[Sword of Islam]: Byzantine Conquest

[jammerculture]

one potential problem with raiding the Samanids with the goal of razing a over cultured city: what if the city has a wonder? your rules prohibit razing wonders.

Also disbanding Levantine cities would get you archers, but razing them would get you population in Damascus, and lower your piety to help prevent religious victory. In one game I razed the city NW of Damascus three or four times. It kept respawning, going into revolt and then my horse warriors from damascus would wipe up the wounded defenders. Lots of experience and refugee population for Damascus

 

[Jusos2108]

I think the idea was to kill all the defenders except one, after which the city will flip to us and we can disband it.

 

[blizzrd]

one potential problem with raiding the Samanids with the goal of razing a over cultured city: what if the city has a wonder? your rules prohibit razing wonders.

The only way the Samanids are going to have a Wonder is if they get a Great Engineer, which means that they wont get a Great Artist!

Also disbanding Levantine cities would get you archers, but razing them would get you population in Damascus, and lower your piety to help prevent religious victory. In one game I razed the city NW of Damascus three or four times. It kept respawning, going into revolt and then my horse warriors from damascus would wipe up the wounded defenders. Lots of experience and refugee population for Damascus

Razing them would hinder our relationships with other Orthodox civs though, which is why it is not really a good idea.

Is the Religious victory based on Piety or % influence for your State Religion across the map? I thought it was the latter, not the former.

 

[rrosen]

The only way the Samanids are going to have a Wonder is if they get a Great Engineer, which means that they wont get a Great Artist!



Razing them would hinder our relationships with other Orthodox civs though, which is why it is not really a good idea.

Is the Religious victory based on Piety or % influence for your State Religion across the map? I thought it was the latter, not the former.

Yep. Also, my usual experience is that they settle any artists in small border cities (e.g. Otrar) and not the centres of their civilization.

I checked the religious victory, it is based on % influence of state religion, 75% for orthodoxy, 80% for sunni islam.

 

[blizzrd]

I checked the religious victory, it is based on % influence of state religion, 75% for orthodoxy, 80% for sunni islam.

I'm thinking that our SG goal might change to be spread Orthodoxy to all of our cities outside of Hindustan (as opposed to all of our cities), in order to prevent us winning a Religious Victory 'by accident'.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I think we should be the first to run religious freedom and spread all religions in all of our cities...but that's just me.

 

[Science Rules]

I'm downloading the patch right now.

I will being playing within the hour.

I'll do my best to follow all the advice here (hopefully I'll remember it all).

 

[Science Rules]

Done!

Turn 0: At 10% science we are losing 3 gold per turn. I turn slider to 0 because we need the cash for mercenaries.

Turn 1: Constantinople begins War Galley & Work Boat heads to clams. We need a war galley escort against pirates soon.

Turn 2: Varangain Guard begins healing in Amastris. I decide to promote him to Combat I; hopefully he'll get shock later on.

Turn 3: Order around the workers. Building mines in cities with surplus food, building farms in cities without much food. Workers evacuated from Thrace due to Bulgar threat.

Turn 4: While defending, we destroy two Bulgar Raiders at Adrianople and a barb swordsman at Sinopi.

Turn 5: Damascus Swordsman destroys Kharijite archer on defense. Because he is hurt, he won't be doing any target practice for a few turns even through the mercenary Moesian Raider has finally arrived to relive him.
Bulgars pillage Adrianople's improvements. Ancyra finishes market, begins missionary; I put granary in the qeue. Abassids are no longer giving us 1 gpt.
New mercenaries are availible. I hire an archer with city defense II to help guard Damascus. Other options are Combat I spearman and Combat IV archer.

Turn 6: Adrianople Archer takes out a few Bulgar Axeman, but dies on last one. Spearman is still alive so we keep the city, but one axeman is still sitting outside the city. I'm going to send the newly purchased mercenary archer to Adrianople instead of Damascus.

Turn 7: Mercenary Archer destroys Bulgar Axeman in rural Thrace. Armenia spawns, I send a horse out to meet them.
Great Saint (Joannicius the Great) born in Constantinople; I have him slumber in the city. We'll make great use of his mega-missionary abilities later; or we could bulb religious philosophy.

Turn 8: Oops! I forgot to manage Constantinople's unhappiness and now it has an unhappy citizen. Luckily, this turn it finished the war galley, so I start a hippodrome and send the war galley to protect those crabs.

Turn 9: Crash to Desktop when I tried to contact Armenia; don't konw if this is related to the new patch. Fortunately, I have an autosave for turn 8, which I load and repeat my actions.
2nd time around, nothing intersting other than worker movements.

Turn 10: Signed open borders with Armenia, no CTD. Not much else to say.

Next player needs to think about raising the research rate. We still need a permanent solution for defending Damascus.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

What about fulfilling our historical precedent of giving away Sevasteia? (Alright, it's not exactly to Ashot, and it didn't happen till later, but Basil's alive now instead of in the 1000's, so what's wrong with a hundred years or so early?)
Besides, if we're so concerned about maintenance and science, that would be the perfect solution.

The hippodrome is a good thing--we can hire artists with it if we don't get to raze the dreaded Samanid cultural bomb.

 

[Jusos2108]

AP, you are exaggerating the significance of this single action. We should lose the mercs soon, which will impact our economy much more.

 

[blizzrd]

Turn 0: 870AD
We start with 116g + 16gpt @0% Science. Long-distance trade is a distant 1217 turns away. Bulb Religious Philosophy with our Great Saint so that we can start on the House of Wisdom before Abbasids build it. Move our Swordsman out of Damaskos towards Edessa. Trade Fish to Abbasids for 2gpt. Demand 20g from Abbasids. Dismiss our Varangian Guard. Dismiss our Shinakan Archer. Move an Archer up from Dorylaion towards Adrianopolis. Split Bulgar Horseman from Workers and move back south towards Damascus. Move the Spear out from Attaleia towards Tarsos. Move Science back up to 10%. Finish with 136g + 10gpt @ 10% Science. Long-distance trade in 82 turns.

Turn 1: 872AD
We are the largest civilisation. Abbasids are 2nd. Armenians are 7th. A Rebel Javelinman approaches Damaskus. Bulgar Horseman will intercept.

Turn 2: 874AD
Bulgar Raider destroys Rebel Javelineman outside Damaskus. Turcopole Horse Archer captures a Rebel Worker W of Edessa. A Muslim Axeman spawns E of Sevasteia.

Turn 3: 876AD
Hippodrome completed in our capital, Orthodox Church next. Market finished in Sevasteia, Barracks next. Horse Archer pillages Hamlet near Edessa. Science up to 20%. Our economy is now 165g -3gpt. Long-distance trade in 38 turns.

Turn 4: 878AD
Granary finished in Ankyra, Barracks next. Trapezounta finishes Lighthouse, Orthodox Church next.

Turn 5: 880AD
Tarsos finishes Archer, starts on House of Wisdom. Archer heads for Damaskus.

Turn 6: 882AD
On defense, our Archer in Sevasteia kills a Muslim Swordsman.

Turn 7: 884AD
Spread Orthodoxy in Damaskus. Our Horse Archer destroys a Muslim Axeman outside of Damaskus. Our Swordsman kills a Rebel Archer inside Edessa (gives us +9.7% influence).

Turn 8: 886AD
Kaisareia finishes Market, starts Granary.

Turn 9: 888AD
Byzantine revolt occurs in Edessa.

Spoiler :

Turn 10: 890AD
Ankyra finishes Barracks, starts Heroic Epic. Our defenses are still a little thin so I hire a Level 4 Turcopole Horse Archer with Mobility to help cover some of our more vulnerable cities for the next little bit.

To do:
1. Defend against Barbs around Adrianopolis.
2. Sure up defenses a bit more.
3. Build religious buildings once we have Spiral Minaret.
4. Prioritize either by stealing from Abbasids (via Great Spy if we get one) or learn for ourselves Crucible Steel next. I think we will have to learn it for ourselves.

 

[Jusos2108]

That was quick!
I assume that we are back to the original roster, so I'll play later today. Please discuss your ideas before that, Otherwise I'll just go with Blizzrd's notes.

 

[blizzrd]

That was quick!
I assume that we are back to the original roster, so I'll play later today. Please discuss your ideas before that, Otherwise I'll just go with Blizzrd's notes.

It doesn't matter greatly I guess, but I had swapped the roster in the OP to reflect the order in which the first 5 turn sets were taken. I guess AP has a somewhat limited amount of time to speak up on the subject!

 

[blizzrd]

I hit end-turn after the save and Edessa flips to us straight away. I believe it should be disbanded. Just wanted to put that on the record.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

AP, you are exaggerating the significance of this single action. We should lose the mercs soon, which will impact our economy much more.

What's not to like? Can you name any other action that would
1. Boost our science by 10% (i.e. make techs cheaper by about 10%) for 200 years
2. Decrease maintenance and probably allow us to up the science % by 10
3. Gain friends and influence people?
4. Allow us to trade resources with Armenia earlier (due to the roads connecting Constantinople to Sevasteia--and the AI loves to build roads)
It's almost like a mini-national wonder, this act of generosity that we choose not to do.
(If it were me, I would have just built military units out of Sevasteia for the first 150 years, give it to Armenia, and conquer it back when it flip s to Rum).

Go ahead and play Jusos, I can't do it till tomorrow.

 

[rrosen]

For the record, I support AP on this matter.

 

[Jusos2108]

Okey, I'll play.
As I have mentioned before, the science penalty for owning more than ten cities in SoI is lower than it is in RFC, so the numbers are incorrect. The maintenace is around -3 gold anyways, so it wouldn't allow our science to go up 10%. Also Armenia will be our friend anyways. Actually I believe that with a little work Sevasteia will be self supported and also with the nice production it has, it can build units to encounter the Seljuks and Mongols later.

 

[Jusos2108]

Turn 0 I micromanage Tarsos, so that we'll get the House of Wisdom in 10 turns instead of the previous 12.

Turn 1 Edessa flips to us and it is disbanded. Mine is completed next to Tarsos, so we'll get the HoW in 8 turns. Spiral Minaret will be done in 6. Our Moesian Rider heads south to meet the Makurians.

Turn 2 Bulgars appear in Thrace and a rebel peasant near Dorylaion.

Turn 3 Bulgarian Rider is killed.

Turn 4 Another Bulgarian Rider is killed. Sinope completes a granary, starts Ort. Monastery.

Turn 5 Two Bulgarian Axemen are killed. Smyrna completes Ort. Church, next granary. Attaleia builds a market, next archer.

Turn 6 The Spiral Minaret is completed in Damascus! Sevasteia completes an Archer, next horseman to relieve one of our mercs.

Spoiler :

Turn 7 Kaisareia builds a granary, next barracks.

Turn 8 Attaleia completes the archer, next granary. Dorylaion finishes a market, next granary.

Turn 9 Muslim swordman is killed. House of Wisdom is completed in Tarsos! Next library. We meet Makuria, who willing to vassalise. Instead I ask them for 1gpt per turn.

Spoiler :

Turn 10 Smyrna completes granary, next Hippodrome. Makuria asks to become our vassal, I say: "Merkurios, your crappy and distant villages would only drag our economy, go milk a cow." The incense near Damascus is hooked into our trade network, which means more ! We have accumulated some espionage against the Abbasids, so Kaisareia starts a spy. Our economy has improved quite a bit and at 30% science we are making +5gpt. Long Distance Trade is due in 9 turns.


Notes and suggestions:
-Keep contact with the Makurians until we get LDT, then the Moesian Rider should head to India, it must go through Kurdistan to get there.
-Crucible Steel next?
-Get the spy in to a Abbasid city, another one should go soon after it. Hopefully they have captured Musul, I forgot to check. We might even consider liberating some city with orthodoxy to them.
-We should steal Education first, if they have it.

 

[rrosen]

Looking good! It is now 45 turns until 1000 AD?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK since everybody else is gung-ho on keeping our empire intact, I'm not going to give away Sevasteia. For the record, if we give away Sevasteia, the current tech can be researched in 8 turns with +12 gold, compared to 9 turns with +5 gold now. Multiply that for 200 years (from the time Armenia appears when we can gift them the city till we conquer it back from Rum)...and that equals almost a full tech.

1: Uneventful.
2. Rebel peasant appears near Amastris. I send the extra archer from Sinopi and the Cicilian horse archer from Ankyra to meet it. I find that Sur is only defended by a single archer so I send our supped up swordsman to go raze it.
3. Archer defends successfully against the stupid peasant.
4. Ach, Makuria vassalizes to Abbasids. More Thracian barbs near Adrianopolis.
5. Sur is captured and razed, and we get 90g. Now Damascus can really grow bigger (the dye is under our control).

6. Refugees arrive in Damascus.

Tsar Simeon is killed outside Adrianopolis, but 3 more Bulgarian raiders appear...
7. ...and we kill them all. Smyrna finishes lighthouse, and I start Narekavank there (since it's going to be a great person factory for us). Heroic Epic finishes in Ankyra. Great saint born in Constantinople. I decide to settle him as the Patriarch of Constantinople, since it's still really early in the game (and the money he'll bring us will be good).
8. At last, our first learned tech! We get a free caravan with it.


It appears both Armenia and Makuria have Botany. Abbasids have Botany, Education and Crucible Steel. I trade for Botany + 20 g from Makuria with Astrolabe (the least useful tech for them since they nowhere close to water!). I also recall our mercenary from the dreadful heat in Egypt. Crucible Steel next.

9. A newly built horseman kills a Muslim Horseman just outside Kaisereia.
10. Damascus' borders expand. We can work multiple tiles there. Ankyra starts Tannery (5 turns) (it won't detract from its health since it's such a small city, relatively speaking) which will help troop production a lot.

To do:
1. A caravan is on its way to Armenia. A spy is on its way to Iraq.
2. The Seljuks will appear soon and we'd better have enough troops near Sevasteia to counter them.
3. Interestingly, Smyrna is our most productive city (Narekavank in 14 turns there).
4. Trapezounta can really use some farms south of it. Just be careful to protect the workers.
5. After Crucible steel, I would do Engineering, and build Kutlag-timur in either Damascus or Tarsus (need Islam to build it).
6. Next turn, Merkurios learns Cash Cropping--we should trade for it.