Tech requirements

[Glutton]

Do anybody already know what are the rules for tech requirements? Because sometimes i need all "predecessors" researched until next tech is researchable. But other time I just need one of them and I can research the next tech. It is making the research planning very difficult and unaffective. If Im rusihg to some technogogy Im never sure what I NEED to reaserch before it. And what can be avoided.

Do anybody find the pattern? Is it somehow connected to the game era (so older technologies became available even without researched required predecessing technologies)? Game year? Total number of researched technologies (that after 10 of them some alder becomes available instantly?) Or is it something else? This part of the game really annoys me.

The worst think is that is seems to be different from game to game. Sometimes I need to research Feudalism to enable Gunpowder to proceed to combustion = tanks. But last game I was able to research combustion without feudalism researched. So Im really confused about this part of the game.

Thanks for any (correct) explanation

 

[vapaach]

On the manual, there reads that you need to research ONE of the required techs to research it. But on certain teches (space flight, for example) as i have played the full game myself, you have to research all of the teches. Not sure how it works, i am actually a bit confused myself too.

 

[Glutton]

Yes... I also read everywhere that technologies are connected with "OR" paths and that you need just one predeccessors. But it is certainly not true.

Best way to see it are the bonus techs, that are gained for some Civ - if you play as a Roman, you have democracy... but you can not research the next one.
And it applyes even to the others.

But I noticed, that these requirements are changing. Sometimes you need for example or three previous tech researched. On the other gameplay, for the same tech, you jsut nedd one (and even the very old for example) and it is enough.

So in my opinion, this have to do something with the overall progress of the game. Like with the current era, game year, total number of researched technologies, number of cities or something like that.
Meaning that if you want to reaserch something as soon as possible you need ALL required previous technologies. If you start researching some others... after some time... he desired technology becomes available even without fullfilling all requirements.

But Im still missing some pattern. And I have some favourite unit that I want to research as soon as possible .And if I know that it is somehow possible to avoid some research, but there is no info how - it is really annoying :-(

 

[RemoWilliams]

I've never been able to research without having all prerequisites, but some others have complained about the same thing. In my case, I'm a little annoyed I can't get Industrialization right after Banking, like Vale sometimes can.

Here's a link to the 2k forums. 2kElizabeth says she'll look into it for us.

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=297915#post297915

Here's the thread where Vale mentions the direct jump from Banking->Industrialization

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=278670

 

[Glutton]

So if this seems to be a bug... mybe I should tak camera and start with taking screenshots :-/

 

[vapaach]

So if this seems to be a bug... mybe I should tak camera and start with taking screenshots :-/

I don`t think it is a bug.It might be, but i just think that there is something that we don`t understand. By the way, have you noticed that there are those green "1"`s at some teches at your tech tree?Does that mean that you invented it first or what?

 

[PosSibley]

I don`t think it is a bug.It might be, but i just think that there is something that we don`t understand. By the way, have you noticed that there are those green "1"`s at some teches at your tech tree?Does that mean that you invented it first or what?

You are correct, a 1 indicates no one else has researched it yet and you can get a First to Discover bonus.

I've noticed 2 things (other than prerequisites) that I believe effect whether you can research or not: your current science production potential, and your current research level.

I was playing and had both prerequisites for banking, and only 1 for university (same research tier as banking) and was allowed to get banking but not university. After researching banking, university was an option, because I was more on par with that research tier even though my science production rate had not changed.

Early game starting as Egyptians, if you end up with a colossus, and go straight for a library first, you'll notice you can start opening up sciences (that normally need 2 prerequisites) quicker, because your large science production early makes enough of a difference to notice.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'm pretty sure your science production rate does not change it, your number of techs might (And the Egyptians get a free Irrigation early on, that probably changes it.

I believe
1. the # of prerequisites affects it
2. the Era you are in (compared to the level of the tech)
3. the techs you have in that level

 

[sigmakan]

Over on the 2K boards Elizabeth gave some insight into how the tech tree works. Its still a little fuzzy and I think I've already found a case where it doesnt follow the rules, but its a start!

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18629

 

[PosSibley]

Over on the 2K boards Elizabeth gave some insight into how the tech tree works. Its still a little fuzzy and I think I've already found a case where it doesnt follow the rules, but its a start!

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18629

Thanks for the linker! It had basically everything I wanted to know "straight from the horses mouth".

first, on www.civilizationrevolution.com i have two charts, and one details all the info you need to know about how to get technologies.

second, prerequisites are not an "AND." they are an "OR." so, if you see that you need 2 techs to get to another, you can research EITHER of them to unlock it. also, certain techs will not show up on your list if you are in the wrong era for them (so it's too soon to get them) OR if it takes past a certain number of turns to research it AND you don't have all the prerequisites for it. if this is the case, what you need to do is build more cities or build up your science so that it is "cheaper" to get these techs.

so in short, the prerequisites are an "or" statement, and as long as you are in the proper age, are productive enough, and are willing to spend a lot, you CAN get almost any tech. you will be able to get a tech faster/with less science if you research the prerequisites, but if you want to tech jump to something more advanced before getting the lower-level stuff, you can. it will just take more science to do so.

Now I have to learn what techs are for what era and find a rudimentary method of guessing what kind of tech rate I need to avoid some pre-reqs.

 

[sigmakan]

I posted this over there:

Newsflash!

Ok, just did some quick tests. Important points:

*You need to be able to finish a tech in 10 turns or less in order for it to be unlocked when only having 1 prereq. Example:
Alphabet > Literacy. Literacy was available when I was going 9 beakers a turn, but not 8. Its inflated beaker cost is 90. 90/9 = 10 turns. At this point in time I'm assuming that this is a constant rule, but I will test it further.

*Inflated tech costs(required beakers when using only 1 prereq) are not scaled evenly. Examples:
Currency - 80b->90b
Irrigation - 60b->70b
Literacy - 60b->90b

This explains why in my previous screenshot I was able to research Irrigation but not Literacy. Gimme some time and I'll figure out all the inflated tech costs, but there are definately some techs where its worth beelining because of small inflation (Irrigation) and some that its not worth it (Literacy).

Not sure how techs that have 3 prereqs work (Monarchy) but I'll investigate that as well.

Enjoy! Figured I'd give you guys some crumbs to munch on.

EDIT: I updated the spreadsheet. You can check it over on the 2K forums.

 

[Glutton]

sigmakan:
Hmm... that seems liek some nice explanation. Like you need only one prerequisity if you are able to research it in 10 turns.
And you need all of them if you not.

Or maybe you are able to research only techs < 10 turns. And if it is locked and you research more of the prerequisities... it will become cheaper and under 10 turns. In fact Im not sure if I eve was some tech that takes more that 9 turns to research (expect the first ones)

But it is still strange, that Firaxis are not able to expain it. And if there is such a rule, why it is not in the complex Civilopedia?

 

[sigmakan]

2K Elizabeth's post (reposted above) does explain it all. I just put some numbers to it. Here is the sheet:

EDIT: You can get the image from 2K forums. Theres been too much copying info without crediting going on.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

But it is still strange, that Firaxis are not able to expain it. And if there is such a rule, why it is not in the complex Civilopedia?

Because Civilization has always had terrible documentation. (for every thing they tell you about the game, there are 3 simple things they DON'T tell you)

 

[PaperBeetle]

Re: free techs ("backfilling" to use sigmakan's phrase from the 2k forums, where I am not yet registered)... I am working on the theory that any time you complete a tech, you get backfilled, for a cost of 0 beakers, any techs which are so cheap that you could research them in one turn. Actually, I haven't yet tested whether this backfill can occur during a turn in which you don't complete a tech. Anyway, if the theory is correct, the implication would be that it is preferable to have your whole empire abandon food and shields every so often, and maximise beakers just for a turn. Bag a load of freebies, and then back to normal running.

 

[sigmakan]

Re: free techs ("backfilling" to use sigmakan's phrase from the 2k forums, where I am not yet registered)... I am working on the theory that any time you complete a tech, you get backfilled, for a cost of 0 beakers, any techs which are so cheap that you could research them in one turn. Actually, I haven't yet tested whether this backfill can occur during a turn in which you don't complete a tech. Anyway, if the theory is correct, the implication would be that it is preferable to have your whole empire abandon food and shields every so often, and maximise beakers just for a turn. Bag a load of freebies, and then back to normal running.

Definitely. Its also worthwile to increase your beaker production before a tech is finished so you can 'unlock' another tech if you want to beeline for it. There is a 1 turn delay in locking and unlocking techs. For example if my research was +6 beakers a turn, Literacy would be locked for me, but if I micro'd some cities so it was at +9 it would still be locked UNTIL next turn.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Next observation: the rule governing skip costs would seem to be that the increase in cost for researching a tech without its prerequisite is equal to the base value of the tech skipped, minus 10 beakers. In other words, it is not much of a saving to jump your way up the tech tree, rather than working your way through all the prereqs for the tech you are ultimately interested in.

Edit: except that it would be a much better saving if you were doing a really long jump. For example, jumping straight to Feudalism from Riding costs an extra 110 beakers (the cost of Monarchy - 10). So if you already have Riding, Burial and Laws, then you might as well pay the extra 10 beakers and research Monarchy before Feudalism. After all, you would probably make back the 10 beakers soon enough by activating your dyes. But if you didn't have Monarchy's prereqs either, then the jump becomes much more valuable.
Mind you, wrt this particular example, I suppose Feudalism is a medieval tech, so you still need more than just Riding to unlock it... how many techs are needed to be declared medieval. Only 6 or something weird like that?

 

[sigmakan]

Next observation: the rule governing skip costs would seem to be that the increase in cost for researching a tech without its prerequisite is equal to the base value of the tech skipped, minus 10 beakers. In other words, it is not much of a saving to jump your way up the tech tree, rather than working your way through all the prereqs for the tech you are ultimately interested in.

Edit: except that it would be a much better saving if you were doing a really long jump. For example, jumping straight to Feudalism from Riding costs an extra 110 beakers (the cost of Monarchy - 10). So if you already have Riding, Burial and Laws, then you might as well pay the extra 10 beakers and research Monarchy before Feudalism. After all, you would probably make back the 10 beakers soon enough by activating your dyes. But if you didn't have Monarchy's prereqs either, then the jump becomes much more valuable.
Mind you, wrt this particular example, I suppose Feudalism is a medieval tech, so you still need more than just Riding to unlock it... how many techs are needed to be declared medieval. Only 6 or something weird like that?

Very nice observation. I think it comes down to:

Its worthwhile to tech jump when you dont have the prereqs of a prereq, but its not worthwhile if you are able to research the prereqs (if that makes any sense). Also, its obviously worth beelining certain techs if its part of your grand strategy.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well a way I could see 'backfilling' working

Tech is 'backfilled' (either for 0 beakers or as a subtraction of your beakers produced) when
1. all/ a certain # of its 'postrequisites' (things that it has arrows to) are researched
2. it is in a previous era to the one you are now
3. your research is say 3-10x more than it costs

all of those seem like good options as they are similar to the 'unlocking' ones

 

[sigmakan]

I've only been able to backfill in the first two columns which leads me to believe your current research rate needs to be atleast greater than the cost of the tech. I'll play around with it when I get the chance.