tech tree redesign

[davidlallen]

We have gone through three stages of evolution on the tech tree, and I think we are getting a little stuck. The 1.0 tech tree was a "repaint" of vanilla, substituting wikipedia names for different vanilla techs without making much underlying change. In 1.1 through 1.4 we have tweaked the tech tree, moving one or two things around based on playtest feedback. In 1.4.1 and 1.4.3 and keldath's latest tree from yesterday, we have done several more substantial "refoldings", moving things around a lot.

But fundamentally we are not getting a "good" tech tree out of this. We are just removing some of the least logical things at each revision.

I think we need to *design* a new tech tree from scratch. This is a big project, and it cannot be conveniently done by a distributed team. Somebody needs to do it, write a proposal, and incorporate feedback. Once that is done it can be implemented in the xml.

The purpose of a tech tree, fundamentally, is to space out all the interesting items so you don't get them all at the beginning. The things that go into the tech tree are buildings, wonders, units, improvements and civics; some promotions. These things already have some "progressions"; for example, a small unit comes first, then a medium size one, then a large one. But there are many such progressions that need to be all interleaved.

I think the first step is to assume for the moment, we will freeze the buildings and units, and use the civics from Ahriman's adjacent thread. If *everything* is still being changed, then *nothing* can move along safely. Then we need to list out all the existing progressions, and decide approximately what tech tier (x position on the tech chooser screen) is appropriate. Then cluster some items which are related and at about the same position, into techs. Then create lines of techs.

I have never done a tech tree from scratch. Anybody else?

Perhaps we can consolidate what we have into a 1.5 release and fix some of the known bugs in this, without worrying about the tech tree. Then at least people can play 1.5 with some reasonable success. In parallel, we can design and tweak a new tech tree.

I will go back to the "incremental patch discussion" thread to discuss what we should fix for 1.5. Let's start discussing about a new tech tree here.

 

[keldath]

hi, good idea on this thread...

its a bit harsh do do it from scratch, but its doable.

i will be happy to do all the xml work myself.

but, all i need is a blue print, if someone will be willing to build this blue print with excel - just making a flow chart on it, and ill implement it into the xml. its the easiest way to build a tree from scratch.
and i think someone thats familiar with the dune concepts and time flow should do it, after making the first draft - it can be uploaded here, and everyone wil go over it, making fixes and then after we get to agreement - i will implement it to the xml.


further more, i think the tech tree is the first thing thats needs to be completed before moving to other things, cause eventually everything starts and ends with it.
so i believe we should all put our effort to finalize the tree, cause otherwise we will keep going on circles.

really hope you guys think like me...dont you guys want already to have your first game with dune mod v 1.5 ???? cammon people lets go forward!

 

[Ahriman]

Ok, I will have a quick swing at a total redesign and try to get some feedback.

 

[davidlallen]

Using "1.4.4.1" or "1.4.5", let me take one hour or so and put together a list of all the existing units, buildings, improvements and civics. These objects will need to be placed into the tech tree. The spreadsheet will contain one line for each object, giving the name, category (unit, building, wonder, improvement) and existing x-position in tech tree.

EDIT: attached file.

 

[Ahriman]

Will incorporate these.
I'm also merging this tree with my civics and religion changes.
Will have this in maybe 40 mins. I have a ~78 tech tree, adding in requirements now.

 

[keldath]

wow you guys work fast huh?

78 techs ...mmm ok, i would be happier if it was 80-85 techs...but...im going with the flow.

i cant wait to see, its more then i wished for if your also putting in all the items on the techs.

i sure hope that theres enogh room between unit classes.

 

[Ahriman]

Ok, whew! Longer than I expected.

See Excel workbook attached. Note that this tech-tree is designed to go with the civics and religion changes.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=330907
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=331036
These still need some more work too.

This tech-tree will need more unit tweaking and some more stuff at the top end maybe, but I think it looks MUCH more logical than the current one. Its pretty obvious what most techs represent from their name alone, and there are some reasonably logical progressions while still allowing some interesting strategic (and thematic) choices (I hope).

When reading the sheet:
Descriptions tab and Tree tab are the main things to look at.
Categories was a mental thing during my design process.

Final count is 92 techs. Probably a few could be cut (plas-steel as distinct from plas-steel armor), but not that many.

*edit*
Forum doesn't like Excel.

 

[davidlallen]

I was thinking "days" or "weeks" to get this done, not "hours". On paper, it looks great. Getting it into the xml will pose some challenge, and we may want to tweak it some after that. But I agree with the paper design.

Ahriman, do you want to add costs?

The first challenge in implementing it will be to lay out the exact grid, with x,y locations and making sure the arrows do not cross. Using AND-prereqs will be needed to prevent crossings, but should be minimized.

Keldath, do you want to try setting up the x,y grid, also maybe in excel? Or do you want somebody else to do that?

It will be necessary to enter the civics and religions at the same time, and also to modify all the prereqtechs in the units, builds, buildings files. So at least those five files should be considered "locked". It will also be hard to split those jobs among multiple people in parallel.

Keldath, do you want to take on this whole project? If you have some suggestions about a way to split it up, I can do a small piece, but combining the work at the end will be hard.

I have made some small bug fixes in several of those files, but I am happy to keep my changes aside until the tech tree is entered. I have listed a few current projects on the incremental patches thread, which I will continue on with.

 

[Ahriman]

It will definitely need tweaking, but it can be hard to do this without really seeing it in-game.

I can add beaker costs, I'll work roughly from the current build.

Since displayed beakers vary by difficultly level, I will work from the Chieftan difficult level, which seems to be closest to the beaker costs displayed from the main menu (at chieftain, desert insects is displayed as 97 beakers, at warlord its displayed as ~116 beakers, in the Dune-O-Pedia its displayed as 100 beakers, which is what I assume its real tech cost is that you want in the design document.

*edit*
Added attachment, new version including beaker costs and a few minor requirement tweaks

 

[davidlallen]

It is really hard to explain what we need to do when you are reluctant to view xml in your notepad. I am not sure what recalculation happens when the values get displayed in the tech chooser. In the xml, assets/xml/technologies/civ4techinfos.xml, you can see the iCost field for each tech. For example, Zensunni Teachings costs 100, Way of Believers costs 80 in the XML. So you could base your values on this.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, I can look at some xml in notepad, but I think thats the same as the values you get from viewing in the Dune-O-Pedia from the main menu.

Opening a game at warlord difficulty has way of believers at 78. This is what I based things off.

Costs edited in above, but they're very rough; I tried to have costs represent tech power and whether I wanted a particular thing to be available earlier or later, but I didn't do a thorough job of checking total costs to particular units.

 

[keldath]

hi guys,
superb work, its more then i wished for.

i will take this project on me, the whole thing.

ill start today,
guess it will take me two three days.

dont worry about the x's and Y's,
ill arrange the tree in a good way.

ill implement all the assignments of the items onto it.


ahriram thank you vry much,

anybody, if you have more suggestions then plz do,
i want us to lock the tree, or at least its core structure.

92 is a good number!

 

[Deliverator]

Great work, Ahriman.

If you want to take the plunge with XML, I would recommend installing Notepad++ and the XML plugin for it.

 

[keldath]

hey guys,
ive started working on ahrirams doc,

so far i renamed almost half of the techs, im working systematically,
its tons of work,

it will take me a few days, but it wil be exactly like the doc describes,

so i would appreciate if any of you can go over the excel file and try to visioulize the tree, and see whats need some tweakes,
cause it would be a killer to do this again.....

 

[Ahriman]

I think the tree makes sense to me, but I made it, so I am possibly too invested to see major flaws. I think it will need a close look from others, then bring up any issues and I can explain if they were deliberate design intentions (eg like the Golden Path religion being a very late-game high tier religion, but with its pre-requisites being a looong way back, so you can beeline for it earlier if you like; or how you can get things with either Mentat logic/mind training OR with genetic maniupation; either normal mentats, or twisted mentats; or how you can get solar power or wind power but don't have to get both) or just oversights.

 

[davidlallen]

so i would appreciate if any of you can go over the excel file and try to visioulize the tree, and see whats need some tweakes, cause it would be a killer to do this again.....

I agree this is painful, but it is very important to the mod. Short of performing the whole layout myself and looking at it, I do not think I will have any more feedback. The progression of units seems fine, the number and type of new things available for each tech seems fine. I am sure that the "tech lines" aspect will be more clear once the layout is done, but it seems Ahriman has put thought into that as well.

I have a little time available; would it help if I entered the new design for civics? I don't want to make things more complicated to merge. Let me know if you want me to enter that part. I can either send you the one changed file, or keep it for my merge of 1.4.7 after you release 1.4.6.

 

[keldath]

davidlallen,

i think i can take care of the xml aspect,
you guys can fill in the tree in the excel sheet and send me the updates, for start im gonna finish the tree itself then ill start assigning stuff according to the sheet.

ahriram,
there some techs that leads to nothing, i think all tech should lead towards something, first ill work out what you designs after that - ill write what i offer to link those techs.

 

[davidlallen]

you guys can fill in the tree in the excel sheet and send me the updates, for start im gonna finish the tree itself then ill start assigning stuff according to the sheet.

I do not think either of us is planning on making updates to the excel sheet. Is there information missing which you need?

there some techs that leads to nothing, i think all tech should lead towards something, first ill work out what you designs after that - ill write what i offer to link those techs.

All tech trees contain techs that don't lead anywhere. This includes vanilla, all mods I have played, and existing DW. I don't see any problem with this.

 

[keldath]

All tech trees contain techs that don't lead anywhere. This includes vanilla, all mods I have played, and existing DW. I don't see any problem with this.

i see, well, personally i Rather have all techs as preqeq to something, but,
im not gonna change the sheet by ahriman, all i wanna do is finish this thing and go on forward to 1.5

if ill need anything ill say, meanwhile im building the tree, got to tier 7 so far.

 

[Ahriman]

There are many techs that don't lead anywhere, but this was deliberate design.

Some of the techs just aren't things that would be learned by particular factions; for example, you shouldn't have to research the Golden Path tech if you don't want to, and many factions aren't going to learn about the Water of Life, or genetic manipulation, Atreides or Fremen shouldn't be forced to learn the Interment Camps tech. You shouldn't have to research religious techs if you don't want their stuff. And so on.

I *think* most of the techs that you can avoid either:
a) have nice benefits themselves or
b) are an OR requirement for another tech.

I'd be ok with some of these to pepper them with more "first to reserach gets X" to reward the first guy, and then others can skip it.

There will probably have to be some tweaking, but mostly it looks ok. Are there any particualar techs you're concerned about?