*, on the same continent. Turns out, all five of them were separated on 4 other isolated continents and, except for two of them, had no contact with each other. Needless to say, they were quite technologically backwards, not even having Meditation by the time I had Astronomy. And since only one of them had Buddhism, I easily converted the rest.
Back on the main continent, the Maya were so large, advanced, rich, and powerful, everyone else was basically sucking-up.
While it's a game that would have given me a great final score... it's just too one-sided for a good story.
*: I started playing with "Lock Modified Assets" again... so I can't look at the Map Builder at 4000 BC anymore. Did it in the Charlemagne game as well. I figured, that way it'll help making a more "difficult" game. But... the Mayan starting location and surrounding terrain was so... unfairly awesome that it didn't turn out that way.
I think I'll need to start another, this time making sure a win would be difficult. That's a lot more exciting!
On the old Colonization game...the Maya were not included. Flouzemaker has a great time line above.
My historical knowledge is more focused on Europe, across several periods (the classical civilizations like Greece and Rome all the way to the Modern era)...I'm not as experienced in Native American history or Far Eastern history. In any case, play what you know for these kinds of stories...what has made the last couple stories great was the jokes, and this one especially (De Gaulle's anecdote, for example).
I'm looking forward to your next game.
My historical knowledge is more focused on Europe, across several periods (the classical civilizations like Greece and Rome all the way to the Modern era)...I'm not as experienced in Native American history or Far Eastern history. In any case, play what you know for these kinds of stories...what has made the last couple stories great was the jokes, and this one especially (De Gaulle's anecdote, for example).
I'm looking forward to your next game.
