[Sword of Islam]: Byzantine Conquest

[blizzrd]

Your plan for Golden Age sounds good to me.
What's the correct playing order now? The original or the modified?

Either/or - you and AP sort it out!

 

[Jusos2108]

So AP, can we keep the original order? It has burned on my retina.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Sure, just have blizzrd change it back to the original order.

I was just thinking about declaring war on Buyids or Abbasids...I usually like to annoy the Abbasids and haughty Seljuks by befriending the former. In fact, I remember trading guilds to the Buyids and they survived the Mongols and Seljuks.
Buyids don't have the inherent animosity built in their profile--once you make some good trades with them and OB, they stay pleased and will trade fairly. Too bad they die so soon...

 

[Jusos2108]

Great, so I'll play later today and post back tomorrow at the latest.

About Buyids, I have noticed the same. When playing as Gujarat or Chauhans, it is very lucrative to contact the Buyids and befriend them. They are fairly advanced compared to the Chauhans for example.

 

[Jusos2108]

I won't spark the Golden Age just yet. It will be perfectly timed to begin after my set. After Selective Breeding is in, I'll go for Engineering.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

What's so good about OR after switching to theocracy? I would rather switch to Persecution (if we're sure we don't want any Islam in Asia Minor) for the espionage bonus. OR is high maintenance, and there are quite a few waves of barbs we have to eliminate.
I usually switch to OR during golden age (to get the building bonus) but switch back to theocracy at the end for the lower maintenance.

 

[blizzrd]

There is so much infrastructure and so many wonders still to be built in all of our cities, that OR is more beneficial than the other options in this civic category in my opinion. Apart from a quick burst of Cataphract building, there isn't that much military production that we are going to need, and the maintenance cost is worth it for the building/wonder production boost that it provides.

 

[blizzrd]

Interestingly, if we accept Makuria as our vassal, Armenia will then trade Mosaic Art to us. Go figure!

 

[AnotherPacifist]

There is so much infrastructure and so many wonders still to be built in all of our cities, that OR is more beneficial than the other options in this civic category in my opinion. Apart from a quick burst of Cataphract building, there isn't that much military production that we are going to need, and the maintenance cost is worth it for the building/wonder production boost that it provides.

In that case, we really need a great general so that Ankyra can produce doubly promoted troops WITHOUT theocracy.
(Singly promoted troops are really useless against the Mongols, I've found, especially the catapults).

Speaking of catapults, can we try to get some going before we do the cataphracts?

 

[blizzrd]

In that case, we really need a great general so that Ankyra can produce doubly promoted troops WITHOUT theocracy.
(Singly promoted troops are really useless against the Mongols, I've found, especially the catapults).

Speaking of catapults, can we try to get some going before we do the cataphracts?

Barracks + Stables = double promoted troops. Theocracy gives +2 again for 7XP.

Catapults are completely unnecessary for both Mongols and Seljuk Sultanate of Rum. Cataphracts all the way.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But 2-3 cheap catapults will allow cataphracts to have a much better chance against Mongols with fewer losses. Cataphracts are expensive (60 hammers), catapults aren't as much (50).
The Mongols' 2 first strikes makes the apparent probability of winning deceptive. I've lost about 1 in 4 battles with superior odds against them when they aren't damaged by catapults.

You really want your cataphracts to survive so that they can get their 3rd promotion (against missile cavalry).

BTW, when the Mongols show up, we'd better have noble horsemen and heavy lancers (again, much more expensive compared to cheaper catapults).

Also, doubly promoted trebuchets knock down city walls much quicker.
Another trick is that some catapults might flip to Rum, and if they get one, they usually try to knock down the city walls first, which gives us time to kill the units outside the cities in case we have a logistical problem getting cataphracts to the right place.
Jusos help me out here.

 

[blizzrd]

But 2-3 cheap catapults will allow cataphracts to have a much better chance against Mongols with fewer losses. Cataphracts are expensive (60 hammers), catapults aren't as much (50).
The Mongols' 2 first strikes makes the apparent probability of winning deceptive. I've lost about 1 in 4 battles with superior odds against them when they aren't damaged by catapults.
Also, doubly promoted trebuchets knock down city walls much quicker.
Another trick is that some catapults might flip to Rum, and if they get one, they usually try to knock down the city walls first, which gives us time to kill the units outside the cities in case we have a logistical problem getting cataphracts to the right place.
Jusos help me out here.

Cataphracts will be operating at about 88% vs Mongols/Rum. Most Cataphracts will need to be disbanded even if they win battles if they finish inside Rum territory because otherwise they will flip and Rum will stay alive.

We have no enemy city walls that need taking down right now and won't have later either because we will be refusing all flips!

 

[AnotherPacifist]

How do you get 88% cataphract with base strength 7(even double strength) vs. Mongol horse archer (base strength 8, with 2 first strikes and collateral damage)?

 

[Science Rules]

You really want your cataphracts to survive so that they can get their 3rd promotion (against missile cavalry).

I think switching to theocracy at some point would still be really worthwhile as it means our cavalry are only 3xp from the third promotion.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Maybe the Minaret of Jam isn't so useless after all (it would be 2XP from 3rd promotion if we build cavalry with theocracy).
But above all, a settled great general would solve all our problems.
We should bulb the great priest for religious unity (or just take a little detour after Engineering) and trade for Mosaic Art.

We should also get the Tomb of Khalid for easier vassalizations.

 

[Jusos2108]

I usually have couple catapults against the Rum, but the Mongols are a whole different world and I wouldn't even put these two in the same sentence. Rum can be dealt easily, by defying the flip and letting them conquer Sevasteia. This basicly nails their stack in there, which means that you can take all the time in the world to gather troops and patiently crush them inside their beloved capital. Naturally Konya is razed almost before it is even founded (such a crappy capital).

Minaret of the Jam is great because you can get triple promoted units with just two settled generals. And cavalry & archery units only need one settled GG.

Also, I strongly favor OR after short burst with theocracy

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Just 2 catapults (with collateral damage maximized) will lower the strength of a stack of 4-6 Mongols by at least 15-20%. (obviously, more with 3 catapults) Your chances of killing them without losing an expensive unit just went up by at least that much. The weakest Mongol in that stack can often be mopped up by outdated units that can be deleted afterwards without loss of stability.

 

[Jusos2108]

Turn 0 I move the eastern horse stack inside our borders, this saves us 2gpt.

Turn 1 Church finished in Amastris, next blacksmith.

Turn 2 Selective Breeding is in, next Engineering (10 turns). Adrianopolis finishes church, next stable. Tarsos finishes blacksmith, next market. Barb peasant is killed near Ankyra and our horseman gets third promotion, this will definetly be skirmish. I upgrade the sheep deal with the Abbasids to 4gpt.

Turn 3 Ankyra finishes archery range, next stable. Sinop builds barracks, next stable.

Turn 4 Constantinople finishes library, next university. Dorylaion finishes blacksmith, next barracks. Kaisareia builds tannery, next stable. Damascus finishes blacksmith, next Al-Azhar (due in 26 turns).

Turn 5 Attaleia finishes church, next stable. We kill one muslim swordman.

Turn 6 We get the first UHV condition, I would hate to say that I told you so.

Turn 7 We kill two barb swordmen. Adrianopolis finishes stable, next catapracht. Ankyra builds stable, next catapracht. Sevasteia constructs blacksmith, next stable. Jews settle Damascus.

Turn 8 Ashot wants to vassalise, I refuse. Smyrna finishes blacksmith, next fairground. Dorylaion builds barracks, next stable. Sinop builds stable, next library.

Turn 9 We get the three local factions event, I choose to take the money, we get around 80 gold. Kaisareia finishes stable, next catapracht. Ashot trades Mosaic Art and 10 gold to us for Long Distance Trade and Crucible Steel.

Spoiler :

Turn 10 Our first, of many, catapracht is finished in Ankyra! Our spy arrives in Samarra. Georgia is born, we have istant contact.

Notes and suggestions:
-If we raise our science to 100% and change Attaleia to build research, we'll get Engineering in one turn. This means that Tarsos can start building the Kutlug-Timur right after it finishes the market on the next turn.
-Should we go for guilds next? Other consirable alternative is Crop Rotation.
-We should spark the Golden Age soon, maybe even on my last turn.

 

[blizzrd]

Rum can be dealt easily, by defying the flip and letting them conquer Sevasteia.

There is no way we need to let Rum capture any of our cities. That would be grounds for a redo.

 

[Jusos2108]

I didn't say that we need to let them do that, just saying that that is one easiet way to take them down.