Teach me to whip

No I am not absolutely sure it is 20:hammers:/pop for wonders. I think I read that somewhere but I can't find it.

You are right about using mines; I was responding only to the question of "does Industrious make you more likely to whip" -- it does. If you can get hammers from working tiles, then Industrious favors them, but you cannot always do that. Or put another way: given that it is ever worth whipping a wonder (which we all know it is, since they are races), Industrious makes it the whip more profitable and thus should be used more.
 
Feel free to worlbuilder test it.

Start SH (120 hammers). Put 1 hammer in it and Hit enter. You now need 8 pops to whip it to completion (120/8 = 15) or 6 if you're Industrious (with some overflow of course.)
 
OK, so reviewing the mechanic ( CvCity::getHurryCostModifier ), the three hurry modifiers are all multiplicative, and are calculated prior to the evaluation of any production bonuses that might be in play.

The three modifiers are

iHurryCostModifier, defined in CIV4BuildingInfos.xml, CIV4UnitInfos.xml. This defines the penalty you pay for hurrying a build. Out of the box, no units have a hurry penalty. The early national wonders have a 50% hurry cost, the late national wonders and the world wonders have a 100% hurry cost.

NEW_HURRY_MODIFIER, defined in GlobalDefines.xml. This is the penalty you pay if you have no hammers invested. By default, this is 50%.

CvPlayer.getHurryModifier, is the modifier for a player. This starts at zero, and gets changed each time the player constructs a building which has an interesting iGlobalHurryModifier. Out of the box, only the Kremlin includes this modifier (-33%).


Observation: new hurry modifier and Kremlin cancel each other out; 150% * 67% = 100.5%, which rounds down.

Recollection: In a very early version, there was a rounding bug somewhere - I don't recall exactly where, or who discovered it - which was introduced when somebody used 66/34 where the rounding required 67/33. Edit: or maybe the other way around.
 
Guys, learn to use forum search
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6919506&postcount=100
Originally Posted by malekithe View Post
I was reading over this thread and thought I’d do some experimenting myself. I wound up deriving the formulas for all of the values involved in rushing production. Most of these have been hinted at in other posts, but I thought I'd post my findings. Feel free to try any of these formulas out in-game and let me know if they produce an incorrect result. I'd like to fix them if that's the case.

First I’ll explain my variable names:

H – Total hammers remaining in production
S – Game speed multipler – 0.66... = quick, 1.0 = normal, 1.5 = epic, 3.0 = marathon

Bonuses:
B – Sum of all production bonuses (eg. 0.5 if you have a forge and Organized Religion is applicable)
K – Kremlin Modifier – 0.5 for Kremlin, 1.0 otherwise

Penalties:
W – The wonder modifier – 2.0 for a world wonder, 1.5 for national wonder, 1.0 for everything else
Z – Zero Hammers modifier – 1.5 if this is the first turn of production

Now, the formula for the modified cost of whatever it is you’re rushing ([…] denotes the “floor” operation)

C = [ H / ( 1+B) * K * W * Z ]

Basically, you just multiply everything together, divide by 1+B, and then take the floor.

Now, if you want to convert that cost into a population or gold quantity you simply use one of the two simple formulas below.

Pop Rush:
P = [ C / ( 30 * S) + 1 ]

Gold Rush:
G = 3 * S * C

Also, a formula for the number of hammers of overflow you can expect (‘%’ represent the modulo operation)

O = ( 30 – (H % 30) ) % 30

And then, if you really want to know your total output per population point, you need to use one last formula (can’t really reduce it any more because of all the flooring and modulos that took place):

PP = (H + O) / P

The ramifications of all of this have already been hinted at in this thread and others. Namely:

• You don’t want to rush when the number of hammers remaining is a multiple of 30.

• There are additional jump points on other games speeds where your hammers per pop point can change considerably (on epic, no bonuses, 44 hammers remaining requires 1 pop and nets 60 hammers, 45 hammers remaining requires 2 pop and nets the same 60 hammers. That’s a whole second pop point resulting in no additional hammers.)

• You can significantly reduce the rush cost (in population or gold) through city buildings and the Kremlin.

• The Kremlin is the equivalent of a forge, factory, and power in every city (for rushing purposes).

• With the Kremlin and simply another 50% city bonus (or just a total city bonus of 200%), you can buy 1 hammer for 1 gold.

• Others, but it’s late and my mind is cloudy… I want to say something along the lines of “In the late-middle-thru-end game, hammers might be next to useless, or, at best, very inefficient”. But, then again, most of my games are over by the time I get grenadiers and cavalry

Just kidding, as always it's a lot of work to find.
 
So having production buildings lowers the cost of rush buying? My newbiness is showing again it seems.

Ignore the rest is you want. I am analyzing the statement of "late hammers are inefficient".
Or you could skip to the bottom for the conclusion.

If both gold and base hammers go through the same multipliers on their way to production (excluding wonders and national wonders) then 3 gold = 1 base hammer, right?

But commerce goes through banks, markets, and grocers (total +100% or x2)

dumping all commerce into gold means 3g=1h 1c=2g 1c=2/3h or 1 commerce is 2/3 of a hammer without Kremlin. Kremlin is -33%=1/3 so 2g=1h, 1c=2g ergo 1c=1h

Meaning, with bank, market, grocer, Kremlin, and 100% tax, a commerce equals a hammer.

Printing press free speech universal suffrage town=7c+1h=8 output with no food penalty.

The fabled uber-workshop is 4h food neutral. Seems that under optimal circumstances, cottages are twice as good as workshops, even discounting riverside and financial.

Without fin/river, cottages=workshops with printing press at village, which is 30 turns on normal (15 with emancipation)

Meaning, with 15 turn setup, cottages=workshops and with 35 turns, they are twice as good, once again ignoring fin/river

Without the Kremlin, towns are still better it seems.


Any mistakes can be chalked up to it being really late.


So, it seems that under optimal circumstances, cottages are way better than production. Still would be wise to keep a production center fro wonders and the like.


Sorry for derailing! I just thought that this was worth elaborating on.
 
So having production buildings lowers the cost of rush buying? My newbiness is showing again it seems.
Ignore the rest is you want. I am analyzing the statement of "late hammers are inefficient".Or you could skip to the bottom for the conclusion.

If both gold and base hammers go through the same multipliers on their way to production (excluding wonders and national wonders) then 3 gold = 1 base hammer, right?

This seemed odd to me as well, so just to be sure i checked in some saves, and apparently (and as expected really), forges do NOT modify the cost of rushbuying (as opposed to whipping, which they , as we all know). For a typical build (not a wonder, already hammers put into it) it's still 3 gold per hammer without kremlin and 2 without.

So in the best case, 2 gold = 1 hammer, not 1 base hammer, so if you go the rushbuying route, you don't need the hammer multipliers.
 
forges do NOT modify the cost of rushbuying

So, once again the uber-workshop is the best source of production possible thanks to hammer multipliers. Oh well, rushbuying still has its place.

As a side note, this makes sense in a way. You would have thought more people would have noticed the otherwise insane potential of rushbuying.
 
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